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Author Topic: 17 Quotes from the Torah
The Rabbit
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quote:
Rabbit, I appreciate your honesty, but your post made me very sad.
It makes me very sad as well. I have always held Judaism in high regard and I still do. I think its very unfortunate that my interaction with Lisa has eroded that regard. I recognize its not fully rational, but then respect and regard are emotions and try as I might, my emotions don't necessarily comply with reason.

It was much easier for me when I was convinced that Lisa was actually some actually a neo-nazi troll pretending to be an obnoxious Jew.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You rephrased "Steven isn't one of my people" to "he's not a Jew".

And...? Of course that's what I meant. That's what I said. And if you weren't actively looking for a negative light in which to see everything I say, you never would have suggested otherwise.

quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Perhaps your interpretations are correct, I'm not arguing that. In all cases, the way you rephrase or interpret her statements are less abrasive than what she actually says. And whether its intended or not, that comes off as excusing her by saying "she didn't really mean it that way."

Your interpretation. Did you ever think that maybe part of the problem is you? If a bunch of other people clearly understood what I said, maybe that's because it was clear, and your "misunderstanding" was simply that big ol' chip on your shoulder.

quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
I have explained (this time and many others) why some of the things she says are essentially correct, although not adequately explained or taken out of context.

I appreciate that, but you should be aware that it very often seems like you are make excuses for rude behavior when you do it. Believe it or not, you have not made it clear to me that you think her behavior is unacceptable as a Jew. [/QB]
Should we insist that you explicitly condemn any behavior from anyone who shares whatever your religious beliefs are that you disagree with? This is a garden variety lame excuse for prejudice.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
She put us in a really bad position, and I think it's fair to ask you to see that, even though you are righteously angry/bothered at Lisa. Please don't allow that to cloud your opinion of Rivka or myself, and recognize the position that we need to take here.

Unbelievable. Armoth, you're falling for her games. She wants an excuse to disrespect Judaism. Or rather, to express her disrespect for Judaism. "Some of my best friends are Jews, but you're making me reevaluate that" is a garbage statement, and what Rabbit is saying is the equivalent. Don't let your dislike for the way I express myself blind you to who you're talking to here.
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rivka
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*throws up hands in disgust*

I don't consider her behavior acceptable. Her being Jewish has nothing to do with it.

"My people" (ami) has a specific meaning. Your interpretation ignored that meaning. I clarified. If that is going to be taken as approving of what she said or how she said, I won't bother.

[ November 02, 2009, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]

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The Rabbit
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quote:
She wants an excuse to disrespect Judaism
No I don't. I do not disrespect Judaism. As I said, I hold it in high regard. I am not reevaluating my friendship with Jews. I am trying to make you aware of the harm you do to your religion and your fellow Jews by mixing your religion with rudeness and incivility and using the former to justify the latter.

I know that you will pay no attention to it. I doubt you are capable of that level of self evaluation. But have a great deal of hope that rivka and Armoth will get my point.

quote:
Should we insist that you explicitly condemn any behavior from anyone who shares whatever your religious beliefs are that you disagree with? This is a garden variety lame excuse for prejudice.
Absolutely. If anyone who is LDS is twisting LDS teachings to justify rudeness and incivility, I think it is important for me to make it clear that I condemn their behavior and that they are not accurately representing my religion. If anyone who claims to be Christian is twisting christian teaching to justify being mean, I will not only condemn their behavior but seek to clarify that they are misrepresenting Christian beliefs.

I believe that I have done that here at hatrack on more than one occasion. I believe that on at least on occasion you and I have actually gotten into a row over your assertion that I as a Christian was responsible for crimes committed by other Christians. You are so blinded by your own bigotry that you can barely see the words I type.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
*throws up hands in disgust*

I don't consider her behavior acceptable. Her being Jewish has nothing to do with it.

"My people" (ami) has a specific meaning. Your interpretation ignored that meaning. I clarified. If that is going to be taken as approving of what she said or how she said, I won't bother.

Yes, rivka, I know. You didn't need to clarify in the first place. My interpretation did not ignore that meaning, it focused on the obvious implication. I said nothing about steven when I posted the quote. The fact that Lisa chose to mention that he was not one of her people in response has a very obvious implication. Do you deny that?

