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I actually might feel bad for all the peaceful Muslims in the US, if a few more of these incidents happen. It could get really ugly for them. If non-Muslims in the US start really fearing for their safety every time they see a Middle-Eastern looking man (who isn't clearly in the process of gas station clerking, etc.) out in public...that's not going to go well for Muslims in the US. If someone fears for their own safety, acceptance and tolerance can end up taking a temporary back seat to more base impulses. That's just human nature. Hopefully that's not how it's going to happen. It would be nice if someone could figure out how to reach out to American Muslims to make them feel valued. I have to admit, I don't know enough about the various Middle Eastern cultures to even know if they are worth the energy to learn/know about. Clearly Islam has turned into something that only deserves to be a minor historical footnote (versus a living religion), but non-Islamic aspects of those cultures might be interesting or worth studying. I don't know.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Clearly Islam has turned into something that only deserves to be a minor historical footnote (versus a living religion), but non-Islamic aspects of those cultures might be interesting or worth studying. I don't know.
What in the world are you talking about?
Worldwide (source Wikipedia, World Religions):
Number of followers:
Christianity: 2.2 billion Islam: 1.6 billion Hinduism: 1.5 billion Buddhism: 500 million Sikhism: 30 million Judaism: 18 million
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: From all I can find, he did. Even if he didn't, the words stand by themselves.
And yet the false appeal to authority that you perpetuated remained important enough for you to attribute the line that is in itself a common aphorism. I've seen words to that effect attributed to Lincoln, FDR, and Winston Churchill. Probably, as per usual, it was coined by some nearly anonymous journalist.
Edit: Also, the words don't stand for themselves because they comprise a pithy and meaningless tautology. In the sense that "doing nothing" is an act of failure in itself committed by the good people of the world, and that such a failure is in itself contrary to the nature of a good person, the saying indicates that the only thing that will let evil succeed is people not being good. Well, I'm sorry, but that's neither powerful nor useful to me.
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Islam is and has been, a religion with a political agenda. It is not the kind of religion that can live in peace for long with other religions. No where Islam is prevalent is there a separation of church and state. Leftists fear christian intervention in politics, proclaiming the separation of church and state - this focus needs to be placed on Islam. Their religion's express purpose is to take over the state. The entire basis of Islam is the aqusition, return and retention of land and the conversion or persecution of the non-believer. Russia: Ave Muslim Woman has 10 Children http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/20/20061120-115904-9135r/?page=2
"Today, the Muslim birth rate in Europe is three times higher than the non-Muslim one. If current trends continue, the Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015, while the non-Muslim population will shrink by 3.5 percent" http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2003/03middleeast_taspinar.aspx
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, has stated, “Multiculturalism has failed.” She elaborated and said that the time has come to stop the encroaching insidious nature of Islam, and to re-establish German culture and German values within the German nation. “We cannot allow Muslim foreigners to de-establish thousands of years of the German way of life.”
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The White Whale: Depends on the definition of "deserves." But it is fairly easy to postulate a number of definitions that would reject any number of those religions regardless of number of followers.
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Sure, but I would have trouble accepting a definition that hand-waves away the religious histories of 1.6 billion people.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The entire basis of Islam is the aqusition, return and retention of land and the conversion or persecution of the non-believer.
This is the entire basis of Christianity- it is what the entirety of Christendom was built upon. Constantine even used Christianity for this specific purpose- regardless of what the Christian faith actually espouses, it was spread and empowered through blood and persecution. It was and remains a tool.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Sure, but I would have trouble accepting a definition that hand-waves away the religious histories of 1.6 billion people.
My definition of "deserves" would include, at the very least, "peacefully coexisting with other faiths and cultures in a highly technological world."
Flying planes into buildings does not really strike me as "coexisting in a highly technological world." For that matter, shooting at unarmed soldiers kind of cramps my style too. I'm already pretty tired, along with many, many other people, of not even being able to get through airport security without wanting to void my bodily fluids on some security screener's head. What next? I'm getting fed up. Islam has lost all it credibility. It's sad but true.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I'm getting fed up. Islam has lost all it credibility. It's sad but true.
