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Author Topic: False Rape Accusations
Clive Candy
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Check out this story:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bronx/justice_happened_things_system_solomon_JyyLFVitMM4bx63gpD1ouI#ixzz0gSdPR2sB

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgxwPU0W-Wg

Look how emotional she was in telling that story. Often most rape accusations come down to a "he said, she said" situation and the man is left completely helpless. If it wasn't for that video that officers career might have been ruined. He might have been looked over for promotions because of the incident -- that's assuming that he wouldn't have been fired or even prosecuted.

What about regular men?

http://www.glennsacks.com/blog/?page_id=1334

quote:
Research Shows False Accusations of Rape Common

Despite its many painful and unseemly aspects, the Kobe Bryant rape case and the media storm surrounding it have drawn attention to a severely neglected problem: false rape accusations.In her recent Daily Journal column, high profile feminist professor Wendy Murphy dismisses the problem of false accusations as an "ugly myth," and calls for "boiling rage" activism to address what she perceives as the anti-woman bias of the criminal justice system. Like many victims' advocates, Murphy cannot seem to fathom the possibility that Bryant could be innocent. However, research shows that false allegations of rape are frighteningly common.

According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994). Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.

Kanin found that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or a desire for revenge. Kanin was once well known and lauded by the feminist movement for his groundbreaking research on male sexual aggression. His studies on false rape accusations, however, received very little attention.

Kanin's findings are hardly unique. In 1985 the Air Force conducted a study of 556 rape accusations. Over one quarter of the accusers admitted, either just before they took a lie detector test of after they had failed it, that no rape occurred. A further investigation by independent reviewers found that 60 percent of the original rape allegations were false.

The most common reasons the women gave for falsely accusing rape were "spite or revenge," and to compensate for feelings of guilt or shame (Forensic Science Digest, vol. 11. no. 4, December 1985).

A Washington Post investigation of rape reports in seven Virginia and Maryland counties in 1990 and 1991 found that nearly one in four were unfounded. When contacted by the Post, many of the alleged victims admitted that they had lied.

It is true, of course, that not every accuser who recants had accused falsely. But it is also true that some who do not recant were not telling the truth.

According to a 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive. The report notes that these figures mirror an informal National Institute of Justice survey of private laboratories, and suggests that there exists "some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions."

Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his 16-year career, says that false rape accusations occur with "scary frequency." As a regular commentator on the Bryant trial for Denver's ABC affiliate, Silverman noted that "any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes." According to Silverman, a Denver sex-assault unit commander estimates that nearly half of all reported rape claims are false.

The media has largely ignored these studies and experts and has instead promoted the notion that only 2% of rape allegations are false. This figure was made famous by feminist Susan Brownmiller in her 1975 book Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape. Brownmiller was relaying the alleged comments of a New York judge concerning the rate of false rape accusations in a New York City police precinct in 1974.

A 1997 Columbia Journalism Review analysis of rape statistics noted that the 2% statistic is often falsely attributed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and has no clear and credible study to support it. The FBI's statistic for "unfounded" rape accusations is 9%, but this definition only includes cases where the accuser recants or the evidence contradicts her story. Instances where the case is dismissed for lack of evidence are not included in the "unfounded" category. Brownmiller's credibility can be assessed by her assertion in Against Our Will that rape is "nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Murphy also contends that the criminal justice system is stacked against women, and that the law reform initiatives promoted during the past three decades have "failed to make a bit of difference in the justice system's handling of rape cases." In reality, feminist advocacy and the now ubiquitous rape-shield laws have made an enormous difference in the way the system treats rape cases.

Some of these changes have been fair, and have led to greater protections for rape victims. However, others have made it more difficult for men to defend themselves, with at times horrifying consequences for the accused.

For example, in December, the Arkansas Supreme Court denied an appeal by Ralph Taylor, who is serving a 13-year sentence for rape. The court held that evidence of the victim's alleged prior false allegations of rape was inadmissible because it was considered sexual conduct within the meaning of the state's rape shield statute. In that case, the defense proffered the testimony of two friends of the alleged victim, both of whom claimed that she had previously falsely accused another man of raping her. The court added that admitting such evidence could "inflame the jury."