And my point was never that your interpretation of Lisa's statement was inaccurate. My point was that by rephrasing what Lisa said in less abrasive words, you sound like you are making excuses for her. If you don't care whether or not you sound like you are making excuses for her, that's your prerogative. But I think you actually do care and don't want to be misunderstood.

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rivka
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I think the fault is in your interpretation, not my explanation. *shrug*
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Geez, Rabbit, they'd have to practically step on her head before you'd be happy.

Sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that this is accurate.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
I don't understand what we are supposed to do Rabbit?
You mostly do a good job. But let me give you a clear example.

You said.

quote:
Lisa is lazy. She is very well thought out, and passionate about what she believes in, and if she believes you are wrong, she will simply tell you that you are without making the effort to come to know you, to meet your mind, and to guide you to her perspective.
I appreciate your attempt to generous here, but this isn't a fair and accurate representation of how Lisa treats people here. She has called me a "monster", "worse than Hitler" and accused me of supporting the mass murder of Jews. She started a thread by calling steven an insulting name. She accused steven of "vileness". Despite her claim, steven and I aren't the only targets of such vicious attacks. Anyone who dares to question one of her sacred cows will experience such an attack. More hatrack threads have been locked on her account than on the account of all other regulars combined.

Those kind of vicious personal attacks aren't "laziness", they aren't "blunt". They are mean and hateful. When she treats me with contempt, when she is vicious and hateful and you come back and say she is "well thought out and passionate about what she believes" -- I am going to see you as making excuses for what I see as morally indefensible behavior.

Can you see what I'm trying to say?

I really don't appreciate being called a vicious anti-semite because I disagree with Lisa.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Geez, Rabbit, they'd have to practically step on her head before you'd be happy.

Sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that this is accurate.
Please rivka, this isn't true. Please consider the history here. Lisa has made some very vicious and utterly uncalled for attacks on my character. She thinks I'm a rabid anti-semite of the kind that would gladly murder Jews in cold blood. That isn't hyperbole -- it is precisely what she has said in the past. I know you condemn her rudeness. Can you at least try to understand why your attempts to soften that rudeness might seem like making excuses for her?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
your attempts to soften that rudeness

That is your interpretation of what I am saying. I have explained repeatedly that it is inaccurate.
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Armoth
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I thought it best to leave this thread for cooling down since I think I understand both Lisa's and Rabbit's points of view.

Rabbit - No one called you an anti-semite. Yes, I saw what you were trying to do and point out to Lisa. You should also realize that your rhetoric about what she does to your opinion of Jews hurt only me and Rivka, in the sense that you needed to explain yourself, and did nothing to pierce Lisa's thick skin.

Realize also that my characterization of Lisa wasn't supposed to be my psychological diagnosis of her. Just a drive-by observation based on her conduct in this thread only.

But don't take this to the next level. I take your points, please take ours. You're expecting too much from Rivka and I. You are explaining that you can't be intellectually honest about your opinion about Judaism because of Lisa, that you fail to let your intellect rule over your mind. I can understand that. But that doesn't mean that Rivka and I need to bend over backwards to accommodate that very human failure.

That's not to say that we won't bend somewhat, as we have been by addressing your feelings, but you need to meet us halfway.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
your attempts to soften that rudeness

That is your interpretation of what I am saying. I have explained repeatedly that it is inaccurate.
rivka, please listen to me. I know it wasn't your intent to excuse Lisa, but can you try to see why it feels that way to me. I'm not trying to accuse you of something. I'm begging you to help me.

Think of me as a friend who has been deeply offended by someone who justified their mean and vicious behavior using your religion. I don't need an explanation of how my offender was half right. I need your reassurance that Judaism does not condone this kind of behavior.

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Scott R
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I think they've done that, Rabbit.
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
your attempts to soften that rudeness

That is your interpretation of what I am saying. I have explained repeatedly that it is inaccurate.
rivka, please listen to me. I know it wasn't your intent to excuse Lisa, but can you try to see why it feels that way to me. I'm not trying to accuse you of something. I'm begging you to help me.