Again and again and again. Extremist Islam has lost all of it's credibility. Indeed, it never had any to begin with. Same for extremist Christianity or extremist *fill in religion here.*
Again and again and again. Not every Muslim is an extremist. As has been shown, nearly all of them are not extremist and oppose the actions of the extremists and most are very nice people.
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I wont argue that hundreds of years ago Christianity had a political agenda. The fact that the Christians had a crusade does not erase the CURRENT Islam political agenda. Christianity is now centered on a relationship between the individual and God, like most religions that are capable of peacefully coexisting with others.
If Muslims were told they couldn't gather at their home, even if they were espousing Jihad, there would be an outcry from the left.
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Here's an interesting quote from the actual Edmund Burke:
quote: It is an advantage to all narrow wisdom and narrow morals that their maxims have a plausible air; and, on a cursory view, appear equal to first principles. They are light and portable. They are as current as copper coin; and about as valuable. They serve equally the first capacities and the lowest; and they are, at least, as useful to the worst men as to the best. Of this stamp is the cant of not man, but measures; a sort of charm by which many people get loose from every honourable engagement. Edmund Burke
Kind of makes you wonder...
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I didn't say Christianity gets a free pass. One thing at a time, though. I can't say that I fear that the average Christian is going to pull out a gun and try to ventilate my spleen. Yes, there are a few Eric Robert Rudolphs out there, but their behavior generally is condemned by other Christians. Generally. I'm not so sure that the majority of Muslims even condemn suicide bombers. Maybe publicly, sure. Privately? I'm going to need proof. Big proof.
A good example (of why I need BIG proof) is that I heard an interview with a Muslim college student on NPR about posted notices by Muslim students about Muslim student gatherings on the bulletin board at his college's student union (I think it was U of Chicago, but I could be wrong). He said that the English statements on the notices were all about peace, brotherhood, etc. The Arabic translation on the same notice was all about "kill the infidel", etc. No joke, these people are crazy.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wont argue that hundreds of years ago Christianity had a political agenda. The fact that the Christians had a crusade does not erase the CURRENT Islam political agenda.
Nor is the current Islamic agenda represented wholly or even in larger part by extremist Muslims. This is true in the same way that Mormonism doesn't represent all of Christianity in its very overt political agenda against gay rights. Nor is Christianity wholly represented by the Catholic church's also overt political agenda on reproductive rights and birth control. These churches are heavily involved in politics. Maybe not in a way that bothers you, but they are nevertheless involved. You constantly harp on "Black Liberation Theology" as if it doesn't comprise a part of the religion you are claiming has no political agenda. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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"Applause is the spur of noble minds, the end and aim of weak ones."
"By gnawing through a dike, even a rat may drown a nation."
"Education is the cheap defense of nations."
"Hypocrisy can afford to be magnificent in its promises, for never intending to go beyond promise, it costs nothing."
"In a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority."
My favorint Rand quote follows the above one well: "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." Ayn Rand
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"A good example (of why I need BIG proof) is that I heard an interview with a Muslim college student on NPR about posted notices by Muslim students about Muslim student gatherings on the bulletin board at his college's student union (I think it was U of Chicago, but I could be wrong). He said that the English statements on the notices were all about peace, brotherhood, etc. The Arabic translation on the same notice was all about "kill the infidel", etc. No joke, these people are crazy."
I don't trust them. Not at all.
I will say that, quite often, the craziness is readily apparent years and years before they actually take action. Plenty of people knew that Hasan was crazy as all get out. It wasn't exactly a state secret. However, I somewhat doubt the ability/willingness of normal Muslims to accurately monitor and report the craziness of the crazier ones. Hence, I don't trust them. Plus, read my paragraph above, again.
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"I somewhat doubt the ability/willingness of normal Muslims to accurately monitor and report the craziness of the crazier ones."
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: If Muslims were told they couldn't gather at their home, even if they were espousing Jihad, there would be an outcry from the left.
Yes, because prior restraint of 1st amendment rights is, *gasp* a violation of the first amendment.
