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Author Topic: Kent Hovind's doctoral thesis
0Megabyte
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Apparently the doctoral thesis of Kent Hovind, one of the major creationist/ID supporters and promoters, has been revealed.

(I'm pretty sure such things are allowed to be viewed by the public. Correct me if I am wrong.)

This is apparently the real deal. Have fun.

http://88.80.16.63/leak/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

(KoM, fair enough: I don't want to make it seem like I'm going to make fun of him for petty reasons, and I was starting to feel bad about saying it the way I was anyway.)

[ December 09, 2009, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: 0Megabyte ]

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King of Men
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Ok, look. He writes like he's in second grade, fine. But in strict, complete fairness, a thesis should not be evaluated by the formality of its language, but by the quality of its arguments and data. So while your quote is fine for mocking Kent Hovind, an endeavour I heartily support, it is not quite right to use it for mocking his thesis. Pick something further in.
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Eaquae Legit
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Eh, I'm more disappointed in his supervisor(s), if they let him submit it in such an informal tone.
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TomDavidson
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I think you're overestimating the professors of Patriot University, EL.
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Tresopax
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The quote sounds like a pretty informal start, but I agree with KoM - it doesn't by itself really give us any reason to think his evidence or conclusions are faulty.
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0Megabyte
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Yes, and I apologize. It wasn't really fair to start off in such a way.
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rollainm
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Is it common to refer to a doctoral thesis as a book?
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King of Men
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Then again: I skimmed through it looking for the aforementioned arguments and data, and didn't find any. Now there are admittedly a good number of assertions, which perhaps look a bit like data if you're not familiar with what actual information looks like. One that particularly struck me was where he was arguing that teaching evolution is bad for the US scientific establishment, on the grounds that (quoting from memory) "we are turning out students that many other nations can beat, academically". Now this may or may not be true, but as a general rule, if any such thing were asserted in an informal web-forum debate, there would be an instant cry of "source please!" Then there is the post-hoc, propter-hoc reasoning: The US teaches evolution, the US has bad students, therefore the first caused the second. What, European nations are still teaching Biblical creationism? You never heard of a regression analysis? Sheesh. I hope this sort of thing would not fly in your average junior-high project; for a doctoral thesis, well. Never mind the tax evasion, he should have been locked up for this alone: It is a clear case of libel against every other PhD in the world.
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
Is it common to refer to a doctoral thesis as a book?

Only, I suspect, if it started out as a commercial project and you were eventually convinced that there was no money in it, but it might add some academic lustre to your name. That might also account for the vastly informal tone.
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MrSquicky
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To be clear, this isn't actually a doctoral thesis. Liberty University isn't accredited to give out doctorates (or really any sort of recognized degree at all). You can call it whatever you like, really, but it's not a doctoral thesis by the common use of the term.
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Teshi
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The writing in this so-called thesis isn't merely childish, the construction of the arguments is as well. On page 83, Hovind informs us he has written a poem and quotes it. His arguments contain information that is at best irrelevant, at worst incorrect and tops if off with frequent non-sequiteurs and leaps to conclusions without explicitly taking us there. His references are embedded and incomplete, and no Bibliography is provided.

I would expect this level of argument from a particularly dedicated but not tremendously intelligent Middle Schooler.

For me, it's not so much that Hovind's PhD is a joke, which we have known since he got it, but that Hovind himself thought, aged well into his twenties, that this was the sort of material that Doctors produce.
quote:
The Flood was about 2400 BC, which makes it about 4400 years ago. The Tower of Babel was probably built within the first three to five hundred years after the flood. Let's just assume it was 1900 B.C. when the Tower of Babel was built.
It's a bit like the first episodes of every season of So You Think You Can Dance, when those very poor dancers come on and the judges ask them if they really thought they were at the level displayed by the top dancers on the show.
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dkw
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Liberty University is an accredited school. The paper in question was submitted to Patriot University, which is not.
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MrSquicky
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D'oh. I meant Patriot, obviously.
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scholarette
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One of the saddest days for me was when I took my master's thesis and did The Flesch analysis. Apparently, an 8th grader should be able to read it with ease. I know how the analysis works and why mine scored the way it did (lots of acronyms and abbreviations), but it still irks me.
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Teshi
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Patriot Bible University

Like I said, I don't think many people in the know think Hovind's degree was ever valid, but I think that people are generally surprised by how bad it is.