Think of me as a friend who has been deeply offended by someone who justified their mean and vicious behavior using your religion. I don't need an explanation of how my offender was half right. I need your reassurance that Judaism does not condone this kind of behavior.

But what we're incredulous about is how you can even need that assurance. Judaism does not condone this kind of behavior. Are we good now?
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King of Men
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If it makes anyone feel better, I disrespect Judaism in a way that's completely independent of whether Lisa is a nice person. [Smile]
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Scott R
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The question is...how good are you?

:eyebrow waggle:

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
If it makes anyone feel better, I disrespect Judaism in a way that's completely independent of whether Lisa is a nice person. [Smile]

Just curious: Do you disrespect the religion? or its adherents? or both?
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King of Men
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Nu, the other day someone I respect pointed out (in the context of how intelligent people can be religious) this old chestnut to me:

quote:
A motorist had a flat tire in front of an insane asylum. He took the wheel off, and the bolts that held the wheel on rolled into the sewer.
A patient, looking through the fence, suggested that he take one bolt off of the remaining three tires to hold up the new tire until he got to a service station.
The motorist thanked him profusely and said, "I don't know why you are in that place. "
The patient said, "I'm here for being crazy, not stupid. "

which made me rethink some things, and more inclined to hate the religion and love the theist. But it must be admitted that it's hard work, a bit like trying to be patient with a cranky Down's-syndrome child. I want to be understanding of other people's limitations, but I also feel an overwhelming urge to slap some dang sense into them.
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PSI Teleport
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Note to self: KoM only loves intelligent theists.
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Phanto
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Guys, common.

These are verses that have inspired me and given me hope in dark times. They have shaped the person I try to be, and I look to them for moral guidance when I am lost.

Out of respect for their timeless wisdom, let's maybe sheave our swords?

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Rabbit - No one called you an anti-semite.
Lisa has called me a rabid anti-semite many times in the past. She has essentially said that in this thread as well.

quote:
Yes, I saw what you were trying to do and point out to Lisa. You should also realize that your rhetoric about what she does to your opinion of Jews hurt only me and Rivka, in the sense that you needed to explain yourself, and did nothing to pierce Lisa's thick skin.
I'm sorry if I hurt you and rivka. That was not my intent. I've clearly made you both very defensive so that you are missing my point. I know you are not trying to excuse Lisa's rudeness. I consider both you and rivka to be excellent examples of what I understand as derech eretz, i.e decent, polite, respectful, thoughtful, and civilized.

Unfortunately, Lisa is such a terrible example of all of those that I need someone to help restore the balance. It isn't simply that she is a rude Jew which has eroded my opinion of Judaism. The real harm is that she so often justifies her rude and mean behavior by twisting Jewish concepts. So when she comes back to a quote of "Love your neighbor", with a snippy remark about how that commandment doesn't apply to her abuse of steven because he is a non-Jew -- I don't need you to clarify that this is a technically accurate interpretation of the law (at least within many Jewish schools). I need you to reinforce that she has twisted that interpretation in a way that is unacceptable within the broader context of your faith.

quote:
But don't take this to the next level. I take your points, please take ours. You're expecting too much from Rivka and I. You are explaining that you can't be intellectually honest about your opinion about Judaism because of Lisa, that you fail to let your intellect rule over your mind. I can understand that.
I'm not sure you have understood my point. I have no problem being intellectually honest about my opinion. The utterly uncalled for abuse I have experienced from Lisa influences my opinion of her and I am reasonably able to isolate that from my opinion of Judaism. My real difficulty is that when I see how she is able to twist the teachings of Judaism to justify her nastiness, it reduces my respect for the underlying teaching. While intellectually I know that is unfair, its hard to avoid.

I'm very sorry to have hurt you and rivka. I consider you both to be friends and hope you will consider me as a friend. As I said before, you are both wonderful examples of decency, politeness, kindness and civility.

My problem is that I need some strong reassurance that despite what Lisa may imply, her behavior is not justifiable within the larger context of Judaism. If that is too much to ask from you and rivka, I guess I will just have to look keep looking elsewhere.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
She thinks I'm a rabid anti-semite of the kind that would gladly murder Jews in cold blood. That isn't hyperbole -- it is precisely what she has said in the past.

