posted
It is time to step out of our comfort zones. How does the one country that was created to last longer than any empire collapse as it has, and still remain the most revered super power in the world? It is time for a change people. No one in the United States wants a revolution, we are past the point of beheading our leaders. But let us look back into history to see where this great nation will fall. Ancient Egypt, probably the most advanced and educated culture ever to exist. the most prosperous of nations, and today is left to nothing of its original power and prestige. their society ran on classes, and there were no complaints. Human rights need not exist because each being was content on the level they were chosen to exist. The peasants were put to work, straight manual labor. Nothing filled their heads to make them think that they were unhappy. They simply worked, for the good of egypt. they erected monuments and raised livestock. A nation cannot prosper with unhappy people, so why is the everlasting memory of Egypt known to be the harsh leaders cruelly driving slaves to do their bidding. Evil is why. There was never any cruelty between humans when every person knew of their place and rejoiced to be there. one cannot truly believe that all of the pyramids were built behind a whip, with no desire from those who built them. there is a level of pride in every man, and every man exists to fill that pride. Imagine being a part of the work force who stands behind the architect and remembers building that which has stood for centuries. do you think that man feels shame because he was forced to build this against his will? never. Evil invented the word SLAVE. and evil also changed our perception of the word. Evil IS in fact a snake who decieves the man of his pride, but he does not give man knowledge and allow him to be punished for it. rather evil exists to destroy knowledge and hold a man to believe in something that is not within himself to believe. To promise something to man, something which man cannot grasp nor understand, and punish that man for not truly being able to understand this. When Egypt was targeted for ruining the lives of millions and "destroying a culture" EVIL is who led them to react in violence. There was an uprising and man is a being of war and power, when levels of society attempt to reorder themselves war is created and thus war has existed from the beginning of time. When there is prosperity, there is surely someone behind all of it fighting for some level of chaos.
Look at every nation that has gone to war with itself in order to abolish the class/caste system, those governments have destroyed themselves. Not every man was created equal, but every person has a place in society where they belong, we are all creatures that have a place. Do we ever see a coup in an ant colony because the workers do not believe that the will of the queen is enough? how come when you knock over an anthill it comes back larger and stronger than before? is it slavery? is each ant in that colony a slave? are there not hundreds of thousands of ants that could attempt to destroy one little queen? but they would never do that, because nature has taught them where they belong. each creature is placed where they will most effectively help the population. then you ask, why do the ants attack other beings if they do not crave war? This is a function of their society, they exist to eat and feed so that they can grow and continue to prosper through the ages. each ant that sacrifices its life for a meal does not die in vain, for they know that it is necessary in order to live for those that they belong with.
Now you ask, why would God create beings that can think like we can, and yet not make all of us equal? you are wrong, we are all equal, to an extent. no one person is more important to the function of society than another. if one of our intellectuals leaves he is missed just as much as a fallen soldier or worker for the masses. because our society is far more complex than that of an ant hill, we cannot follow the same rules. but there are guidelines that nature set in place that we should recognize. Why must people try to do something that they are not cut out to do. when people are told there is something that they can have, something that is unattainable in their current position, they become unhappy. and they will stay unhappy until they can achieve that goal. But the reason that they never before attempted to fight for this goal is because they were not mean to have it. There is a point where humans do seperate from each other and when found at the right time, two individuals are able to achieve total happiness without any of the same motives. How can one member of society so easily devote their lives to extensive education, while another provides nothing but manual labor, and both beings remain blissfully unawares of the other. They have achieved their own happiness, they produce two totally seperate things, and neither wishes to have what the other one desires. because they belong. because they have been chosen by nature to live how they do.
Imagine a world where every person has fit into their role, they no longer try to earn something or squeeze where they shouldn't the functioning of society then becomes simple, like a clock, or a machine. If every cog fits, then time is kept and we have a truly productive life. We will become like the ants, running a perfect little mechanistic life, but this is only from the eyes of the observer. Each person still holds his or her own personality, their likes and dislikes. Not one person is forced to do a single thing, but they choose where they want their life to go. They make their own decisions based on the knowledge they have about themselves. so in theory the only robotic part of our lives is how they reflect the prosperity of the race. in effect, there is no reason for individuality or success to be banned, they should be commended but not imitated. We can achieve happiness as a people, as a species, we can function like nature intended, we can rule the animal kingdom, and yet be a living part of it as well.