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Mucus
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Thats one quality university/shack.
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Samprimary
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Wikileaks is great.
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Belle
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Everyone who knows anything knows Hovind got his degree from a diploma mill. But, count me as one who is still shocked at how bad this really, truly is. I mean, I expected somewhat shoddy work (and I've read dissertations and master's theses that I didn't think were up to snuff but were approved) but I didn't expect THIS.

Sad. Very sad. I agree with Teshi - it seems impossible that anyone could think this was anywhere near the level of work appropriate for a PhD. Did he get all of his degrees from this university, or did he go to a legitimate one before? How can he get to the point where he thinks this is okay, even for undergraduate work?

Are we sure this is legit? It just seems so improbable that anyone would write this and submit it as a dissertation.

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Samprimary
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It does not seem improbable that Kent Hovind would have submitted this as a dissertation.
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Samprimary
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I went through the whole thing. Reading it was like a capstone on the story of "Dr. Dino" — of great interest to people like me who followed his story during his halcyon at the forefront of the creationist struggle against evolutionary theory. We knew about "patriot bible university," we knew about his conflicts with the law, about his travels across the country as a spokesperson and debater, about his dino park.

Ultimately, the guy is a massive tragedy of a human being. His idiocy and his self-centerdness was not constrained just to looking silly. It ultimately cost him his liberty. Ruined his life.

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AchillesHeel
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He makes the catholic league look good.
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King of Men
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I notice none of the local creationists are speaking up in its defense. It's a pretty bad piece of work when not even a creationist can be found to praise it. Perhaps there will be less quoting of "Dr" Hovind in the future? One can only hope.
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kmbboots
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How does a guy with such - I don't even want to say slim - non-credentials get to be prominent enough that people know who he is much less pay attention to him?
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TomDavidson
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He's got better credentials than most other creationists.
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0Megabyte
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That's a very good question. Why would someone with such credentials be big enough in the creationist community to have people listen to him? Even people I know? (which is part of why I noted this so strongly. People I know use his words. It's scary, really.)
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
How does a guy with such - I don't even want to say slim - non-credentials get to be prominent enough that people know who he is much less pay attention to him?

He uses the exact same evidence that you rely on for the rest of your religion: Repeated assertion. You have no room to criticise.
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Ace of Spades
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Is Kentucky Fried Chicken any less tasty because Colonel Sanders didn't have a commission from any "accredited" army?
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TomDavidson
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If Colonel Sanders were second-guessing soldiers in the field based on his military experience, I'm betting it'd be relevant.
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King of Men
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No, but I think it might have been a bit worse if comrade Sanders didn't know what he was about, and showed it in his every sentence, and then insisted on getting a paper-mill 'diploma' and waving it in the face of anyone who had ever seen an actual dang chicken.
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kmbboots
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KoM, I was not (at that moment) criticizing his evidence; I was questioning what it took to become a famous "expert".
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King of Men
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The same as in any other religion: Willingness to put in some time and learn the jargon; plus perhaps some luck, as in becoming a top actor. Since there's no competition on evidence (as you well know), it comes down to having a big smile and an outgoing personality. Nobody is going to actually check whether claimed credentials are any good; why bother? He's repeating the truth you already know; if the argument or credential is good, that may be a bonus in talking to the unbeliever, but it's hardly necessary. After all, there's such a thing as a different standard of evidence.
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Strider
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KoM, go ahead and ask kmbboots out already. I'm tired of all the elementary school hair pulling. If you want, pass her the "Do you like me?" note. Remember to include a "maybe" option. It leaves you an out.
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Dobbie
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I'd like to take this opportunity to ask both of them out.

KOM and kmnboots, please get out.

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kmbboots
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Hey. KoM is not my fault. I asked a perfectly reasonable question. How did this guy get to be famous?
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King of Men
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And I gave a perfectly reasonable answer: Nobody checked up on him, because the evidence and the credentials are not the important part.
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Ace of Spades
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My point exactly.
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kmbboots
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Anyone else want to answer? Is he a Joe the Plumber kind of thing? I hadn't heard of him but clearly he is making the rounds.
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TomDavidson
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You've never heard of Kent Hovind? He was a bigger deal a few years ago, before he got sent to prison.
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kmbboots
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No. Sigh. I live in a cave. Or rather, I live in a liberal University town where creationists may as well be hippogriffs. I only find conservatives on the internet.
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Ace of Spades
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Remember when the Duggars went to Dinosaur Adventure Land (check you TiVo)? He was the founder.
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MrSquicky
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I've never heard of him before this either.