Please keep in mind that the bill of rights only works one way. It guarantees rights- it does not in any way prohibit any form of speech, nor does it provide recourse for the government to ensure that illegal forms of speech, such as conspiracy, have no chance of happening. In our system, we punish people for breaking the law. We cannot prevent them the opportunity to break laws, above and beyond what action prudence demands (ie: we set up police check points, but we don't stop people from drinking if they have the opportunity to drive). The bill of rights is there to show us in clear terms that our acts of prudence are not to approach a certain limit- preventing peaceable assembly would be a breach of that limit.
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Black Liberation Theology uses christianity. It's primary focus is not the individual and God, it is the group and state...us vs them. Black Liberation theologists aren't typically terrorist...disgruntled American blacks take that step when they convert to Islam.
Mormon's aren't shooting homosexuals. You can always find minority fringe of extremists in any group. Your attacks on other religions is no defense of Islam.
To see the truth, ask yourself these questions....What religion in the world today is the most violent? In the name of what religion are the most people killed? Which nations have the least freedom and what religion is at the helm? Political correctness blinds you from the facts and endangers any nation that allows Islam to gain a strong foothold.
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"....disgruntled American blacks take that step when they convert to Islam."
Surely you jest. Did you notice that Hasan wasn't black? He's not some brother from the 'hood that converted in prison.
If I'm walking down the street, the black man that might worry me would be one that dresses like a gang member, not one in the traditional Muslim garb. If you feel differently, you are on some serious drugs.
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Blackblade, I seem to recall that the LDS church was pretty politically active in getting gay marriage banned in California.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: You can always find minority fringe of extremists in any group. Your attacks on other religions is no defense of Islam.
I'm not defending Islam. Islam is a travesty in the same way that Christianity is a travesty. Both religions have been used as a political tool by people and groups on every single point on the political spectrum. Of course you recognize this and hand-wave it in the case of Christianity because you are a Christian. It doesn't matter to you that on top of your religion, you happen to be a hypocrite, not to mention a racist.
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I didn't suggest that Hasan was black. I was discussing the overall danger of Islam. But for your edification, here's some American Black converts that engaged in Jihad....but again you would say it has nothing to do with their religion...like Hasan, just a crazy individual.....right?
quote:Originally posted by steven: If I'm walking down the street, the black man that might worry me would be one that dresses like a gang member, not one in the traditional Muslim garb. If you feel differently, you are on some serious drugs.
I don't know if I've met more Muslims than most people here, or than you, but I wholeheartedly agree. Every Muslim I've ever met (granted I've never been in a Muslim country, so we're talking California and Europe) has been politically moderate and open minded. Any place I've ever lived, therefore, I have had no fear of Muslims. And this is coming from someone who was living in London during the 2005 bombings, and could easily have died himself had he not on that particular day left the city to go to Stratford. The bombing was even on the line that I used every day (as many do). But they were murderers. They were terrorists. Their crime was wholly political, and whether they believed they were committing an act in support of their religion is meaningless to me. They were being used, and they were being used to the benefit of someone else. We can easily fight evil- but no religion is inherently evil. They are all no different from any other institution of people, which means they all carry the same flaws, and those flaws find expression according to what the adherents of the religion need, politically.
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You remember how I posted this sentence above?
"If I'm walking down the street, the black man that might worry me would be one that dresses like a gang member, not one in the traditional Muslim garb. If you feel differently, you are on some serious drugs."
I meant it.
I will grant you, there are a few crazies among the Black Muslims. However, they are few and far between. Besides, American black culture is mostly Christian. It's a whoooole lot easier to identify the crazy black Muslims among the black Christians.
I feel like I can understand and deal with a black Muslim more easily. At least he's an American. We can bond over Dave Chapelle, or some other aspect of pop culture we both like. I can read his body language and facial expressions more easily, whereas I can't say the same for Osama bin Crazy.