Now for the United States, a country built to adapt to the changes of the people. Our founding fathers knew that the only people who should make decisions were those who were educated, which is why voting was so limited and our first leader was chosen with no opposing running mate. Each member of society then knew his place, there were peasants, farmers, merchants, artisans, intellectuals, militia men, leaders, women, blacks, whites, poor and rich; each individual was able to belong to several groups and they followed what path they could because it was where they belonged. And we prospered. We led the modern world in example and we even changed the course of history by force. Did God will us to complete these impossible tasks? no we modified ourselves, adapted to the enviroment we had and fought for what we knew was right. During World War II, when our men dropped their lives to save the world from something that humanity feared, our women, those who some believed to only be the protectors of the Hearth, vessels of beauty and poise, the mothers of our great nation; they stepped from their niches and filled those vacated by the young men. Women became architects and builders, women fought and women worked. Does this imply that women were worth nothing before this point? Not in the least, but nature had never called for them to rise from the position they held. the species was not yet ready for the potential that women brought, each female that rose to be respected was taken down in fear of their power, yet now that they were called upon to save our great nation, we truly were able to respect them as equals to the male.
Now my friends, you who I call my equal of importance in this world, let us rise. Let it be heard. There is something that you want in life, find it, be it. Not everyone must lead this uprising of the mind, we will function on the masses, people must work for their own happiness, from the keepers of the sanctity of mind, to the farmers, reaching from the educators, to merchants. Find yourself, do not go where you do not belong, do not hide from that which calls to you. We need every person in humanity. It was once told to me, "People must not fear the government, but the government must fear the people." Let the government fear our people, we are of a new nation; a nation of the free, of the loved and of the loving. First, love yourself. So please, find yourself, and I will find you. Together we will find the world as it was meant to be.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: you are wrong, we are all equal, to an extent.
That has got to be one of the coolest qualifiers to a claim I've ever seen. It's almost Animal Farmesque. Essentially, "We're all equal, except for where we're not."
(I get that wasn't your rhetorical point.)
Seriously though, the poster reminds me a lot of myself in my younger days. The adage "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind. I'm not going to immediately assume this is a veteran poster who's bored with their free-time and posting under a different handle or some newcomer who's simply a troll trying to get us to bicker. Really, it seems more like a young person inspired by the Ender series that believes the internet could be a tool for change.
I could very well be wrong, and I don't mean any offense by assuming you're young. But what other posters have been (slightly less than constructively, I'll grant) trying to show is that there are a lot of faulty assumptions and claims speckled throughout the post. I honestly find this kind of idealism refreshing, even if it's inaccurate. When one believes they can make a significant change to the system through inspiration and good ideas, it's a nice break from the dry partisan punditry I usually subject myself to. I'm not in favor of shooting down that passionate civic energy with blithe one-liners.
If you honestly feel like trying to make a positive difference in the lives of others, I wish you the best and might be able to give some advice. I'm a fairly activist sort of person, and if you truly want some tips on how and where to direct your energies into places that might make a difference I'd be happy to give you some. I disagree with you on just about everything, but I'll take activism over apathy any day of the week and twice on Tuesday*.
If you're interested, shoot me an e-mail at zomaza (with an "at" sign here) gmail (dot) com. It's a spam account I use, but I'll check to see if you send me a real message in which case I'll give you my real e-mail address.
*Unless it's election day, 'cause that'd be a felony.
Posts: 1831 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm working on a novel set in Ancient Egypt, and I got a much different picture of them than you did. Women owned businesses and property. They could choose their own husbands, though a first marriage was young enough that her father usually picked. Divorce was sad but not taboo and property was divided fairly. Children were considered a great joy, and adoption was common. Which is good since the average life expectancy was only 33 due to sand getting in the food causing abcesses. They probably had a decent number of orphans at any given time.
They had no deity for anthropomorphic evil. The gods were there to keep the Great Chaos from destroying everything.
Slavery is always tricky because we have a clear picture in our heads of what that means that isn't even true for most of our own history. It's certainly not representative of anyone else's. Apparently, the words for slave and servant are similar so it's hard to tell how many people were bound to serve king and country in some way and how many were actual property.
