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Author Topic: Avatar: Released Today
Raymond Arnold
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Bwuh? You just went into detail about how the main character, who is from the dominant culture, is clearly depicted as more fully developed and is appealing the ethnocentrism of the (presumably) primary audience. That's pretty much by definition racist.

If 90% of my audience is white and I make a bunch of movies where white people are heroes and black people are villains because I know that will sell, that is racism.

Well, we're just using two different definitions of racism. If your definition of racism is the act of catering to ethnocentrism, then yes, it's racist. But to define my own terms, racism is the belief that racial characteristics in human populations go beyond superficial variations, and that races are therefore definitively useful in characterizing individuals in relation to each other, based on that concept of race.

So, for instance, I don't find the gratuitous use of the "N-word" to be racist in and of itself, because I think the term "racist" has been misappropriated to be more closely synonymous with "non-PC." Ostensibly PC language is meant to reflect non-racist attitudes, but in actual fact PC language can and is as easily used to advocate deeply racist ideas as non-PC language.

So, I don't think these particular movies advocate the actual racial superiority of white people, but I believe they are ethnocentric in the cultural sense. Basically, that the cultures of white European descended westerners are inherently superior, and that these cultures are represented through race as more a matter of convenience and common practice. White = Western European = Cultural Apex. Does that explain what I was trying to say? I should have been clearer in my terms.

Thinking of it now, I think it's entirely possible that I'm wrong, and that this *is* in fact based in good old fashioned racism, but I think overall, and in the longer run, cultural superiority is the message that is appealing to audiences, rather than racial supremacy. Just ask one or two of our resident conservatives what they think about hispanics or blacks, and they will (and have) talked about all the black and hispanic people they know and like who conform as closely as possible to the dominant culture, and are "whitewashed" for lack of a better term. To them, it is a condemnation of ethnic minorities that racial or cultural transgression (being "white washed") is a source of animosity among minority groups. Rejection of the mainstream culture is seen as a defect, and incomplete transgression, such as with racially mixed people or foreigners of more recent extraction embracing American culture, is seen as affectation, and a sign of low self image and feelings of inferiority or weakness, or a lack of real identity.

I think you can legitimately describe ethnocentrism and racism and catering to either for economic benefit as different things, but they ultimately amount to the same thing. Our culture has made it dangerous to be "obviously" racist in the traditional sense, but that leaves us with a situation where nobody wants to be seen as even remotely racist so when you try to address problems that perfectly well intentioned white people are causing, they get all defensive and try to make the discussion about how it's not their fault or it's not technically racism instead of how to actually fix the problem.
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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by BFD:
Avatar rips off Speaker for the Dead.

I don't really think so. Superficially, a human outsider arrives on a planet with violent, sentient beings and proceeds to understand the aliens better than the humans who were professionals in the field ever did. The outsider then takes the aliens side more thoroughly in the inevitable conflict.

The principle difference between the two works is that Card's aliens have a culture that is alien to us because of biological differences and fear of contamination prevented the Xenologers from asking the piggies how is babby fromed?

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Lyrhawn
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I don't think it's nearly even that close. The Pequeninos were waiting for Ender to come. When he got there, they were willing to tell him things that they'd tell no other person, and he did understand them in a way that no one else did.

On Pandora, the Na'vi only allowed the human into their midst on a lark. They weren't waiting for a human to bridge the gap, but there is a slight similarity in that he saw things that one else did. I really think that trying to make the connection is reaching pretty far out there for a similarity that doesn't readily exist.

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Raymond Arnold
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I was thinking more along the lines of "OMG giant talking trees that are somehow connected to non-tree-creatures!"
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The Black Pearl
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I seriously doubt that Speaker for the Dead was the first book to do that. And while cool, it's not a particularly creative idea either.

I liked the movie, but didn't love it. The acting was average and D9 had more convincing cg to me. It says something when you only remember one character's name at the end, though I thought the scientist's actress did a really good job and had the best performance of the movie with the badguy coming in second.

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Vadon
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Hey, I can remember their names!

There was Jake Sully... And um...

Corporal Whatshisbucket
Dr. Somethingorother
And...
Max the lab guy.

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Rakeesh
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I prefer:

Col. Warmonger
Dr. Concerned Scientist
&
Technician Jealous Nerd

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TomDavidson
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*blink* "The scientist's actress?" Man. When kids today can't recognize Sigourney Weaver, that's when I feel old.
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Belle
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No kidding.
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Rakeesh
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Kids not recognizing Sigourney Weaver makes me think kids these days wouldn't know a good movie if Aliens dropped through the ceiling on `em. Though I suppose that's old-guy code for 'makes me feel old', heh.
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Teshi
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Hey, I recognized Sigourney Weaver and I'm of the age generally recognized as "kids today". In fact, I was glad to see her, because I thought she gave some weight to the plot. If her character had been played by Just Another Good-Looking Actress, instead of a really excellent sensible-looking actress I think the movie would have been much sillier.

You can tell who is a good actor, because they make the trite re-trodden lines work.