Cite it or retract it.
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kmbboots
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I think that probably most religions have doctrine that sounds terrible "on paper" but in practice isn't nearly as bad. As well as doctrine that would be wonderful if practiced but rarely is.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
If it makes anyone feel better, I disrespect Judaism in a way that's completely independent of whether Lisa is a nice person. [Smile]

See, now, I appreciate that. I think KoM is completely wrong, but at least he's honest about what he believes. I have respect for that which I can't muster up for Rabbit.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
But what we're incredulous about is how you can even need that assurance.
That much is clear. The point I was trying to make for you and rivka, and evidently bungled badly, is that when someone like Lisa attacks people and justifies it with by twisting jewish law, those of us who have been attacked NEED you to emphatically assure as that this is not an acceptable within your faith. Otherwise we are left with the impression that while you are too polite to say it, you pretty much accept that conclusion. I've always been reasonably confident that neither you nor rivka find Lisa's behavior acceptable. What I think you miss is the outsiders perspective. For you, its a given that this is not Judaism and inconceivable that someone might mistake Lisa's quip in that way. Well for an outsider, it isn't that clear and little quips like the one Lisa made here and has made repeatedly, build doubt about what conservative Jews really believe.

quote:
Judaism does not condone this kind of behavior. Are we good now?
I hope so.
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Armoth
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Okay. I think we're on a the same page, if not on the same paragraph or sentence.

Her behavior is not justifiable within the larger context of Judaism. Even though much of what she says is true, no. Her behavior is objectively incorrect.


I have a really good friend - we have been best friends since high school. But he can be incredibly rude and abrasive sometimes. I seriously love the guy, despite his mistreatment of others - I think, because I understand how a lot of it is a defense mechanism, and because I recognize that he is human.

I don't think I'd ask you to forgive Lisa. It's not my place. But I hope that you can still see that it is hard for me to denounce Lisa publicly on a forum. Although I have no respect for this aspect of her personality, and although I know how despicable it is, I too would like to consider her a friend. Despite all that, I know it's important for me to say that she isn't right, and that her behavior is completely at odds with Judaism (doctrinally btw). I dunno, i feel like i had to say that...

Rabbit - I appreciate your sensitivity and vulnerability in the latter posts.

Phanto - While you're right, Torah is all about the refining of the human personality. And I do believe that my discussion with Rabbit was productive, and I am happy to have had it. We both had to check our ego and seek to understand one another.

KoM - I'm really happy you feel that way. Not in a "the atheist is coming around" sorta way - more in the - I can appreciate that we're both human way...

Good thread...

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
She thinks I'm a rabid anti-semite of the kind that would gladly murder Jews in cold blood. That isn't hyperbole -- it is precisely what she has said in the past.

Cite it or retract it.
Certainly your memory is not that bad Lisa.

quote:
Rabbit . . . Yes, it's worthwhile to point out that since you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries . . .
And when I and several other members pointed out that you had accused me (directly and personally) murdering jews for sport, you simply said you couldn't be expected to distinguish between different types of Christians.

If I am mistaken and when you said "you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries" you did not mean that you thought I was the kind of rabid anti-semite who would gladly murder jews in cold blood, what did you mean and why didn't you bother to clarify it in the original discussion when it was evident that I and others understood it in precisely that way.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Okay. I think we're on a the same page, if not on the same paragraph or sentence.

Her behavior is not justifiable within the larger context of Judaism. Even though much of what she says is true, no. Her behavior is objectively incorrect.

Not objectively. In your view.

quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Although I have no respect for this aspect of her personality, and although I know how despicable it is, I too would like to consider her a friend.

Sure. Because all my friends call my personality despicable. Look, Armoth, I get it. You think that dissing me will change Rabbit. It won't.

I understand people who are all, "Why can't we just be friends!" They tend to be very arrogant and think that their way of doing things is the only way. I'm quite aware that there are different approaches. I wish you were.

quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Despite all that, I know it's important for me to say that she isn't right, and that her behavior is completely at odds with Judaism (doctrinally btw). I dunno, i feel like i had to say that...

