posted
PS: Alcon, I don't think I realized you're Jewish. But I can understand how being raised by "a pair of former hippie academics" would give you the impression that Jews never actually felt more than a vague tie to the land we were thrown out of. I think that if you read up on it, you'll find that you're misinformed.
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I wonder what would happen if I showed up at the land my ancestors 1500 years removed used to own and tried to claim it.
Who knows what actually happened all that time back, and what's the statute of limitations on land ownership?
I'm just saying that I don't think the legal claim is very strong, and the moral claim is much stronger to the view of the people who want the land than to anyone else.
I feel "bad" for both parties, in the sense that I think it's one of the modern examples of the absolute worst of what organized religion does to people, and I think it's terrible what people on both sides are doing to their families and to their enemies families over a tiny plot of land, two disagreeing books, and generations of hatred.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I wonder what would happen if I showed up at the land my ancestors 1500 years removed used to own and tried to claim it.
Did you leave on purpose? Have you spent the past 1500 years proclaiming every single day that you want and intend to return?
If not, then maybe you could skip the spurious poor analogies.
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Lisa, how many Jewish people have moved on? What percentage of the Jewish population do you represent?
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The intention to return to Israel is part of the prayers that every religious Jew recites every day.
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TODDLER’S RULES 1.- If I want it, it's mine 2- If it's in my hand, it's mine 3- If I can take it away from you, it's mine 4- If I had it a while ago, it's mine 5- If it's mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way 6- If we are building something together, all the pieces are mine 7- If it just looks like mine, it's mine 8- If I think it's mine, it's mine 9- If I give it to you and change my mind later, it's mine 10- Once it's mine it will never belong to anyone else, no matter whatPosts: 431 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:PS: Alcon, I don't think I realized you're Jewish. But I can understand how being raised by "a pair of former hippie academics" would give you the impression that Jews never actually felt more than a vague tie to the land we were thrown out of. I think that if you read up on it, you'll find that you're misinformed.
I never said that we don't feel more than a vague tie to the land. Or that we didn't intend to return. I said we left. It doesn't matter that we were forced out at pain of death. We left.
Once you leave. It isn't yours any more. Same as you show disdain for the idea of Canaanites showing up again and reclaiming the land from us, the Arabs feel we are out of our minds to show up and try to reclaim the land from them. It doesn't matter about the circumstances of our leaving - the bottom line is, we left.
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quote:Have you spent the past 1500 years proclaiming every single day that you want and intend to return?
I'm curious, Lisa: why do you think this matters?
There's a difference between someone who abandons a house, moves to another place, and then a generation later, his kids come and demand that the people who've moved in leave and someone who is forced, kicking and screaming, out of his house, imprisoned elsewhere, and finally manages to get home, only to find squatters having taken up residence.
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quote:Originally posted by Ass of Spades: Not to change the subject or anything...
TODDLER’S RULES 1.- If I want it, it's mine 2- If it's in my hand, it's mine 3- If I can take it away from you, it's mine 4- If I had it a while ago, it's mine 5- If it's mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way 6- If we are building something together, all the pieces are mine 7- If it just looks like mine, it's mine 8- If I think it's mine, it's mine 9- If I give it to you and change my mind later, it's mine 10- Once it's mine it will never belong to anyone else, no matter what
If it's mine and a bully takes it away, and I protest, I get to take it back, given the chance.
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: I never said that we don't feel more than a vague tie to the land. Or that we didn't intend to return. I said we left. It doesn't matter that we were forced out at pain of death. We left.
Really? It doesn't matter? So if I were to come to your house, and physically throw you out of it, take up residence, prevent you from getting back in by threatening to shoot you if you tried, I would gain title to the house?
Hot damn! I think I just found the solution to the housing crisis. Violence!
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Once you leave. It isn't yours any more.
Wanna give me your address, and we can put that to the test?
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Same as you show disdain for the idea of Canaanites showing up again and reclaiming the land from us, the Arabs feel we are out of our minds to show up and try to reclaim the land from them.
Not true. They don't like it, but they understand it. To a certain extent, they even respect it. It's when we don't maintain that position that they realize they can destroy us.
Here's a story related by journalist Aharon Barnea that shows the reality that you refuse to see:
quote:Salah Tamari, a former Palestinian terrorist, told Israeli journalist Aharon Barnea of the complete transformation he underwent in an Israeli prison. While in prison, he had completely despaired of any hope that the Palestinians would one day realize any of their territorial dreams, and so he was ready to renounce the struggle.
