quote:I don't want to be one of those hateful militant atheists, but its hard to be understanding when Christian goodwill is so lacking this time of year.
I understand your sentiment, but at the same time isn't that kind of emotional response the root of the problem. Someone does something to make the kind of people who set up these websites feel like they are under attack, so they set up a counterattack, so someone posts on the internet about how irritating they are, and someone (like me) posts to say how stupid it is to get irritated by their irritation and pretty soon we've ratcheted things up so we've lost all perspective on what should be a joyful festival.
The problem is that once it's started, it's much harder to ratchet it down than to crank it up. We just all need to back off a bit and let it go.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm living in a culture right now where there isn't a Christian majority. There isn't any religious majority. There are national holidays for Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish and African religions and nobody gets in the least bit bent out of shape over it. Christians visit their Muslim friends for Eid. Everyone is happy when the Hindus put up lights for Diwali and no one gets grumpy about christmas carols that start sometime in October. Maybe that's just because people here enjoy any excuse for a party, but it really does seem like people are much more tolerant of other religions.
Bolding mine. I think that is why nobody gets bent. When all religions (or none) are equitably celebrated it is easier. There is no being a minority where you have to use your vacation days to celebrate your holiday while everyone else in the office gets theirs "for free" (as just one example). There is no being overwhelmed by a culture that is ignoring you (at best). And there is no panic that our privileged place as number one might be threatened.
ETA: Okay. It was all bolded. Duh. The phrase I wanted to highlight was "There isn't any religious majority."
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Everyone should be allowed to have whatever emotional response they would like. It seems more a question of appropriate response.
I have never told someone they are not allowed to wish me a "blessed day" (a cashier at my local walmart says this to me everytime she checks me out.) I have never boycotted a story for selling nativity scenes or menorahs.
We set up a small atheist endcap a few months ago. I imagine that quite a few people walked by and have strongly negative reactions. And that's perfectly allowable. But the people who pulled me away from my job in order to verbally attack me for something I had no control over...that's where I start to get alittle angry. When people loudly tell me they're taking their business elsewhere because of a corporate decision, its hard not to take it personally. We listen to every unmet sales goal with heavy hearts because we watch the payroll hours disappear until our friends quit in hopes of finding other work.
Let people feel however they want. Let them rant and rave to their friends if they need to blow off steam. But its inappropriate to verbally harass innocent people and wage a financial war on anyone who doesn't cater to extreme religious desires.
Maybe its their "right." But it sure doesn't make them polite, understanding, tolerant people.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Do you know how many websites there are out there with Jews complaining about the celebration of Christmas? Neither do I but googling it brought up pages of examples of Jews who'd complained to stores about Christmas decorations. How is that any different than what these people are doing?
Not that I doubt your word, of course, but would you mind sharing some of those links? I mean, I'm about as intolerant a Jew as you're liable to find, and while I'll complain about a store that has a trillion rolls of Christmas wrapping paper and not a single Hanukkah one, I've never given anyone a hard time in my life about them saying "Merry Christmas" or having Christmas decorations. In fact, we're probably going to go driving on the 24th to look at all the decorations around, because it's pretty (okay, sometimes it's kitchy, but on the whole, it's pretty).
If a clerk says "Merry Christmas" to me (or "Happy Holidays", for that matter), I might smile and say, "You too", or just reply with a "Happy holidays". But I guarantee you that the people who made that site, if they said Merry Christmas to someone and got a Happy Holidays back, would claim they were being oppressed.
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This site is run by Focus on the (Christian, straight) Family so it's not just a random Christian with a bug up their rear. They are a pretty substantial political force. I'd be surprised to see a similarly well-organized and influential Jewish organization doing something similar.
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Lisa, I really don't want to do the search again and I certainly didn't bookmark the sites. If you really want to see them, google "Jews complain about Christmas" or something like that.
I'm confident that it is a rarity for Jews to file complaints about things like Christmas displays. All the Jews I know IRL are very open tolerant people who like you enjoy at least some aspects of the Christmas season. But this website doesn't represent the Christian mainstream either.
Why get worked up over a few wackos?
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quote:But this website doesn't represent the Christian mainstream either.
Depends on how you want to define mainstream. They are one of the largest evangelical organizations in existence, with revenues of over $142 million last year. They are a prominent anti-SSM (and anti-gay rights) organization. It's founder and leader was an advisor to Bush and has a nationally syndicated talk radio show.
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I utilize Christian businesses whenever possible. Some make sure they spend their money at "green" companies and I never hear a complaint that Spike Lee films are 99% black. There's nothing wrong with supporting your community or encouraging your beliefs, whatever they are. (except for Christian, straight organizations of course)
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quote:But this website doesn't represent the Christian mainstream either.