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Your hypocrasy is glaring. A Mormon votes against gay marriage and you consider it an inapropriate intervention of religion in politics. A follower of Islam shoots and bombs government employees and you consider it the acts of a crazy individual. The peaceful expression of one's moral code via voting rights is what makes America great. You cannot equate Muslim violence with the voting patterns of other religions.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: But again you would say it has nothing to do with their religion...like Hasan, just a crazy individual.....right?
I'm sorry, where is your disconnect here? A crazy and or self destructive and angry individual joins a religion because there are elements of that religion that cater to his violent, self destructive tendencies. That is not a surprise. That is not a revelation. And it also says little about the religion. It says a lot about politics. For instance, you are self-conscious, jealous, envious of others, and have a massive inferiority complex- therefore you gravitate to the sector of right wing politics that tells you that you are, in fact, superior in your very nature to most of the people in the world. This feeling comforts you. Not surprising.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Your hypocrasy is glaring. A Mormon votes against gay marriage and you consider it an inapropriate intervention of religion in politics. A follower of Islam shoots and bombs government employees and you consider it the acts of a crazy individual. The peaceful expression of one's moral code via voting rights is what makes America great. You cannot equate Muslim violence with the voting patterns of other religions.
No, I don't consider the former to be an inappropriate intervention of religion in politics. I consider it to be an inevitable one. You've slanted my words to argue against the idea that religious involvement in politics is wrong. I don't care if its right or wrong. I was pointing out that it exists- a fact which you several posts ago denied flatly in the case of Christianity. You now cite an example of why you were then wrong. You lose sir. Good day.
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I agree that the vast majority of Islam in America are peaceful. I'll pose the question again, what percentage is a problem? 1% of millions makes a very dangerous force in every American city. The peaceful ones need to speak out and report the non-peaceful ones. The only choice is the inevitable cycle of violence and persecution of the entire religion. American's will not always feel comfortable with Islam when the attacks become prevalent. .01% of them could kill millions. I'm not worried about .01% of the Christians, Jews, Hindu's, Budhists, Athiests, Greenies, Wiccans, etc. Continue to deny the threat and it only grows.
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I'm quite sure many athiests voted against gay marriage. You are not offended by their action, rather their motivation. The Mormons you brought up were a small percentage of the vote. The ballot wouldn't have passed but for the blacks that came out to vote for Obama and overwhelmingly oppose gay marriage. Why aren't you attacking American blacks for being intolerant, instead of the tiny fraction of Mormom votes that were ultimately inconsequential.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I'm quite sure many athiests voted against gay marriage.
Really?
From where have you gained this certainty? What would you call 'many'?
Although my personal experience doesn't mean much, I don't know a single atheist that is against gay marriage. I'm imagine a few might exist out there. But I highly doubt it's many.
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Yes really, BlackBlade. Islam has just hit its violent stage at a different time than Christianity and in a different way. Personally I find its violent stage to be doing far less harm than Christianities.
Do I really need to remind you of the attrocities committed in the past in the name of Christianity? Often sanctioned or encouraged by its churches? And we're not talking a few crazy priests, we're talking the heads of the churches. Vatican scale.
So don't tell me that Christianity isn't a political religion and don't tell me it hadn't done great damage.
We just need to remember that, just as the vast majority of Christians today regret much the damage done in the name of their religion, the vast majority of Muslims also regret the damage being done in the name of theirs. They do not support it. The actions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda and other like minded extremists do not even remotely represent them.