Then, one Passover, he witnessed his Jewish warder eating a pita sandwich.
Tamari was shocked, and asked his jailer how he could so unashamedly eat bread on Passover.
The Jew replied: "I feel no obligation to events that took place over 2,000 years ago. I have no connection to that."
That entire night Tamari could not sleep. He thought to himself: "A nation whose members have no connection to their past, and are capable of so openly transgressing their most important laws --- that nation has cut off all its roots to the Land."
He concluded that the Palestinians could, in fact, achieve all their goals. From that moment, he determined "to fight for everything -- not a percentage, not such crumbs as the Israelis might throw us -- but for everything. Because opposing us is a nation that has no connection to its roots, which are no longer of interest to it."
Tamari goes on to relate how he shared this insight with "tens of thousands of his colleagues, and all were convinced."
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: I never said that we don't feel more than a vague tie to the land. Or that we didn't intend to return. I said we left. It doesn't matter that we were forced out at pain of death. We left.
Really? It doesn't matter? So if I were to come to your house, and physically throw you out of it, take up residence, prevent you from getting back in by threatening to shoot you if you tried, I would gain title to the house?
Let me rephrase my earlier question: how many Jewish people think of this place as their actual home and want to return? As in, would leave wherever they are living now and move?
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Adopted on 30 August 1961 by a Conference of Plenipotentiaries which met in 1959 and reconvened in 1961 in pursuance of General Assembly resolution 896 (IX) of 4 December 1954 Entry into force: 13 December 1975, in accordance with article 18
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Article 7
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4. A naturalized person may lose his nationality on account of residence abroad for a period, not less than seven consecutive years, specified by the law of the Contracting State concerned if he fails to declare to the appropriate authority his intention to retain his nationality.
The Romans knew we wanted to go home. That's why Hadrian renamed it Palestine. The Turks knew. The Brits knew. I'm not sure what other "appropriate authority" you'd like us to have informed (God comes to mind, but I guess that doesn't work for you), but even international law makes a distinction based on declaration of intent to return.
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quote:A naturalized person may lose his nationality on account of residence abroad for a period, not less than seven consecutive years, specified by the law of the Contracting State concerned if he fails to declare to the appropriate authority his intention to retain his nationality.
But you aren't covered by that law, you realize; nor is God the appropriate authority. Most Jews have never actually lived in Israel, and certainly not in Gaza. Are you applying here to some sort of higher law, in which God holds a case open as long as someone keeps sending it back for review? If so, why?
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: I never said that we don't feel more than a vague tie to the land. Or that we didn't intend to return. I said we left. It doesn't matter that we were forced out at pain of death. We left.
Really? It doesn't matter? So if I were to come to your house, and physically throw you out of it, take up residence, prevent you from getting back in by threatening to shoot you if you tried, I would gain title to the house?
Let me rephrase my earlier question: how many Jewish people think of this place as their actual home and want to return? As in, would leave wherever they are living now and move?
Many people are afraid to move back, because of the threat of Arab violence.
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quote:A naturalized person may lose his nationality on account of residence abroad for a period, not less than seven consecutive years, specified by the law of the Contracting State concerned if he fails to declare to the appropriate authority his intention to retain his nationality.
But you aren't covered by that law, you realize; nor is God the appropriate authority. Most Jews have never actually lived in Israel, and certainly not in Gaza. Are you applying here to some sort of higher law, in which God holds a case open as long as someone keeps sending it back for review? If so, why?
Someone willingly choosing not to return home is not the same as someone forceably prevented from returning home. I don't know how much more clear I can make it to you.
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I'm getting too tired to continue making sense.
What I'm trying to communicate, Lisa, is that the Jewish people getting kicked out of Israel is history in the same way the Native Americans being practically wiped off the face North America is history. It happened, it cannot be changed and no one living today had anything to do with it.
The Jewish people returning to the land of Israel and kicking out the Arabs who were living there happened in living memory. It happened recently. There are those who remain alive who were at the other end of that gun. It isn't history yet. Though it cannot be undone - and I've never said that it should be undone - we have to make more allowances for it in the emotions of those who were kicked out.
That is why we must take the high road. Because in living memory - we were the aggressors. Even if it is land that we feel we have a bond to. When we took it, it was not ours anymore than North American is the property of the Native Americans.