From what I can gather, boots, he was more charismatic and...enterprising is maybe a good word than others.

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kmbboots
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Ah...so he just had enough money to make himself famous. (don't watch the Duggars) Thanks.
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MrSquicky
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From what I can tell, there's this pool of credulous conservative christians out there who are seemingly chomping at the bit to give money and attention to charismatic charlatans and/or crazies who say the right things. He was just another instance of this.

I think he was outlandish and so obviously incredibly flawed that people opposed to him found him really easy to focus on too.

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kmbboots
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Goodness, the crappy things that can bring fame.
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Darth_Mauve
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With his diploma being fake, that means that he bore false witness and was a false prophet (real profit though).

As such he is a dark stain on the evangelical Christian community.

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MrSquicky
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I don't know. Conservative christian activists aren't exactly known for their honesty.

And to be fair, it's possible that he regards his diploma as real.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
And to be fair, it's possible that he regards his diploma as real.

I suspect this is very likely. Most people whose degrees come from known diploma mills get quite insulted when that fact is pointed out to them.

(I'm referring to accredited schools (often nationally rather than regionally, which is a less rigorous form of accreditation) that are known by everyone in higher ed to have far less rigorous standards, accept unlimited transfer credits (including from non-accredited schools), allow students to test out of 75% of the credits towards graduation, etc. This school doesn't even meet those criteria, but nonetheless.)

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
Is it common to refer to a doctoral thesis as a book?

It's pretty common for doctoral candidates and Ph.D's to refer to their dissertation as "their book" but its more or less a slang term. I've never heard a dissertation called a book in any formal discussion.
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Samprimary
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Short copy: Hovind was "Dr. Dino," an outspoken creationist who devoted his life to countering 'darwinism,' and became probably for a time the most visible individual in the pre-Dover creationism debate. He's fantastically full of conspiracy theories. His "Hovind Theory" is one of the wackier things you have ever heard, and sounds kind of like something Ron Lambert would come up with. One of his gimmicks was to offer a reward of $250,000 to anyone who proved evolution, then made his standards for proving evolution impossible (including the requirement that you prove that "Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves" — hovind calls evolutionary theory and atheism 'synonymous').

He ran around everywhere, talked at private schools, produced materials for creationists, opened Dinosaur BS Land, asserted he didn't need a permit to do some things, got in trouble with the law, asserted he didn't need to pay taxes, government asserted that he had to pay taxes, he got charged, he still refused to pay taxes, he got sent to court, he refused to relent, he got sentenced to ten years in jail for tax evasion. He rots there today.

The end.

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Ron Lambert
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
I notice none of the local creationists are speaking up in its defense.

I for one am reluctant to speak in Kent Hovind's defense because I do not agree with his stand about local government control over his property (building codes, etc.)--and I have told him so-- and because his scientific arguments have not always been the best thought out. (And I have suggested to him some arguments he ought to drop and told him why.) However, say what you want about his scientific rigorousness, the fact still remains that many evolutionist apologists have become fearful of debating him in public because he is so good at debating the subject. He has the heart of a Christian Evangelist and a burden for souls, and that is something I honor. I was very sad to learn of his legal travails, and regard it as evidence of Satan's attempt to lead Hovind to sabotage himself--which is one of Satan's favorite tactics with people who become especially troublesome to him.

I know that when I have presented evidence and arguments in support of Intelligent Design and Creationism, and which contradict Evolutionism and Geologic Gradualism, the number one argument I have gotten is something to this effect: "Oh no, scientists are too honest and honorable, they would never cook the data or suppress it. Stories about them sabotaging the careers of other scientists who question Evolution must be exaggerations or misrepresentations. Scientists would never behave that way."

I would request that those who have felt this was a valid argument should take a long and close look at the CRU Climategate revelations, and think again. And look again at Ben Stein's fairly recent documentary, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. See if it is still possible to explain it away as just "exaggerations or misrepresentations."

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