Depends on how you want to define mainstream. They are one of the largest evangelical organizations in existence, with revenues of over $142 million last year. They are a prominent anti-SSM (and anti-gay rights) organization. It's founder and leader was an advisor to Bush and has a nationally syndicated talk radio show.
You don't really want to open the door to radical presidential advisors. Of course conservative Christians are equivalent to Marxist Communists.
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Nothing wrong with encouraging Christian/black/gay/green/whatever businesses. It's labeling a lack of a corporate preference for your specific beliefs as "offensive" that makes this silly. They are conflating "doesn't explicitly give preference to us" with "is against us."
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quote:You don't really want to open the door to radical presidential advisors.
I didn't say anything about whether he was a radical advisor, or otherwise impugn his character. I was just noting that this is not a fringe organization.
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[quote]Depends on how you want to define mainstream. They are one of the largest evangelical organizations in existence, with revenues of over $142 million last year./quote]
Do you really think that the kind of people who complain to this website are mainstream anything?
I've lived among Christians in the America most of my life and while I've heard occasional grumbling about Xmas, I've never known anyone who would file a complaint about a store because the clerks said "Happy Holidays".
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quote:This is unclear to me. What is an "atheist endcap"?
And endcap is what you find at the end of a row of merchandise at a store. It's usually something that's on sale, seasonal items, or products that are topically related. In this case it sounds like Shanna works at a book store so it was probably a collection of Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc. books.
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quote:I've never known anyone who would file a complaint about a store because the clerks said "Happy Holidays"
I have. There seems to be some overlap with the Palin/Beck crowd. It is a minority, but not a tiny one, and definitely not a quiet one. O'Reilly has already started his "war on Christmas" crap this year, and he's also pretty popular. Presumably it resonates with some substantial portion of his audience.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:I've never known anyone who would file a complaint about a store because the clerks said "Happy Holidays"
I have. There seems to be some overlap with the Palin/Beck crowd. It is a minority, but not a tiny one, and definitely not a quiet one. O'Reilly has already started his "war on Christmas" crap this year, and he's also pretty popular. Presumably it resonates with some substantial portion of his audience.
I haven't except for on Hatrack (and other online places). But I live in a lovely sheltered blue blue university town.
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I would never consider a "green" corporate preference site to be odd. Not using their site doesn't make one anti-green. The Christian site is not anti-gay either. Unfortunately, it today's society only groups that accept all other groups as morally equivalent are accepted. Except for Muslims of course, they can kill gays and mutilate women and get a pass under tolerance of religious freedom. Proclaim the Christian intolerant for believing you live an immoral life but be silent about the Muslim who would castrate you and tuck the appendage where the sun doesn't shine.
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quote: The Christian site is not anti-gay either. Unfortunately, it today's society only groups that accept all other groups as morally equivalent are accepted.
I didn't say this site is anti-gay. I said the organization is anti-gay and that was in the context of noting their political relevance. They actively campaign against gay-rights initiatives in the political sphere.
You're really all over the place here. Have you noticed that each time I reply I have to correct you on your apparent misinterpretation of my previous post. Slow down a bit and try to respond to the words you see, maybe even quote the ones you are responding to, rather than just pick a couple words and go on a screed about something only tangentially related.
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mal, The thing that makes this particular site offensive are the details. They are identifying stores as being anti-Christmas because of minutia, like clerks saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". That's not just intolerant, it's petty.
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quote:Gallup finds some evidence of a consumer backlash, as 32% of Americans say it bothers them when stores use "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" in their displays at this time of year instead of "Merry Christmas."
quote:Sixty-two percent of Americans say that the now nearly ubiquitous use of "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings," rather than "Merry Christmas," in many stores and public institutions is a change for the worse. Only 24% consider it a change for the better.
quote:This is unclear to me. What is an "atheist endcap"?
And endcap is what you find at the end of a row of merchandise at a store. It's usually something that's on sale, seasonal items, or products that are topically related. In this case it sounds like Shanna works at a book store so it was probably a collection of Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc. books.
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My personal (and hair-splitting) position on the "Merry Christmas" issue is that whether or not you're Christian, Christmas exists and all the person speaking is doing is hoping that Christmas goes well for you. That's why I say, "You too," if wished a happy Hanukkah (and what I would say if ever wished a happy Kwanzaa or something). My other opinion on the issue is that so many atheists and agnostics celebrate a version of Christmas that the religious connotation of the greeting depends on the two people talking. If a Walmart employee says, "Merry Christmas," I don't necessarily think they are Christian or care about the religious significance of the holiday.