In her book Ceasefire: Why Women and Men Must Join Forces to Achieve True Equality, Boston Globe columnist Cathy Young details numerous questionable rulings in which potentially innocent men were prevented from properly defending themselves by the rape shield laws which Murphy endorses.

One of these cases concerns an 18 year-old Wisconsin boy named Charles Steadman, who in 1993 was sentenced to eight years in prison for allegedly raping an older woman. Steadman was underage when the crime allegedly occurred, but was prohibited from revealing that his accuser was currently facing criminal charges of having sex with minors, and thus had an excellent reason to claim that the sex with Steadman was not consensual. Such evidence was deemed related to his accuser's sexual history and thus inadmissible.

In 1997, sportscaster Marv Albert was accused of assault and battery during a sexual encounter with a woman with whom he had had a 10-year sexual relationship. Albert sought to introduce evidence that his accuser, who had been in a mental hospital six weeks before the alleged assault, had previously made false accusations against men who had left her, as Albert, who was engaged to be married, was planning to do. Albert's offer of proof was denied, compromising his ability to defend himself. Facing a possible life sentence, he chose to plead guilty to misdemeanor assault.

Murphy's dogged attacks on Ruckriegle as a veritable "advocate for the accused" are also without foundation. Far from being a black robed patriarch in league with the defendant, Ruckriegle's rulings were reasonable and, if anything, minimalist. It is not the rulings but the reaction to them by victims' advocates and the media which are worrisome.

For example, Ruckriegle granted a defense motion that Bryant's accuser would not be referred to as "the victim" in court. Such labeling, as opposed to "alleged victim" or "accuser," undermines the presumption of innocence. However, this motion was hotly contested by both the prosecution and by victims' rights organizations, which filed amicus briefs and complained that Ruckriegle's decision created an anti-woman double-standard.

Ruckriegle also allowed Bryant to introduce evidence that his accuser had had other sexual encounters in the 72 hours before her medical examination for the alleged assault. Bryant's defense team contended that the microscopic vaginal injuries the prosecution claimed were suffered in the alleged assault could instead have been the product of various consensual sexual encounters.

Media commentators labeled the 72 hour decision a "bombshell for prosecutors" that "threatens all women," and likened Ruckriegle to a man who has "tiptoed into a minefield."

Murphy is correct that rape is a horrible crime. But false accusations of rape are every bit as horrible. They are a form of psychological rape that can emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person even if there is no conviction, especially for those of less fame and fortune than Bryant. The stigma attaches to the falsely accused for life. Few believe them and few care. Prosecutors systematically refuse to prosecute the perpetrators. And victims' advocates like Murphy refuse to see falsely accused men as victims, and instead work to minimize and conceal the problem.

When universities usually have their "violence against women awareness" week they should also have "False Rape Awareness" week.
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Mucus
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I am posting in this high quality thread
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Misha McBride
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this thread is awesome you are awesome
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Raventhief
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OK folks, yes, Mr. Candy's threads tend to be... inflammatory, but these are legitimate articles and it is a legitimate issue. So let's be a little bit less sarcastic until justified.

Clive, do you have a point?

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Kwea
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His point usually boils down to women suck, are dishonest, and should shut up and listen to their man.
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Lyrhawn
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You know, this topic has always given me a little bit of trouble.

I remember being pretty angry during the Duke lacrosse players incident when it was announced that the woman involved wouldn't be charged for making the false claims, or lying under oath, or numerous other things she really should have been charged with. The rationale used was that punishing her for making a false allegation might make it difficult for other women to come forward with their genuine claims, but I'm not sure that I'm totally convinced by this.