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The Black Pearl
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I knew that she was the actress who played Ellen Ripley, but I didnt know her name.

So get off of me, old man.

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Rakeesh
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The important thing is that you recognize the other super-awesome movies she's been in-such as ones where she played Ellen Ripley.

You're alright, kid. I mean, punk.

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LargeTuna
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I saw it in 3D and liked it a lot!
I also thought it was one of the most predicatble movies I've ever seen. But is was still an amazing worthwhile experience anyway.

SPOILERS:
.
.
.
.
Like as soon as they mentioned that someon had previousley rode the big dragon thing it was obvious Jake would at some point. And when they showed Grace being carried to the tree it was obvius Jake would be transformed in the tree as the last scene in the movie. As soon as Jake's girlfriend got flattened under the animal, it was clear at the last second she would escape and fire the bow at the angry bad guy. But I pretty much thought she would do that as soon as she got her father's bow. It didn't spoil my experience at all, but a little less forshadowing for each major even would be nice. i feel like there was even more moments i'm just not remembering this minute.

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Lyrhawn
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I assumed from the second I saw the preview that at some point Jake would permanently get into the Na'vi body, I just wasn't sure how.
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Glenn Arnold
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I recognizer her as Susan Weaver
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sinflower
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I didn't recognize her, but I thought she was great in the movie so I looked her up. She has an awesome name, too.
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Orincoro
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Wow, I thought I was young. But then it would be easy not to be familiar with her since she hasn't appeared in a big budget movie in around ten years. It's fairly impressive for her to even have household name recognition at her age, as most 60 year old female actresses do not. This part would never have gone to a woman of that age had it not been specifically for her working relationship with Cameron- which is really too bad, because far too many female parts go to women who either look too young, or are too inexperienced to play them. You'd think from watching most movies that there's no such thing as a healthy vibrant middle aged woman.
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Lyrhawn
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She's 60?!

She looks good for her age.

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Orincoro
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She is indeed, in fact I think she may be 61. But dude, think about it- Alien was made 31 years ago, and it's not like she looked like a kid in that movie. She's one of those rare actors that stay in a weird ageless sweet spot for a majority of their careers- sort of like Brad Pit, who has been playing characters in their early thirties for like 20 years, and he's 46.
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Samprimary
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Avatar is going to be the most profitable movie of all time.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I was thinking more along the lines of "OMG giant talking trees that are somehow connected to non-tree-creatures!"

Also, trees used as a conduit to preserve life/transfer to another body, ala Jane in Children of the Mind.
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Anthonie
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Avatar is going to be the most profitable movie of all time.

It may very well be!

I had the lovely pleasure to see it with Katharina, and we concluded it is a very entertaining, limbic system movie.

You gotta admit, James Cameron knows how to appeal to a large demographic. Considering the pace of Avatar's ticket sales, it will most likely at least surpass LOTR III to become the second-highest grossing movie ever. I'm not sure what I think about the two top-grossing films of all time belonging to James Cameron. [Roll Eyes]

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Orincoro
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Well, considering that some budget projections placed the development, production and advertising costs at half a billion dollars, this movie had to make a billion dollars just to become profitable, since the studio doesn't start making a profit before the cost of the film is payed back twofold in ticket sales (theaters keep half).
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthonie:
[/qb]

It may very well be![/QUOTE]

I'm a little bit more confident. [Smile]

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The White Whale
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I thought it was excellent. I saw it twice, and loved it both times.

And I found some interesting reviews/analysis of the movie and the reception it is getting worldwide. The first is an entertaining bit of speculation. The second is a interesting analysis of the movie and our brains. The third is a political analysis coupled with a review.

First, Making Avatar Make Sense.
quote:
The Na'vi have no common morphology with the rest of the planet. Sig even comments on it in a Youtube article. Why do they exist? How is it that they speak a recognizable language, and have genes close enough to human that it's possible to MIX IN HUMAN DNA with the Na'vi? How is it that the Na'vi have built in neural interfacing equipment that can instantly domesticate the larger animals and even predators? Wouldn't evolution make such a thing impossible?

The answer is that the Na'vi aren't a natural race. Eywa made them. They're close enough to human that the humans can communicate with them and think they look cute and cuddly (Ewya may have been slightly confused here), and alien enough that they can survive in the local environment. If that wasn't enough, Eywa provided with some elevated sudo privileges, so they could take advantage of the local fauna without Eywa being directly involved.