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: You're still not answering my question. You answered a different question.
If everything worked out the way you wanted, and Jewish people everywhere could move back, how many actually would?
I know many Jews, and I'm fairly certain most of them are quite happy where they are.
So you don't have a problem with those who have chosen to return home, right?
I'm just trying to get a feel for the scale of the problem. I just want to understand how many others believe the same thing. Of all the Jews not in their homeland, how many are as fervently forceful as you about their 'home'? 10%? 1%? 50%?
I personally don't care what you (Lisa) believe. I'd rather get a feel for the diversity within the Jewish population. Scale analysis, if you will.
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quote:Someone willingly choosing not to return home is not the same as someone forceably prevented from returning home.
But the people who are wanting to return "home" have never lived there.
Why Tom, how dare you view Jewish people as autonomous individuals rather than a single homogeneous tribe.
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I've articulated my position a number of times before, but I'll do it again, in brief.
I am definitely a Jew who identifies with my people's yearning for Israel for 2000 years. To be a bit more nuanced, that yearning, for me, continues - (the yearning for Israel continues in Orthodox liturgy) - because that yearning isn't so much for a plot of land as it the relationship with God that comes along with it. God has a relationship with His people, Israel, and as a part of that relationship, He gave them the land of Israel for them to be a nation.
I believe that we lost the land and our relationship with God - the goal of Judaism for the last 2000 years has been to mend that relationship.
So that is how I am tied to the land. To be honest though, it isn't this religious theology that ties me to the land. The reason I don't feel compelled to up and move to Israel is because I think the Jewish people are still in a status of exile, even though they are physically in the land of Israel. That's because we haven't exactly mended our relationship with Him. And, at least personally, the land is only secondary to the relationship.
What compels me, and I think, what compels secular Jews, is a sense of history. We're pretty sold on the idea that we need a homeland. I studied Jewish history and it's pretty much a history of where we were kicked out of. Kicked out of Israel, spread among the Middle East, Spread to Muslim controlled Spain, kicked out, Spread to Western Europe, kicked out, Eastern Europe, massacred, spread back to Western Europe, Holocaust, persecuted in Middle East...
Even today, Jews are emigrating en masse from Russia and France.
I studied Modern Middle Eastern History. I understand the Arab and Muslim points of view. I get that the British and French made a mess of things. But I don't think you can expect a nation of survivors not to jump at the chance to return to their homeland. You can't mess with that psyche. My grandparents are all holocaust survivors - two were previously married, lost their first wives and children. They thought all was lost. And suddenly they survive and are able to do what all persecuted Jews for 2000 years yearned to do? To return to Israel? Even without the heavily messianic themes involved, the need for a homeland was too essential worry about what right the British or the UN had to give us land.
Do I think it's reasonable for a people dispossessed to return 2000 years later and claim their land? No. However, I don't think it's reasonable for the world to expect Israel to do anything but struggle to survive - especially in light of our circumstances. We aren't exactly in a position to be "reasonable."
We are trying to do the next best thing, we are trying to be compassionate, and we are trying to do our best. We aren't settling, zionistic, imperialist conquerors - we're a nation that is struggling to survive. And we feel sorely misunderstood.
That is our mindset.
(at least acc to me...)
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Feeling bad about it makes it okay to do it?
Every justification I've heard for Isreal comes across as so incredibly racist - "It is okay for my people to do it, but wrong for other people to do it to us."
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That wasn't the justification. I don't see how you got that.
The justification for a homeland is survival. The justification for kicking people out of that homeland? We didn't do that. The British and the UN did. The nations of the world (excluding the Middle East) did. They handed it to us. We're not talking 80 years after the holocaust, we're talking RIGHT after the holocaust. You expect a bunch of survivors to be all...hey, doesn't someone else live there?
1) Jews had already settled there, they had purchased land and settled. 2) After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, things were up in the air - self-determination, immigration, all that stuff, made it feasible for the establishment of a Jewish homeland. 3) It happened. The Jews got their homeland.
Now what? What exactly are you suggesting to Jews that will ever work? Telling them it isn't ok to take someone else's land? It didn't exactly go down that way. Telling them that they don't deserve to be there? Disagree. Telling them that they don't need a homeland? Blink a few times, swallow incredulity, and disagree.
In today's climate - what reasonable suggesting do you have?