I agree that what that site promotes is the antithesis of the Christian spirit this holiday is supposed to be about. I think that it's promoting an attitude of consumerism that already plays too much of a role on what's supposed to be a religious holiday. Easter is supposed to be just as, if not more, important that Christmas, but loses prominence because there aren't any presents.
I agree with the movement to put the Christ back in Christmas, but these people just seem dumb and motivated by beliefs that aren't Christian.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: mal, The thing that makes this particular site offensive are the details. They are identifying stores as being anti-Christmas because of minutia, like clerks saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". That's not just intolerant, it's petty.
I think they are drawing a line between what a clerk chooses to say and company policy. Companies are more than happy to reap the windfall of the Christian holiday. Without Christ there would be no Christmas season. Without Christianity, there would be no "holiday" season. Why not spend your money where they acknowledge the reason the money is being spent. If for you it is about presents and a day off, go to the holiday store. I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Funny statement for this thread. I can show you at least one website full of Christians who don't shop at "mainstream" stores.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Companies are more than happy to reap the windfall of the Christian holiday. Without Christ there would be no Christmas season.
Surely you know that Christmas has its roots in non-Christian holidays that were celebrated long before anyone had heard of Christ. Perhaps we can credit Christianity for popularizing the holiday as a Christian one, but who's to say we wouldn't be celebrating in a very similar way had Christianity not become the dominant religion. It seems like every major religion has a celebratory holiday which could have been shoe-horned in pretty easily.
quote:I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....
Huh? I just ate In N Out for lunch today. Scripture references were proudly printed on the cups and burger wrappers. No problem there.
On the other hand, the whole point of this web site is to encourage Christians to not shop at "mainstream" stores that don't proactively acknowledge their religion. I'm aware of no similar organized drive to boycott businesses solely because they are run by Christians.
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Funny statement for this thread. I can show you at least one website full of Christians who don't shop at "mainstream" stores.
Really, please do. You can find extreme examples of anything. Where I live I would have to go hungry because there aren't any non-chain Christian grocery stores. I'm sure they'd refuse a tow from an atheist.
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I have no problem shopping at Christian owned stores - or Muslim-owned stores or whatever. I would find making an issue of being a Christian-owned store or advertising it distasteful.
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quote:Without Christ there would be no Christmas season
Of course there would be. Nearly all elements of Christmas that are not explicitly religious (and some of those too) are taken from pagan sources. You may as well say that without Christ, there'd be no Easter.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Funny statement for this thread. I can show you at least one website full of Christians who don't shop at "mainstream" stores.
Really, please do. You can find extreme examples of anything. Where I live I would have to go hungry because there aren't any non-chain Christian grocery stores. I'm sure they'd refuse a tow from an atheist.
quote:Without Christ there would be no Christmas season. Without Christianity, there would be no "holiday" season.
Amusingly, the holiday season existed long before Christmas, and exists in parts of the world where Christianity is not a majority religion.
People like to light lights and give gifts and visit family when it gets dark and cold outside. Christ's "birthday" is a convenient modern excuse for a very ancient behavior.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I agree with Rabbit. While I certainly don't have a problem with people exercising their right to shop where they will and to take offense where they will, this website goes overboard by saying that a clerk who answers "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays" means the store is hostile to Christians. Give me a break!
I'm sure the same people posting that would find it extremely offensive if a clerk were required, as part of their job, to respond with "Happy Hanukkah" to any customer who mentioned it, even if the clerk were not Jewish. No one should be forced into responding a certain way to a holiday greeting - though you could certainly require they be polite.
If someone wishes me well for a holiday I do not celebrate, I smile, say thank you and something along the lines of "I hope you do, too," or "I hope you and your family have a great holiday."
90% of the time the exchange is really just part of a social ritual - it's just what you do, like the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange. If I weren't sick right now I'd remember the exact term for these paired exchanges from my discourse analysis class but my head is fuzzy from cold medicine and is not functioning.
Suffice to say - if someone takes the time to wish you well, thank them and move on. Getting your knickers in a twist over something so small and petty is rather ridiculous, IMO.
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: 90% of the time the exchange is really just part of a social ritual - it's just what you do, like the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange.
I agree with all you said, but I wanted to comment on this. I have a hard time with the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange. Does anyone else?
Half the time I get it right. The other half, I actually respond with how I am. Sometimes it results in an interesting conversation. Sometimes a very apparent "What the heck? I wasn't really asking."
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Godric: I agree with all you said, but I wanted to comment on this. I have a hard time with the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange. Does anyone else?