The ferocity with which those innocent students were attacked, by the media, the legal system, and seemingly everyone else involved, before the case had been tried, before any evidence had been heard, based purely on the woman's lies, is highly troubling to me. I firmly believe that rapists should be prosecuted with such vigor, but an accusation alone shouldn't be enough to turn legitimate prosecution into unfair persecution.

Thus I remain unconvinced by the argument used in this case, and others, that women won't come forward for fear of prosecution. I think the standard should be, if there isn't enough evidence to convict an accused rapist, then everyone goes home. When there's clear evidence that a false claim has been made, the false claimant is punished. That way, the burden of evidence isn't a hindrance to a potential claimant. Even being accused of rape can be a scarlet letter for men, and I think that's far too much power for someone to hold without any check upon it.

I agree this is a legitimate issue, and that Clive's position isn't automatically indicative of misogyny. I'm not wholly comfortable with my own position, but I find the status quo highly objectionable.

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Misha McBride
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
His point usually boils down to all women are shallow bitches oh god why won't any of them go out with me [Frown]

Fixed that for you.
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Raventhief
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I was falsely accused of cheating once, and it was quite the pain in the rear. The only evidence was that I had been doing poorly in the class and I did extremely well on one test. The school "investigated" me for a month, which consisted of every teacher looking at me sideways and declining to speak to me. They finally made me take another test in an empty room with two teachers staring at me the whole time. Big shock, I didn't do as well, and the teacher said, "HA I knew he cheated." Fortunately I did well enough that the administration believed me, but I had to switch sections.

Clearly not the same as being accused of rape, but false accusations suck, and there definitely needs to be some accountability for people who accuse others falsely. Our legal system is (partially) based on Blackstone's Formulation: better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. But that just isn't so in sexual assault cases. An accusation is enough to taint someone for a long time, and an accusation of sexual assault is enough to kill a person's career and social life, force the accused to run away from an entire life.

If I had been accused of cheating a second time, no one would have believed for an instant that I wasn't guilty. The same is true, and far more serious, for a false accusation of sexual assault. There needs to be accountability for accusers just as strongly as for the accused.

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Christine
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Rape cases do often boil down to "he said she said" which is why so many rapists go unpunished and why so few women come forward.

False accusations happen. They suck. But the only reason to start a thread specifically attacking women whose specific false accusation are of rape is to create yet another inflammatory division between men and women.

Or if I'm wrong, perhaps you would agree that we also need a "Falsely accused of setting fire to your neighbor's cat week."

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Misha McBride:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
His point usually boils down to all women are shallow bitches oh god why won't any of them go out with me [Frown]

Fixed that for you.
Lol.

It's okay guys, Clive probably has plans to hire a surrogate woman from some third-world country that he can pay to pump out a child and then go away and not bother him with any of their pesky 'maternal rights'

Because, after all, Clive takes pains to remind us that prostitution in this country is vilified because women act as a SEEKRIT CABAL to collectively inflate the price of sex

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Raventhief:
I was falsely accused of cheating once, and it was quite the pain in the rear.

*tries to resist*

*fails*


... THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID


augh sorry [Frown]

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
Rape cases do often boil down to "he said she said" which is why so many rapists go unpunished and why so few women come forward.

False accusations happen. They suck. But the only reason to start a thread specifically attacking women whose specific false accusation are of rape is to create yet another inflammatory division between men and women.

Or if I'm wrong, perhaps you would agree that we also need a "Falsely accused of setting fire to your neighbor's cat week."

I've always been under the impression that women fail to come forward less out of the expectation that their word won't be enough, but instead often don't come forward for fear of the stigma attached to being a rape victim, and not wanting the public shame or what not, that that entails. I think that's a taboo we could do much as a society to undo.

I disagree though that this creates an inflammatory division between men and women. This division, while not inflammatory automatically, already exists. Women have this power as a part of the status quo, and are rarely even given a slap on the wrist for falsely, even maliciously applying it. I realize it's a touchy subject, but is this a zero sum game where defending the rights of men is automatically attacking women?