And I feel I have to say that you're wrong. יש ענין של חילול ה כשמגישים מאמרי חזל כמו עוגיות מזל. וכשאני מחזיר לסטיבן או הארנבת כפי שהם מדברים אלי, אתה צריך להסכים אתם.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
If it makes anyone feel better, I disrespect Judaism in a way that's completely independent of whether Lisa is a nice person. [Smile]

See, now, I appreciate that. I think KoM is completely wrong, but at least he's honest about what he believes. I have respect for that which I can't muster up for Rabbit.
For what its worth Lisa, you are the most consistently hateful human being I have ever dealt with. I do not think I have ever done anything to deserve the venom you spew at me aside from disagree with you. If I have in the past "treated you rudely" prior to you launching some vicious attack on my character, please (as you put it) "cite or retract".
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Armoth
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Ve'im at chosehevet she'at omedet al ha'emet, at tzricha l'havin she'hem lo makshivim.

At midaberet bisaffah she'ani vi Rivka mevinim, aval ha'oto safah lo muvan liammaratzim.

Ani yoter misugal l'haamin sheze kiddush Hashem k'shehem notnim kavod laTorah.

v'yoter mizeh, zeh lo rak she'at lo muvan, at mitzigah et atzmech k'kanai bli middot. Aval lihyot kanaai rak mo'il k'shezeh mitorer et hatzibur l'hasig et hachilul Hashem. Po, ha'arnevet v'Steven hem ha tzibbur.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Certainly your memory is not that bad Lisa.

quote:
Rabbit . . . Yes, it's worthwhile to point out that since you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries . . .
And when I and several other members pointed out that you had accused me (directly and personally) murdering jews for sport, you simply said you couldn't be expected to distinguish between different types of Christians.
a) I was accusing you and your coreligionists in the aggregate. You identify as a Christian, so deal with it. For most of the past 17 centuries, Christians have done exactly that.

b) There was a context to that discussion. Shall we revisit it?

quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
If I am mistaken and when you said "you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries" you did not mean that you thought I was the kind of rabid anti-semite who would gladly murder jews in cold blood, what did you mean and why didn't you bother to clarify it in the original discussion when it was evident that I and others understood it in precisely that way.

Because a person who deliberately misunderstands something in order to cry foul and engage in an argument by intimidation shouldn't, in my opinion, be humored.
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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Nu, the other day someone I respect pointed out (in the context of how intelligent people can be religious) this old chestnut to me:

quote:
A motorist had a flat tire in front of an insane asylum. He took the wheel off, and the bolts that held the wheel on rolled into the sewer.
A patient, looking through the fence, suggested that he take one bolt off of the remaining three tires to hold up the new tire until he got to a service station.
The motorist thanked him profusely and said, "I don't know why you are in that place. "
The patient said, "I'm here for being crazy, not stupid. "

which made me rethink some things, and more inclined to hate the religion and love the theist. But it must be admitted that it's hard work, a bit like trying to be patient with a cranky Down's-syndrome child. I want to be understanding of other people's limitations, but I also feel an overwhelming urge to slap some dang sense into them.
Awwww. This post made me feel all warm and fuzzy. [Big Grin]
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Ve'im at chosehevet she'at omedet al ha'emet, at tzricha l'havin she'hem lo makshivim.

At midaberet bisaffah she'ani vi Rivka mevinim, aval ha'oto safah lo muvan liammaratzim.

Ani yoter misugal l'haamin sheze kiddush Hashem k'shehem notnim kavod laTorah.

v'yoter mizeh, zeh lo rak she'at lo muvan, at mitzigah et atzmech k'kanai bli middot. Aval lihyot kanaai rak mo'il k'shezeh mitorer et hatzibur l'hasig et hachilul Hashem. Po, ha'arnevet v'Steven hem ha tzibbur.

B'seder. Ani anaseh lo l'hagiv klal lo v'la. Tireh im zeh bichlal yisheneh et hamatzav.
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Ve'im at chosehevet she'at omedet al ha'emet, at tzricha l'havin she'hem lo makshivim.

At midaberet bisaffah she'ani vi Rivka mevinim, aval ha'oto safah lo muvan liammaratzim.