Second, Avatar, from the 'Frontal Cortex'.
quote:
At its core, movies are about dissolution: we forget about ourselves and become one with the giant projected characters on the screen. In other words, they become our temporary avatars, so that we're inseparable from their story. (This is one of the reasons why the Avatar plot is so effective: it's really a metaphor for the act of movie-watching.*) And for a mind that's so relentlessly self-aware, I'd argue that 100 minutes of self-forgetting (as indicated by a quieting of the prefrontal cortex) is a pretty nice cognitive vacation. And Avatar, through a variety of technical mechanisms - from the astonishing special effects to the straightforward story to the use of 3-D imagery - manages to induce those "synchronized spatiotemporal patterns" to an unprecedented degree. That is what the movies are all about, and that is what Avatar delivers.
Third, Why do Conservatices Hate the Most Popular Movie in Years?.
quote:
As a host of critics have noted, the film offers a blatantly pro-environmental message; it portrays U.S. military contractors in a decidedly negative light; and it clearly evokes the can't-we-all-get along vibe of the 1960s counterculture. These are all messages guaranteed to alienate everyday moviegoers, so say the right-wing pundits -- and yet the film has been wholeheartedly embraced by audiences everywhere, from Mississippi to Manhattan.

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katharina
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Considering the quote, the last headline should be "Why DON'T Conservatives Hate...". The answer, of course, is because people are not the stupid stereotypes the writer of the article wishes they were.
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The White Whale
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Yeah, I know. He picks certain extreme conservative critics that he clearly doesn't like, but I still found the article interesting. Like this one:

quote:
John Podhoretz, the Weekly Standard's film critic, called the film "blitheringly stupid; indeed, it's among the dumbest movies I've ever seen." He goes on to say: "You're going to hear a lot over the next couple of weeks about the movie's politics -- about how it's a Green epic about despoiling the environment, and an attack on the war in Iraq.... The conclusion does ask the audience to root for the defeat of American soldiers at the hands of an insurgency. So it is a deep expression of anti-Americanism -- kind of. The thing is, one would be giving Jim Cameron too much credit to take 'Avatar' -- with its ... hatred of the military and American institutions and the notion that to be human is just way uncool -- at all seriously as a political document. It's more interesting as an example of how deeply rooted these standard issue counterculture cliches in Hollywood have become by now."
The movie is very environmental/treehuggerish (I think of Fern Gully in space) and anti-corporation and anti-military. I wished that the head military man wasn't so gung-ho one-dimensional. The corporate-leader seemed to have some conflicting feelings, but didn't really act on them unless he was cornered. And it did end with the humans going back to their planet to presumably die.
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Matt Schillerberg
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I'm perplexed why people read so much into this movie.. How does this ask the audience to root for the defeat of American soldiers at the hands of an insurgency? *eye-roll*

Sometimes people just need to relax, eat popcorn and enjoy the movie.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Schillerberg:
I'm perplexed why people read so much into this movie.. How does this ask the audience to root for the defeat of American soldiers at the hands of an insurgency? *eye-roll*

Sometimes people just need to relax, eat popcorn and enjoy the movie.

Especially since the movie essentially states that all soldiers on Pandora are contractors working for a private corporation. While many veterans are in their ranks, they are not active duty US servicemen.

If some foreign country had super huge corporations that were doing what they do in the movie over here in the US, these commentators would say the Na'vi are taking a page from our founding father's book and banding together to evict a common enemy.

edited for grammar.

[ January 05, 2010, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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Godric
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthonie:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Avatar is going to be the most profitable movie of all time.

It may very well be!

I had the lovely pleasure to see it with Katharina, and we concluded it is a very entertaining, limbic system movie.

You gotta admit, James Cameron knows how to appeal to a large demographic. Considering the pace of Avatar's ticket sales, it will most likely at least surpass LOTR III to become the second-highest grossing movie ever. I'm not sure what I think about the two top-grossing films of all time belonging to James Cameron. [Roll Eyes]

Please note that when adjusted for inflation, Gone with the Wind is still the all-time leader. In fact, Titanic doesn't even make it in the top 5.
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Lyrhawn
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Does that take into account both the differences in dollar values and the differences in ticket prices? I'd think it should also take into account number of movie screens and the level of disposable income as well.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I was thinking more along the lines of "OMG giant talking trees that are somehow connected to non-tree-creatures!"

Also, trees used as a conduit to preserve life/transfer to another body, ala Jane in Children of the Mind.
And this just occurred to me, but I don't believe for a second that Eywa just coincidentally sounds like aiua.
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Traceria
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Schillerberg:
I'm perplexed why people read so much into this movie.. How does this ask the audience to root for the defeat of American soldiers at the hands of an insurgency? *eye-roll*

Sometimes people just need to relax, eat popcorn and enjoy the movie.

Especially since the movie essentially states that all soldiers on Pandora are contractors working for a private corporation. While many veterans are in their ranks, they are not active duty US servicemen.

If some foreign country had super huge corporations that were doing what they do in the movie over here in the US, these commentators would say the Na'vi are taking a page from our founding father's book and banding together to evict a common enemy.

edited for grammar.

Exactly. Besides, you've got examples of ex-military that go both ways (fight for both sides) by the end. Sure, one is a bit more over the top than the other, but still. (I commented to someone that if this were an anime series, some of the characters wouldn't have felt quite so exaggerated.)

What I find funny is that I saw this movie with my brother, who IS an American soldier. He's a pilot in the AF. He loved it! He certainly didn't feel like the audience was about to turn on him if he declared his profession in the middle of the theater.

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