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I haven't been to Israel yet. I've lived with Israelis who were either just finished their military service, or were half way through and taking a break in America. After spending so much time with people who feel so passionately about their homeland some of it has rubbed off on me and I do see it as a second home. I don't plan on moving there, but I will visit eventually, and hopefully more than once.
Just putting some input on how I view Israel emotionally.
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quote:Now what? What exactly are you suggesting to Jews that will ever work? Telling them it isn't ok to take someone else's land? It didn't exactly go down that way. Telling them that they don't deserve to be there? Disagree. Telling them that they don't need a homeland? Blink a few times, swallow incredulity, and disagree.
Abandon your bronze-age cosmology and assimilate.
I would love to see all governments except the Israeli and Palestinian ones get out of the business of trying to create peace in the ME. Let them fight it out, and the best genocidal tribe win, just as in the Old Testament. No aid to Israel, no aid to Egypt, no aid to Jordan. Conceivably the resulting war "would not end until it was fought with knives", but what of it? There is nothing in the area that we want; even the oil is largely on the Gulf side, not the Med side. Neither the US nor the European countries have any real national interests in Israel other than prestige and posturing for domestic consumption; this is not worth spending money and time on.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I believe that we lost the land and our relationship with God - the goal of Judaism for the last 2000 years has been to mend that relationship.
"Lost" it?
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: The reason I don't feel compelled to up and move to Israel is because I think the Jewish people are still in a status of exile, even though they are physically in the land of Israel. That's because we haven't exactly mended our relationship with Him. And, at least personally, the land is only secondary to the relationship.
And perhaps the relationship can't be fully repaired without us returning to the land. After all, Yechezkel says explicitly that our being in exile is a chillul Hashem.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Do I think it's reasonable for a people dispossessed to return 2000 years later and claim their land? No. However, I don't think it's reasonable for the world to expect Israel to do anything but struggle to survive - especially in light of our circumstances. We aren't exactly in a position to be "reasonable."
Wow. If I believed the way you do, I'd be marching with the Arabs.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Feeling bad about it makes it okay to do it?
Every justification I've heard for Isreal comes across as so incredibly racist - "It is okay for my people to do it, but wrong for other people to do it to us."
I'd think you'd be okay with "God said so."
But I agree with your criticism of what Armoth posted. Sheesh... it amounted to, "Yeah, we suck, but feel sorry for us."
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quote:Now what? What exactly are you suggesting to Jews that will ever work? Telling them it isn't ok to take someone else's land? It didn't exactly go down that way. Telling them that they don't deserve to be there? Disagree. Telling them that they don't need a homeland? Blink a few times, swallow incredulity, and disagree.
Abandon your bronze-age cosmology and assimilate.
I would love to see all governments except the Israeli and Palestinian ones get out of the business of trying to create peace in the ME. Let them fight it out, and the best genocidal tribe win, just as in the Old Testament. No aid to Israel, no aid to Egypt, no aid to Jordan.
Let's start a petition drive. I'll be the first one to sign.
And yeah, some people will assimilate. Look at Alcon, for example. But a thousand years from now, we'll still be here.
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As a point of interest, if you weren't here in a thousand years, would that be evidence against your god?
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Absolutely. I mean, not me personally, but the Jews.
Mind you, it wouldn't prove that no God exists, but it would certainly prove that ours doesn't. And that's the only one I'm interested in.
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Ok, now what if you personally had survived but you were the only Jew left, or there were, say, less than a thousand of you? Using the word in its religious sense, that is, as opposed to "persons descended in the maternal line from a particular set of ancestors". So I'm not looking at the genetics, but at the existence of a Jewish religious community maintaining the Torah's supposed continuity.
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Fewer than a thousand, I could deal with. Fewer than 10 adult religious men? It'll never happen. Oh, and at least one of the men would have to be a descendant of Aaron and at least one would have to be descended from David. The rest could all be descendants of converts or converts themselves.
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posted
Ok, your prediction is noted. Does the number ten, perchance, come from some particular ritual which requires that many observers to run?
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quote:If I believed the way you do, I'd be marching with the Arabs.
Why? What about your rationale for marching against the Arabs becomes less compelling when you look at it from Armoth's POV? Do the facts suddenly become obvious for some reason if you abandon some of your worldview?
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quote:If I believed the way you do, I'd be marching with the Arabs.
Why? What about your rationale for marching against the Arabs becomes less compelling when you look at it from Armoth's POV? Do the facts suddenly become obvious for some reason if you abandon some of your worldview?