Ani yoter misugal l'haamin sheze kiddush Hashem k'shehem notnim kavod laTorah.

v'yoter mizeh, zeh lo rak she'at lo muvan, at mitzigah et atzmech k'kanai bli middot. Aval lihyot kanaai rak mo'il k'shezeh mitorer et hatzibur l'hasig et hachilul Hashem. Po, ha'arnevet v'Steven hem ha tzibbur.

B'seder. Ani anaseh lo l'hagiv klal lo v'la. Tireh im zeh bichlal yisheneh et hamatzav.
:-)
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The Rabbit
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Armoth, Thank you. I appreciate your honesty and humility. Its been worth the discussion despite the emotional stress I think its been for both of us. Its my bedtime now or I'd make a longer response.

Good Night.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
There was a context to that discussion. Shall we revisit it?
Yes, please point out what I said the justified your saying I would kill Jews for sport.
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steven
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My belief, returning to my original post, is that, when it comes to religion and philosophy, the less said, the better. That's why it was such a short post.

My real point was that it's the things that all major religions agree on that bear listening to, if anything does. I think even KoM can agree that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a fairly useful rule of thumb.

My correlating point is that it's exactly the strange little rules that only show up in 1 religion that we need to be taking with a grain of salt. Things like "eating meat is bad" or "observe the Sabbath really strictly" need to be seen in the context that they come from, and/or taken metaphorically and with very little intensity. [Smile]

In other words, let's not be hating and killing each other over the stupid little details, because then we risk ending up with tremendous regrets later.

I mean, do what you want. I'm just saying that, sooner or later, either you (I refer to people of all religions here, including KoM, whose religion is "kill the believers!") or your descendants are likely to practice all the little rules of your religion with less and less fire, and, eventually, abandon them altogether. Given that, the hate is clearly a waste of energy, is it not?

Before anyone says "I don't know what you mean! I don't hate anyone! My religion forbids it!" I would point you to the way that Lisa treats people (and, to be fair, King of Men, too). I would also point you to Fred Phelps, and there are others too, we all know that that is a long, loooong list, and it includes members of every major religion.

But, hate away. I certainly can't stop you. None of you regard my thoughts on religion as being worth listening to, and I accept that fact.

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Dobbie
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:

I think even KoM can agree that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a fairly useful rule of thumb.


I'm sure there are quite a few people who have no interest at all in being "done unto" by me the way I would want to be "done unto" by them.
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Armoth
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Look. It all depends what your starting point is:

If your fundamental assumption is that religion was given to you to guide your moral intuition, then yes - all the intuitive morals make sense. But it's quite dishonest, intellectually, to accept a book is written by God and to explain away all the parts that don't fit with the morality that you intuit.

My assumptions begin elsewhere - they begin with the recognition of the Source, an understanding that He has revealed His will to us, and in coming to understand His will, there are certain things that make sense according to my own moral intuitions and others that do not.

The sages of the talmud warn not to say that we keep kosher because certain animals are unhealthy or disgusting - we keep kosher because of a divine decree.

The idea of Torah observance is that we are trying to make our will God's will. It isn't just a guidebook for how you and I should relate to one another - it is the guidebook for how to come close to God. When people are in love, they don't just subvert their own will, they change their own will to align with that of their love.

I don't subject the Bible's commandments to my moral intuition. That isn't my prerogative. The only thing I subject it to is my sense of scholarship for truthful interpretation. When the bible says you need to sit in booths for 7 days beginning the 15th of the 7th month, I go out and live in a booth for 7 days on the 15th of the 7th month (Sukkot). If you believe the Bible was written by God, then things aren't taken in historical context - they are eternal morals.

But those are my assumptions.

Now just because we may have different interpretations doesn't mean I will hate you. And you did point to Lisa as your demonstration for why these rules that all religions do not share are going to lead to heat. Yet, in the same breath, you pointed to KoM.

Why? It is atheist rhetoric that religion is the source of the world's ills. But that's not true. It is passion. Whenever someone passionately believes in an idea, that's when the dangers of dogma, non-believers, and all that jazz come up.

See: Nazism, Communism, etc.

On the flipside, without passion, what is there to live for?

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Phanto:
...
Out of respect for their timeless wisdom, let's maybe sheave our swords?