Slaves by the New Kingdom had the right to own property, the ability to conduct their own business transactions, the right to an education, and were prohibited from being used for hard labor. The Book of the Dead even lists treating slaves well as a moral virtue. And while it's almost always guesswork, slavery seesm to have been much less prevelant there - maybe 10% of Egyptians were slaves as opposed to 33% of Romans.
If you want to call that evil compared to today, that's your business. But as far as ancient cultures go, I happen to think the Egyptians were one of the good guys.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Each member of society then knew his place, there were peasants, farmers, merchants, artisans, intellectuals, militia men, leaders, women, blacks, whites, poor and rich; each individual was able to belong to several groups and they followed what path they could because it was where they belonged. And we prospered.
The amusing thing about these sentences is how they manage to be so many different kinds of wrong, all at the same time. *laugh*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
AvidReader, I appreciate your more technical knowledge of the Egyptian culuture, I thought that I was proving the same point, where the egyptians were not only the good guys, but the best of the good guys. I also never held that slavery in itself was evil, it was a role filled by people and there was no real ownership, rather a very attached sense of employment if you will.
How can I better convey my ideas?
Posts: 9 | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
You might want to first get a better class of idea.
Just one quibble, as an example: in the bit I quoted above, you describe an America in which every person knew his place, and yet "belonged to several groups" and "followed what path they could." What does it mean to "know your place" when your "path" is to start out as a peasant farmer, become a merchant and militia man, and then die a politician and intellectual? Should the peasant farmer not have stayed a peasant farmer?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
How do you know every person has a "role" they are supposed to fit into? What exactly does that mean?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You might want to first get a better class of idea.
Just one quibble, as an example: in the bit I quoted above, you describe an America in which every person knew his place, and yet "belonged to several groups" and "followed what path they could." What does it mean to "know your place" when your "path" is to start out as a peasant farmer, become a merchant and militia man, and then die a politician and intellectual? Should the peasant farmer not have stayed a peasant farmer?
it sounds like sten. "No one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are."
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: AvidReader, I appreciate your more technical knowledge of the Egyptian culuture, I thought that I was proving the same point, where the egyptians were not only the good guys, but the best of the good guys. I also never held that slavery in itself was evil, it was a role filled by people and there was no real ownership, rather a very attached sense of employment if you will.
<blink> You are an idiot.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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2)Ponder Rawl's "veil of ignorance" theory. Is this the world you would design if "no one knows his place in society, his class position or social status, nor does anyone know his fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities, his intelligence, strength, and the like"? And "even assume that the parties do not know their conceptions of the good or their special psychological propensities. The principles of justice are chosen behind a veil of ignorance."
Be brutally honest about where you imagine yourself in this utopia you imagine and then discard those notions. Imagine that you were born to spend your life breaking rocks. Is it still so wonderful?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Thank you kmbboots I have often wondered where that might put me, but in a world where our highest ambition is our highest potential, which of course is a currently theoretical world, if it is my job to 'break rocks' and that truly meshes with the workings of society, well then I cannot fight what my job is.
If every person becomes content with whatever task they must perform, what would we have to be angry about? IF the farmers all strove to be the very best farmers, would we have a surplus? now imagine if every farmer wanted to do something like work in an office, where does agricultural production go?
I simply believe that if every person performs their job to the best of their ability, and does not try to "make a quick buck", but truly works, we will find ourselves out of the problem we are currently in.
My largest enemy is not those of you who oppose my ideas, not the intellectuals who can think for themselves, but those out there who are doing nothing for society, and I do NOT mean charity.
Work for the sake of working is what we need. I believe we had a president who pulled the country from the greatest depression ever known, by using this theory. When people began to work every day and earn something for producing, they were content. World war two can also be credited for the renewal of the United States, but is there not some part of what I am saying that makes sense? People need work in order to satisfy their innate desire to produce.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: Work for the sake of working is what we need. I believe we had a president who pulled the country from the greatest depression ever known, by using this theory. When people began to work every day and earn something for producing, they were content. World war two can also be credited for the renewal of the United States, but is there not some part of what I am saying that makes sense? People need work in order to satisfy their innate desire to produce.