Do the facts suddenly become obvious?
You know that Lisa is going to defend herself, such that this line will only remain as an attack against me. I'm not sure you intended to do that. If you did - super. I'll deal. My intention was to bring understanding, sensitivity, and maybe even compassion. But I prefer that my words not be fashioned into the spear for which you attack Lisa.
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quote:My intention was to bring understanding, sensitivity, and maybe even compassion. But I prefer that my words not be fashioned into the spear for which you attack Lisa.
Armoth, it's got nothing to do with the fact that they're your words. Frankly, any attempts to promote understanding, sensitivity, and compassion are all going to be perceived as attacks on Lisa.
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posted
Let's say that 500 years ago, some long-dead relative of mine was forced off his land in Scotland. They really wanted it back, as did their decendents.
Can I today, take a flight to Scotland and expect to kick the current owners off the land by laying claim to it as an owner 10 generations removed?
Nobody would accept that claim. What makes it any different?
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Ok, your prediction is noted. Does the number ten, perchance, come from some particular ritual which requires that many observers to run?
quote:If I believed the way you do, I'd be marching with the Arabs.
Why? What about your rationale for marching against the Arabs becomes less compelling when you look at it from Armoth's POV? Do the facts suddenly become obvious for some reason if you abandon some of your worldview?
No. Armoth misstated the facts. Or rather, he repeated some of the anti-Israel spin that's been put on some facts by others. Not that he's anti-Israel; but he's apparently unwilling to challenge what "everybody knows".
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“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”"
--David Ben-Gurion
You need to work on your reading comprehension. He's saying that this is how the Arabs see it. Not that it's true.
He's justifying the Arab reaction. You really have no shame.
quote:But, you know, as long as we're doing the whole quote thing:
"There is no such country! Palestine is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries, part of Syria."
--Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader testifying before the Peel Commission (1937)
"Those organizations which seek to differentiate between Palestinians and Jordanians are traitors who help Zionism in its aim of splitting the Arab camp."
--King Hussein of Jordan (1965)
"Jordan is Palestine. They have never been ruled as two separate states except during the British Mandate. Before 1918 the two banks of the Jordan River were a single state. When they returned to being a single state after 1948, it was a matter of building on the earlier unity. Their families are one, as are their welfare, affiliation, and culture."
--Jordanian Prime Minister Zayd ar-Rifa'i (1975)
"Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism."
--Zahir Muhsein, member of the PLO executive committee (1977)
"Palestine, Jordan and Syria constituted one family until the British and French occupation in 1918, which drove the wedge of boundaries among us. We do not differentiate between our people, whether they live in Jordan, Syria, or Palestine."
--Anwar al-Khatib, former Jordanian mayor of East Jerusalem (1986)
"We must distinguish the strategies and long-term goals from the political-phased goals which we are compelled to accept due to international pressures."
"The ultimate goal is the liberation of all of historical Palestine."
"Oslo has to be viewed as a Trojan Horse."
--Faisal Husseini (2001)
Oh, the list goes on.
I'm sure it does, but then again I'm sure that even the Nazis made statements justifying to themselves their evil actions.
quote: You have some serious reading comprehension problems. Ben Gurion didn't say we stole it; he said that's how the Arabs look at it.
No. Shame.
thief to victim: nah see, I didn't steal your stuff. That's just how you're happening to look at it.
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: I'm sure it does, but then again I'm sure that even the Nazis made statements justifying to themselves their evil actions.
Pig. In any case, those were quotes from Arabs, on the relatively rare occasions that they were caught telling the truth.
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy:
quote: You have some serious reading comprehension problems. Ben Gurion didn't say we stole it; he said that's how the Arabs look at it.
No. Shame.
thief to victim: nah see, I didn't steal your stuff. That's just how you're happening to look at it.
No, see, we have a quality that the Arabs lack entirely. It's called empathy. We can actually look at a situation from someone else's point of view, even if we disagree with that point of view, and even if the other person is an enemy.
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quote:Under the influence of the new evangelicalism, which treats the Book of Revelation very seriously, there is a wide belief that the state of Israel represents the in-gathering of Jews necessary for the end of the world. Hence her recent statement: "I believe that the Jewish settlements should be allowed to be expanded upon, because that population of Israel is going to grow. More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead. And I don't think that the Obama administration has any right to tell Israel that the Jewish settlements cannot expand."
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