Remember that, when Christianity was busy launching crusades against it and killing witches for fear they were causing the black plague, an Islamic caliphate was the height of science and culture:
quote:During the Muslim conquests of the 7th and early 8th centuries, Rashidun armies established the Caliphate, or Islamic Empire, one of the largest empires in history. The Islamic Golden Age was soon inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to the newly founded city Baghdad. The Abbassids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" stressing the value of knowledge. During this period the Muslim world became the unrivaled intellectual centre for science, philosophy, medicine and education as the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge. They established the "House of Wisdom" (Arabic:بيت الحكمة) in Baghdad, where scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, sought to gather and translate all the world's knowledge into Arabic in the Translation Movement. Many classic works of antiquity that would otherwise have been forgotten were translated into Arabic and later in turn translated into Turkish, Persian, Hebrew and Latin. During this period the Muslim world was a cauldron of cultures which collected, synthesized and significantly advanced the knowledge gained from the ancient Mesopotamian, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, North African, Greek and Byzantine civilizations. Rival Muslim dynasties such as the Fatimids of Egypt and the Umayyads of al-Andalus were also major intellectual centres with cities such as Cairo and Córdoba rivaling Baghdad.[6]
And frankly, I'm far more frightened by radical right Christian extremists in this country than I am of radical Muslim extremists. Don't tell me they don't exist. Have you forgotten about the holocaust museum and the immigration center? Given the recent shootings by far right radical Christians, what's to stop me from pointing to those to damn the whole of Christianity the same way you are attempting to damn the whole of Islam, malanthrop?
Intelligence does. I understand that those radical few do not represent the majority. So please, show some intelligence, malanthrop, and drop the paranoid bs.
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There are gays against gay marriage. And Thomas Sowell is a great educator and political writer, and a black man opposed to affirmative action. By saying "many" I didn't mean the majority. No one is slandered by the self proclaimed "tolerant" party more than minorities that fail to adhere to the stereotype. Palin, Clarence Thomas, etc. The big-tent is actually a collection of small tents. I imagine a fiscally conservative christian homosexual would be more accepted in the GOP than the Dem party. They look out for the minorities so long as they stay in there place.
I'm pointing out the inconsistency of the logic. With Mormon's the religious motivation is the measure, with Islamic Terror the religious motivation is ignored.
A Christian or Mormon dares to vote against gay marriage and the focus is on their intolerant belief system. A man shoots soldiers yelling "Ala Akbar" and the belief system is insignificant.
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And whatever your denomination you may say, "Well my denomination never did that." Yes. It did. At once time your denomination was part of the catholic church, before the protestant splits. And there were plenty of atrocities in the name of Christianity committed before those splits. And after those splits it was some of the major protestant denominations from many of the others are descended that did much of the damage in the new world and the far east.
Well, this is bogus reasoning, Alcon. I understand where you're coming from, but it just is. Do modern Christians need to be aware of atrocities committed by the Vatican in the past? Certainly, and for lots of reasons. Were those atrocities committed by every Christian's denomination? Well, of course not.
Many Christian denominations got their start as explicit rejections of the Vatican, so I really don't see how you can tie the two that closely together.
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quote: Although my personal experience doesn't mean much, I don't know a single atheist that is against gay marriage. I'm imagine a few might exist out there. But I highly doubt it's many.
Did a quick google-fu on this and I would never say it is 'many'. Even a few is stretching it. The individuals I did find were basing their logic on 'if two men can get married, can I marry my dog?' arguement.
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quote:Well, this is bogus reasoning, Alcon. I understand where you're coming from, but it just is. Do modern Christians need to be aware of atrocities committed by the Vatican in the past? Certainly, and for lots of reasons. Were those atrocities committed by every Christian's denomination? Well, of course not.
That would be why I removed it to reword it
Apparently I wasn't fast enough, I realized only after reread on post that it hadn't come out quite correctly. The point stands with out that part of the argument.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Your hypocrasy is glaring. A Mormon votes against gay marriage and you consider it an inapropriate intervention of religion in politics. A follower of Islam shoots and bombs government employees and you consider it the acts of a crazy individual.
Nobody here is considering "a religious person voting based on their religious convictions" an inappropriate intervention of religion in politics.
Furthermore, the Hasan shooting was the act of a crazy person.
So, your charge of hypocrisy is rooted in argumentative misappropriation, factual misappropriation, and a whole host of simplistic cause-finding.
And you've even managed to drag blacks, mormons and atheists into this crazy theorycrafting mission. Good job! I'm sure they're all proud.
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quote:Many Christian denominations got their start as explicit rejections of the Vatican, so I really don't see how you can tie the two that closely together.