Why don't you let people decide for themselves what they need. What is with petty dictators-in-training like you that you think you can "fix" the world by telling other people what to do.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: IF the farmers all strove to be the very best farmers, would we have a surplus?
That would have been very stupid of them, during the great depression. We needed fewer and fewer farmers (per population unit) during that time, because farm productivity increased drastically. In 1930 21.5% of the workforce was in agriculture, and in 1945 16% were.
We would have widespread misery if people didn't move jobs, because we wouldn't have nearly enough people doing what is actually needed.
If your call is that people shouldn't slack off as much at their jobs, I don't think that's much of a problem in the US. We're in the highest few countries in the world in terms of productivity per worker. We also have some of the lowest unemployment (even at the moment). That a number of people don't have jobs isn't because they aren't "working for the sake of working", but because companies are not hiring at a rate fast enough to replace lost jobs. This is not a property of the workers.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Hey, if I ignore all the faulty reasoning, the OP boils down to:
1) Being productive is awesome 2) Being happy is awesome
So let's all be productive and happy!
No arguments there.
I think you just need to jettison all the weird rationalization of castes and privileged classes and self-contradictory assertions about knowing your place + being free to choose your place.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I simply believe that if every person performs their job to the best of their ability, and does not try to "make a quick buck", but truly works, we will find ourselves out of the problem we are currently in.
What is the problem that we are currently in?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: How can I better convey my ideas?
Your ideas aren't good. But that's okay, neither are mine, most of the time. How old are you? Would you care to share a little more about yourself, before you foist your ideas on this rather cynical public?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I simply believe that if every person performs their job to the best of their ability, and does not try to "make a quick buck", but truly works, we will find ourselves out of the problem we are currently in.
What is the problem that we are currently in?
Ironically we are in a financial crisis not even remotely related to a lack of productivity. Would that the world economy actually worked the way that most people seem to think.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: 1) Being productive is happiness 2) Happiness is awesome 3) Slavery is good
That's what I've gotten from this discussion so far...
Also, a bunch of strange historical take-aways such as:
1. Ancient Egypt, probably the most advanced and educated culture ever to exist. 2. the most prosperous of nations 3. every nation that has gone to war with itself in order to abolish the class/caste system, those governments have destroyed themselves
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Honestly...your base assumptions are false. People do what they want a lot of the time, become more educated, change jobs, found businesses, move from state to state precisely BECAUSE they are looking for what works for them. Maybe not a high falutin' ideal position, but something they want to do, that feels right for them and their families, and something that is profitable for them so they can spend time doing things they like to do, with the people they like/love.
I am, or have been at different times in my life, a musician, a salesperson, a retail manager, and now I am (or will be after Feb. 3rd) a nurse. Should I have just been content to stay unemployed simply because retail jobs suck right now?
A lot of of success (and some of our failures, to be honest) as a country are because of the very things you seem to want to get rid of, and happened despite some of the very things you claim are desirable.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: AvidReader, I appreciate your more technical knowledge of the Egyptian culuture, I thought that I was proving the same point, where the egyptians were not only the good guys, but the best of the good guys. I also never held that slavery in itself was evil, it was a role filled by people and there was no real ownership, rather a very attached sense of employment if you will.
<blink> You are an idiot.
Was there really a need for the use of the word idiot? If you disagree with their interpretation, why not try to show them why you think they are wrong, instead of being insulting? Just saying. Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: Thank you kmbboots
You're welcome. But really. Go read. The idea that you are sort of toying with is not a new one. It has been explored in all sorts of ways - and ways that exposed its flaws.
Look up "Fordism".
You could also check out the caste system where it already exists and see if it leads to contentment and freedom.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I have read Brave New World. And I have heard of fordism. I simply felt like putting my ideas on the internet. I appreciate everyones comments. its making me better
Posts: 9 | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Okay. So do you see some of the flaws in your ideas? That human beings aren't really cogs in a wheel? That our own particular individual potentials do not necessarily line up with what "society" needs done?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: I have read Brave New World. And I have heard of fordism. I simply felt like putting my ideas on the internet. I appreciate everyones comments. its making me better
I guess you can't get much worse.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Yeah, there are two quick problems that jump out at me.
1) You posit that everyone has his place, and if his place is breaking rocks, then he should be happy breaking rocks.
