quote:mal- the issue was not the deformity of the child. The thing that worried the doctors was the high chance of DEATH to the mother.
Really? That's not the story I read. From the St. Augustine Record:
quote:As the Tebow family gathered in New York last December for the announcement of the college Heisman Trophy winner, they were bombarded with media interview requests that included questions about their life in the Philippines, especially since Tim was born there.
In one interview, Pam Tebow related that during that pregnancy, a Philippine doctor suggested that she abort the fetus because the strong medications she was being treated with for amoebic dysentery, which she had contacted early in the pregnancy, could cause serious disabilities to the fetus.
"We knew that we could not do that," she said of the suggested abortion. "We all prayed to God for a healthy baby," she recalled. "And God answered our prayers when Timmy was born."
From ABC World News:
quote:While there, Pam contracted amoebic dysentery and the medicines used for her recovery threatened her unborn fetus. Doctors advised her to abort the fetus. Pam ignored their advice and gave birth on Aug. 14, 1987, to a baby boy. That boy was Tim Tebow.
Mal is right. Sounds like the Medical Advice was not so much "you'll die if you don't have an abortion" but rather "get rid of the defective kid."
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Placental abruption, while dangerous to both mother and baby, is not usually a reason to suggest termination. At least, it's not for about the past 15 years or so; maybe it was longer ago, or maybe this is a non-US-medical-establishment thing.
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I believe it was which makes the whole story sort of dodgy. If, indeed, this was not about a risk to the mother, I am less concerned about the implication that women who ignore medical advice have happy outcomes.
As I have mentioned before, we haven't seen the ad.
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Just to clarify, "placental abruption" can range from (relatively) mild to immediately life-threatening. Unless further specified, it isn't a diagnosis in and of itself that tells you much about what options were available.
At the severe end, the mother and fetus are both at risk of dying from hemorrhage secondary to uterine rupture and/or DIC. Sometimes immediate c-section is the only medically feasible treatment, and whether that means delivery vs. elective termination depends in good part on both the gestational time and the facilities available on-site for resuscitation and life support. [We are just now making it to reasonable viability for 24wk fetuses delivered with access to the highest-level care centers in the US. I don't know what the survival stats were back then and in that context.]
quote:Bleeding into the decidua basalis leads to separation of the placenta....The myometrium in this area becomes weakened and may rupture with increased intrauterine pressure during contractions. A myometrium rupture immediately leads to a life-threatening obstetrical emergency.
Severity of fetal distress correlates with the degree of placental separation. In near-complete or complete abruption, fetal death is inevitable unless an immediate cesarian delivery is performed. ... Abruptio placentae occurs in about 1% of all pregnancies throughout the world. ... Maternal and fetal death may occur because of hemorrhage and coagulopathy. The fetal perinatal mortality rate is approximately 15%.
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Edited to add: In case it isn't clear, I haven't the foggiest idea about what class of placetal abruption the woman in question may have had.
Like kmboots, though, I think that level of detail about this particular case is not relevant to all of the potential concerns about the ad. I don't really know what it will look like yet either, and I'm happy to wait and find out.
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I have nothing to add except to see that I'm glad to see you back contributing facts and knowledge Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Wasn't elective abortion illegal in the Phillipines then?
I don't know, but as a US citizen she could have gone back home and had the procedure done there.
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Just to clarify, "placental abruption" can range from (relatively) mild to immediately life-threatening. Unless further specified, it isn't a diagnosis in and of itself that tells you much about what options were available.
Fair enough.
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Yeah! CT is back!!!
quote:Wasn't elective abortion illegal in the Phillipines then?
I don't know, but as a US citizen she could have gone back home and had the procedure done there.
Or it may have been that the Dr said "you are in danger" and thus not been elective at all.
I obviously don't know which. But neither does anyone else posting here.
Neither will anyone watching the add.
This is why I agree with CT (and kmboots)... knowing the details isn't relevant to the concerns about the ad.
quote: Like kmboots, though, I think that level of detail about this particular case is not relevant to all of the potential concerns about the ad. I don't really know what it will look like yet either, and I'm happy to wait and find out
quote:Originally posted by SoaPiNuReYe: I'm not totally sure on this, but I think I've heard rumours of Planned Parenthood being racist, specifically involving them trying to abort large numbers of black babies or something along those lines. If that's the case, then I do have a problem with them airing an ad during the Super Bowl, or under any circumstances for that matter.
Can you be more specific and maybe provide some reference somewhere..???
Its in their Wikipedia article but I originally heard about it in a church pamphlet. I don't think I would take the allegations seriously though. After reading up on it it seems much more like an isolated incident rather than some kind of grand conspiracy. Planned Parenthood RebuttalPosts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Planned Parenthood does have a less-than stellar origin story, however. The founder was an avowed proponent of eugenics.