Actually you can, because their rejections had nothing to do with the atrocities committed and entirely to do with other theological issues. Also the denominations that split went on to commit similar or worse atrocities themselves so... *shrug*
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I agree that the vast majority of Islam in America are peaceful. I'll pose the question again, what percentage is a problem? 1% of millions makes a very dangerous force in every American city. The peaceful ones need to speak out and report the non-peaceful ones. The only choice is the inevitable cycle of violence and persecution of the entire religion. American's will not always feel comfortable with Islam when the attacks become prevalent. .01% of them could kill millions. I'm not worried about .01% of the Christians, Jews, Hindu's, Budhists, Athiests, Greenies, Wiccans, etc. Continue to deny the threat and it only grows.
Yeah, you're not worried about those people because you're a racist. I get it. That's fine. Well, it's not fine, but I get it.
Extremist Islam is a real threat. Extreme anything is a real threat- there have been are and will be terrorists of every stripe in this world.
And by the way, the number of Muslims that actually engage in acts of terrorism is vanishingly small. Out of the entire Islamic world, international terrorists constitute perhaps 0.000001 percent or less.
My point here is that you are looking at these people's religion as if fighting it or understanding it as a whole is going to help something. I wonder why, when there are clearly much more prescient political and economic reasons for terrorism to exist in the middle east. Even World War II is not considered by westerners to be a religious war, even as it saw a genocide that was carried out along religious lines. Why? Because we recognize that the political forces in Europe at the time created an atmosphere of nationalism that caused a violent purging of ethnic minorities. It happens all over the world, all the time. Even if every Muslim in the world were a member of some other religion, with totally different teachings, were they placed in a similar situation as they are in today, there would be violence.
That is not "Islam's fault." That is not anyone's fault. That is the result of many long chains of circumstances that affect human behavior in unusual and dramatic ways. Your solution is *not* a solution, it is a blame game, and it is useless. I'm very sorry that you have become such a wretched and pathetic coward, but I don't know what to do about it.
*I exclude Iraqi or Afghan insurgent fighters, and other Muslims in arms, who are fighting in their homelands, and so are not terrorists in the sense that we are talking about.
quote:Extremist Islam is a real threat. Extreme anything is a real threat- there have been are and will be terrorists of every stripe in this world.
Yes.
I also think it is important to point out that the flip side of this is that non-extremist Islam and non-extremist Muslims and non-extremist anything should not be broad-stroked into the same category as the extremists. And I still feel like steven and malanthrop do this again and again, knowingly and willingly. And that this is the wrong thing to do.
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quote:Yeah, you're not worried about those people because you're a racist.
Pffh, nobody's a racist unless they admit to it or join the KKK or something. Being afraid of what happens when we have too many cultural minorities in our cities doesn't count.
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quote:Yeah, you're not worried about those people because you're a racist.
Pffh, nobody's a racist unless they admit to it or join the KKK or something. Being afraid of what happens when we have too many cultural minorities in our cities doesn't count.
Don't get me wrong, I have black friends. I even let them use my bathroom. I'm not racist.
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quote:Nobody here is considering "a religious person voting based on their religious convictions" an inappropriate intervention of religion in politics.
*Raises hand*
Objection! Religious people being permitted to vote is, indeed, an inappropriate intervention of utter irrationality in politics.
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You didn't notice the list of religions I'm not worried about which included many races and cultural minorities. Hindu, Budhist, Jews, etc. Race has nothing to do with it, nor does religious intolerance. I've repeatedly acknowledged the vast majority of the followers of Islam in America are peaceful but the small minority can cause mayhem and death. We need the majority of Islam to aid in rooting out the extremists. If for no other reason than their own self preservation. The more attacks there are from the minority, the less tolerance there will be for the passive majority and their tacit approval of the extreme.
The KKK would regard themselves a "christian" organization. There is zero tolerance for this extremist organization in our country, rightfully so. Even though the KKK currently commits murder far less than extremist Islam, no one comes to the defense of this "religious" group. Extremist Islam is a perversion, a theopolitical cult. Those who espouse Jihad within the US should be arrested and tried for treason rather than be shielded under the guise of freedom of religion and speech.
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