Think of it as glass half full rather than glass half empty. There's something vaguely appropriate about a Jewish person and a Christian person fighting it out over the Old Testament/Torah. It should also give you hope that unlike times past, this combat is merely by words.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
a) I was accusing you and your coreligionists in the aggregate. You identify as a Christian, so deal with it. For most of the past 17 centuries, Christians have done exactly that.

Your language isn't just an accusation of the aggregate.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
a) I was accusing you and your coreligionists in the aggregate. You identify as a Christian, so deal with it. For most of the past 17 centuries, Christians have done exactly that.

Your language isn't just an accusation of the aggregate.
Thank you Sam. I'm pretty confident that Lisa knows this. But admitting that would require self introspection and that kind itself introspection would cause such severe cognitive dissonance that it would destroy her. To avoid that, she brands anyone who questions her an evil human being unworthy of even the most basic civility.
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Mucus
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Well, aside from KoM at least
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Scott R
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quote:
I'm pretty confident that Lisa knows this. But admitting that would require self introspection and that kind itself introspection would cause such severe cognitive dissonance that it would destroy her.
You can make an effective argument against Lisa's tone without these insults.

I *think* you can, anyway.

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scifibum
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Oy, Rabbit, i don't know what you hope to achieve with such vicious denunciation.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
a) I was accusing you and your coreligionists in the aggregate. You identify as a Christian, so deal with it. For most of the past 17 centuries, Christians have done exactly that.

Your language isn't just an accusation of the aggregate.
Thank you Sam. I'm pretty confident that Lisa knows this. But admitting that would require self introspection and that kind itself introspection would cause such severe cognitive dissonance that it would destroy her. To avoid that, she brands anyone who questions her an evil human being unworthy of even the most basic civility.
This has not been my experience with Lisa. I've seen plenty of people fight with Lisa, and the results are never pretty.

I myself have stepped on a few Jewish hatracker toes even when I am just trying to understand Judaism, but Lisa has always been polite to me in correcting my understanding. I've seen her get worked up especially when people talk about the Israeli/Palestinian issue, but I have always felt that that was because she feels strongly about the issue having seen it first hand. I've never gotten the impression however that she simply wants to hate people.

I have seen people say to her, "You're very rude/terrible/idiotic for feeling the way you do, and I think I am owed an apology, and she has always responded to that in kind. Were Lisa and I to get upset with each other, I would not expect her to make the first step towards reconciliation. I don't live my life thinking, "I didn't make the first mistake in this series of mistakes, so I should be apologized to first." Lisa's friendship is of sufficient value to me that if she hurts my feelings, I will politely say so, and try to find a way to remain friends.

I have full faith in Lisa's ability to forgive and forget, but I also know that it's basic human nature to want the other person to pay obeisance when they have wronged you.

Too often people on this board get mad at each other, don't resolve anything, hope the passage of time will solve it, run into each other again, invoke the offenses of the past, and the wounds open up again wider and bloodier than ever.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Oy, Rabbit, i don't know what you hope to achieve with such vicious denunciation.

I suppose I don't expect to accomplish anything but perhaps vent. Lisa's made it clear that she considers me to be evil and for the most part her vicious attacks on my person have been, with the exception of this thread, completely unjustified.

If you think there is any justification for some of the things she has said to me over the years, then I really should leave hatrack because I no longer belong here.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It is atheist rhetoric that religion is the source of the world's ills. But that's not true. It is passion.
Well, no.
It is atheist rhetoric that religious epistemology makes it impossible to validate the claims made by the religious, passionate or not. And when these claims are passionate, they can be dangerous precisely because they are invulnerable to actual logic.

The rationale "I strongly believe we should do this because God says so" is relatively impermeable to any sort of counter-argument.

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King of Men
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Not entirely: There is always the final argument that grows from the barrel of a gun. It is perfectly reasonable to hope it never comes to that, but sooner or later it will.

The accusation that atheists think religion is "the source of the world's ills" is a straw man. Religion is one of the world's ills, and the source of some others. This is not the same as saying that a lack of religion would restore us to an Edenic paradise, any more than wiping out smallpox solved every problem in the world. But it's a sufficiently big evil that it's worth devoting some resources to combating it.

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