The question is, how does one decide what their place is?
Is it based on genetics and family caste? Is a rock breaker a rock breaker because he was born a rock breaker? What if a rock breaker from a rock breaker family has a desire to be an accountant?
Is there some inner quest to find your place? If so how many people will find they want to work out in the hot sun breaking rocks, and others want to be comfy couch testers or video game testers? I personally would love to be a Literature Critic.
Or do we have a religious or government decide for us at an early age, who will be the rock breakers and who will be the administrators and who will be what? That was tried in the Soviet Union. The problem is that people in command were as flawed as people generally are.
2)What if the people need, or even want, more services than are being provided in one area, and less in another. What if we, with our machines and our progress, don't need any more rocks broken? What if we need computer technicians and we have too many pediatricians? What if there are too many people wanting to eat corn, and too many farmers growing cotton?
3) (Ok, I was wrong, 3 big areas) Say I enjoy serving food to people. I want to work and be the best at serving food to people, but now I prefer to work selling insurance because there is not enough money to be made serving food. If I just become a food service person I can't afford food, health care, and a place to stay or comfortable clothes to wear. Will there be no money in this New Egypt of yours. Will we get our food and our clothes on an as needs basis, and work on an as-can basis. That would be Communism in a nutshell.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Constructive? If a society doesn't have enough freedom you get rebellion and distress. You're not taking into consideration human emotions. Most people are not content to "stay in their place" because who is someone to tell them what their place is? If you are a slave,especially back in the old days of America's history you couldn't be content to stay in your place because your place SUCKED! It didn't matter that you had a place in society. It was a miserable place. You "master" would tell you who you could marry, they'd sell your kids. It was a sucky system. Plus, they disliked the people who worked, making them more money than they could have got without them because of all of this stupid racism. Folks should be free to find their own place in society.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mm45883: AvidReader, I appreciate your more technical knowledge of the Egyptian culuture, I thought that I was proving the same point, where the egyptians were not only the good guys, but the best of the good guys. I also never held that slavery in itself was evil, it was a role filled by people and there was no real ownership, rather a very attached sense of employment if you will.
How can I better convey my ideas?
I think I could have used a paragraph break between where you were talking about Egypt and evil. The thoughts seemed to flow into each other.
Also, I agree with you that what we think of as evil has changed over the years. However, your flow of ideas seems to imply that you don't see the inherant evil in taking away another person's freedom to live for themselves.
In an ideal utopia would we all cheerfully work for the good of all? That's one vision. Should people be forced to because someone else decided it was for the good of all? That's all together different, in my opinion.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
If we lived in a Star Trek like utopia, where everyone, whether they worked or not, would be fed good food, have a lovely roof, nice clothes, a car, a computer, wonderful medical treatment… (the list goes on - everything you could dream of) for themselves and their families free of any cost, then I can see some people working for the good of everyone, simply because they enjoyed being busy.
Working would be a luxury, a pass-time and a way of staving off boredom, knowing that you had total security. In that sense, if people liked having handmade broken rocks, or wine, or spaceships, you might make whatever it was to keep busy and provide yourself with a meaningful life, since even very wealthy unemployed people are often depressed about their situation. Some people don't want to work. They just won't do it. What happens to them in your society?
Until we have replicators, people will do what they do for a hundred reasons, money, or passion, or power, or vocation, or because it was the only job they could get right now. When your job is your choice, it’s good - and that keeps you going. When you fall (or are pushed) into something you don’t like, by accident and feel like you can’t escape, you get miserable. I’ve been there, it’s not pleasant. So I escaped, and chose my current job because it’s fun.
As others have been saying - how do you know what place is yours? Because if you know my place, I'd love to know what it is...
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Welcome to hatrack mm45883! we have a neat little community here and would love to learn more about you. A lot of new members gravitate towards the other side of the forums since most of us originally came here because we're fans of OSC's books. But since it does get pretty quiet over there, the seach function is cool if you have any specific questions or comments on certain books. have you been lurking here a while before you joined? I know I browsed hatrack for at least a few months before I created my own account.
That is if you are actually a new member and not like an old one who forgot their password or something else (we do get a few of those)
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and not like an old one who forgot their password or something else (we do get a few of those)