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Oh yes. Now, when SoaPiNuReYe posted that, it triggered in my mind a faint memory of the connection Dan_Frank is talking about, but I couldn't find anything about that in the brief research I did so I assumed I was thinking about another program.
However, plenty of founders of companies we don't usually dislike have had shady or extremely shady ideas. See: Henry Ford. Now their founders are dead and good the generally good or neutral stuff the do stands by itself.
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Dan, I'm pretty sure we've been through the whole historical eugenics pro and con, but here are some relevant Margaret Sanger quotes:
quote: "The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics.... We are convinced that racial regeneration, like individual regeneration, must come 'from within.' That is, it must be autonomous, self-directive, and not imposed from without."[25]
We maintain that a woman possessing an adequate knowledge of her reproductive functions is the best judge of the time and conditions under which her child should be brought into the world. We further maintain that it is her right, regardless of all other considerations, to determine whether she shall bear children or not, and how many children she shall bear if she chooses to become a mother... Only upon a free, self-determining motherhood can rest any unshakable structure of racial betterment.[26]
posted
From Planned Parenthood's Wikipedia article:
quote:In 2007, The Advocate magazine (not The Advocate), which is run by Live Action Films, called Planned Parenthood offices in several states, offering to make donations if the money can be earmarked to abort black women's babies. The calls included one in July 2007 to Planned Parenthood of Idaho offering a donation if it could be earmarked for abortions for black women because, "the less black kids out there the better." Answering the phone call, the state organization's vice president of development and marketing said, "Understandable, understandable" and continued, "Excuse my hesitation, this is the first time I've had a donor call and make this kind of request, so I'm excited and want to make sure I don't leave anything out." Planned Parenthood of Idaho's CEO later issued a statement saying that the officer "violated the organization's principles and practices" and was suspended.[18] Planned Parenthood's mission specifically prohibits racial discrimination.[19]
The Focus on Planned Parenthood newsletter stated, "Most of the Planned Parenthood employees who took these calls quickly ended the conversation," those who didn't hang up had a "serious lack of judgement," and to remedy this "our national federation has put forth a Donation Acceptance Policy" but that policies already in place made it impossible for the two employees in this case to have actually earmarked the money for a woman of any specific race(s), even if the caller posing as a racist actually had finalized and sent the pledged donation. They added that the "entrapment" involved "a 30-minute conversation...edited down to about three minutes" where the conversation started about a normal non-racial donation but the caller later indicated the racist intent for the donation.[20] The editor of The Advocate stated that Planned Parenthood of Idaho and the six other states were selected, in part, for having laws that allow single party approval of taped telephone conversations.[21][22]
Like I said before, I think this is pretty much an isolated incident. My fault for not citing what I said earlier.
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I think the call was a bit unfair. I imagine if I got a call, I would be thinking a lot of things, but I would probably not say most of it. I can see me saying a variation of the don't leave anything out even as I envisioned ripping this person apart to my coworkers. Not to say that the person answering the phone was not racist, but based on a call designed to set them up (and 30 minutes of unread discussion), I would not judge them or the organization. We've all seen the stuff Colbert gets congressman to say in interviews. Now, if they set up a special category on their website "click here to donate for black woman's abortion" that would be concerning.
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Following the link gets one to the "real" message. *shudder* I'm sure these folks are well-intentioned but they are paving a dangerous road.
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quote:A doctor recommending an abortion because of the risk to the mother's life is doing just that. "If you go through with this pregnancy, you have a X% chance that you will die" for example. The doctor is recommending what is a good decision from a medical point of view. "I recommend that you have an abortion if you want to live."
I don't know that the ad is deceptive. I think it is reckless.
The ad ended up not mentioning anything about the abortion or the medical advice the family was given. It focused almost exclusively on the value of Tebow's life - so I don't think it was reckless. Interestingly, it looks like the makers of the ad were counting on the controversy, since otherwise a viewer would not even know what it's about. I didn't even realize what it was until it was over. So without the complaints from the groups upset about the ad, it is doubtful the ad would have succeeded (if it succeeded).
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I didn't even realize what it was until it was over. [/QB]
Exactly. I was expecting the woman to get tackled or something because there just wasn't any funny going on. We could barely hear what she was saying to have any idea that it was Pam Tebow. What finally clued me in was "Timmy, I'm trying to tell our story." After that, I was expecting it to be the first of a series of spots scattered through the game.
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That was an entirely boring and uncontroversial ad.
Now the gay dating sites know what to do for next year. Just run a spot where a football player tackles some guy and then link to the website where the dudes are making out.
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