There's a Dilbert strip that I can't find just now that expresses the same idea. Dogbert meets a guy on the street:
Guy: "Hi Dogbert, how are you?" Dogbert: "Is that a sincere question about my well-being or just a social pleasantry?" Guy (pauses): "The second one." Dogbert: "Oh I'm fine, how are you?"
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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The moral of this story should be: Don't get bent out of shape over things that don't really matter.
It's true on all sides of religious issues. Don't get bent out of shape when people say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Don't get bent out of shape when kids say "God" in the pledge of allegiance. Don't get bent out of shape when a a store or institution shows respect to some other religion but doesn't include anything from your religion. Don't get bent out of shape when a cartoon depicts your personal religious savior in a negative light. These things don't really matter that much, so what good comes from making yourself and others upset over something that isn't worth it?
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No, there's no need for agreement from other people. As long as I ask myself if this really matters, and don't get bent out of shape over things that don't, I should be mostly fine.
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Again, it is easy for Christians (or should be) to "not sweat the small stuff" when we basically have it our own way. It is a bit like not caring where you sit on the bus when you always get a seat in the front.
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Tresopax: Ah, if your moral was intended just for yourself then I have no objection. But as a rule for resolving the dispute between people in each of those examples that was mentioned, its pretty useless.
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You know, as much as I disagree with what these people are doing, they are clearly doing it because they feel like Christmas and Christianity are under attack and not out of some plot to suppress other religions and beliefs.
As much as I think that you have to be pretty whacked to think Christmas and Christianity are in any real danger, I think its also pretty evident that these people aren't actually suffering from a mental illness. There are reasons they feel the way they do, some of them legitimate, and attacking them for what they are doing is almost certain to make the problem worse.
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I think that they are definitely threatened if by threatened one means that the privilege of being "top dog" in the culture is less than it was.
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The Rabbit: I agree with the second paragraph except that I don't think attacking them will make the problem worse. But we probably disagree on what the problem exactly is.
As for the first paragraph, I think they are out to preserve Christianity (and Christmas as a proxy for that) in a special privileged place. That they have to suppress other religions and beliefs in order to do that is almost collatoral damage rather than a conscious aim.
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Why should I bend myself more out of shape over public sector issues that don't matter much than private sector issues that don't matter much? A website comparing which county or state governments are more "friendly" towards Christmas is no more reasonable than this website comparing private companies.
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They forget the book ends--Thanksgiving and New Years, which are secular holidays for everyone. Add to that Kwanza, Festivus, and other new holidays, and you get the whole season, not just Christmas.
Second, what do they hope to accomplish? Do they really want the Gap and its low hanging pants to be associated with the Sacrifice and Miracles of Christ?
I don't think so.
They just don't like their Holiday--Christ-Mass to be taken over by profit seeking atheists and non-believers.
I can understand that.
But wait, isn't Easter the big Christian holiday?
Religiously--yes. Culturally--no. See, this isn't a theological dispute at all. While both sides like to argue the theology of it, its really a cultural dispute. The biggest, grandest, most well known and most exported American Holiday is Christmas.
I'm not saying that Christmas is American. I'm saying that Americans are renowned for their Christmas holiday, and culturally its a central part. (Name one TV series that has been popularly spread around the world that doesn't have at least one Holiday/Christmas episode?)
So if Christmas is a central part of American culture, and has roots in Christianity (perhaps not all roots, but many) then what better place to make a stand for Christians in the culture wars.
You can't put the Christ in Christmas unless you actually say Merry Christmas.
So what is this site, and this "War for Christmas" supposed to succeed in doing? Its designed to take the aggravations of some petty people--the "Say Christmas NOW!" folks--and use it to create a movement to put the word Christmas back on everyone's lips, by forcing the stores to choose whom they will alienate--Christian Soldier shoppers or Non-Believer Shoppers. So far, non-believers will shop in a Christian Oriented Store more often than Christian Soldiers will shop in a Secularized store, so they are winning.
But it goes beyond that on this web-site.
They aren't just demanding that people say Merry Christmas when they may mean "Happy Holidays--all of them." No. They want to remove all secularization from Christmas. No Rudolph. No Frosty. No Grinch. No Scrooge. No Santa.
They want hymns and preaching and evangelism with every sale.
That will drive even many good Christians away.
In the end, they will lose the War for Christmas by pushing too far. Face it, while the Christian Music my be better sounding than dogs barking Jingle Bells or Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer, the rest of that stuff just isn't as much fun.
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There seems to be some overlap with the Palin/Beck crowd. It is a minority, but not a tiny one, and definitely not a quiet one. O'Reilly has already started his "war on Christmas" crap this year, and he's also pretty popular. Presumably it resonates with some substantial portion of his audience.
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