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I've always been under the impression that women fail to come forward less out of the expectation that their word won't be enough, but instead often don't come forward for fear of the stigma attached to being a rape victim, and not wanting the public shame or what not, that that entails. I think that's a taboo we could do much as a society to undo.

Yeah, it is a MAJOR push in most schools. The statistics on unreported rape are improving, but the stigma issues still stand.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I've always been under the impression that women fail to come forward less out of the expectation that their word won't be enough, but instead often don't come forward for fear of the stigma attached to being a rape victim, and not wanting the public shame or what not, that that entails. I think that's a taboo we could do much as a society to undo.

Yes, absolutely, but I think it's all part of the same package. The stigma is that she deserved it or even that she was asking for it.
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Clive Candy
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/18/hofstra.case/

Related to the above story:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/25/new.york.falsely.accused/index.html

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sarcasticmuppet
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All right Clive, I'll bite:

From Wikipedia [/QUOTE]
quote:
The FBI's 1996 Uniform Crime Report states that 8% of reports of forcible rape were determined to be unfounded upon investigation,[11] but that percentage does not include cases where an accuser fails or refuses to cooperate in an investigation or drops the charges. A British study using a similar methodology that does not include the accusers who drop out of the justice process found a false reporting rate of 8% as well.[12]
Compare that to:

quote:
According to the 1999 United States National Crime Victimization Survey, only 39% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. For male rape, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey. The most common reasons given by victims for not reporting rapes are the belief that it is a personal or private matter, and that they fear reprisal from the assailant. A 2007 government report in England says "Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police."[5]
Please excuse me if I'm not quite sensitive enough, but 8% is not that large of a number. Some media-heavy responses are unfortunate when it finds them guilty in the court of public opinion, but there are worse things (like, I'd imagine, being raped), and speaks more for the state of today's media than anything else.

I find the huge numbers of unreported rape cases far more concerning. It seems that for every poor, defenseless accused man, there are handfuls of rapists who get away with it.

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Lyrhawn
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sarcasticmuppet -

I agree that unreported rape is a big problem that has to be addressed, and that as a society we're in the progress of addressing, though perhaps painfully slowly.

But I have a problem with what appears to be a position that we must focus on either one or the other. Why can't it be both?

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Clive Candy
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From my link in the OP:

quote:
According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994). Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.
Women habitually lie about these things.
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Raymond Arnold
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One thing I've never quite understood: when people refer to the stigma of rape, what exactly are they referring to? Is it a stigma of "what a poor victim," wherein people treat them as if they're helpless for the rest of their life, or is it genuinely a stigma of "what a pathetic person let herself get raped" or something to that effect? If the latter really is the case, well, that's really bad. But growing up I never felt the slightest sense that that's how society actually treated rape victims (I should disclaim that with the fact that I've never been in a position where I met an actual rape victim or witnessed actual people reacting to one).
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kmbboots
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It is the stigma that the woman is now "damaged goods."
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The White Whale
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quote:
Originally posted by Clive Candy:
Women habitually lie about these things.

Clive, this is why you're threads tend to degrade into "high quality" statements or cookie talk.

I was hoping this could develop into an interested thread, but it seems doomed as long as it goes in this direction.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I agree this is a legitimate issue, and that Clive's position isn't automatically indicative of misogyny.

Come on, Lyrhawn. There's a context. The same position can stem from different philosophical starting points, but you know as well as anyone that the Somalian is a bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic, antisemitic troll.

And Papa, please don't say "No name calling." I'm using those terms because they are the appropriate descriptors. I'll substantiate each and every one of them, if you'd like. It's no more name calling than calling him male. It's just who he is.

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Christine
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I'm afraid that rape, much more so than any other crime, sheds a lot of doubt on the character of the victim. It is often thought that she was asking for it, that she dressed provocatively, the she led him on, or that she was a woman of loose morals.

It is also worth noting that most rapes do not involve strangers. Date rapes are very common, though they are very difficult to prove one way or the other.

Lyrhawn: I don't know what the answer is in balancing out real vs falsely accused rapists. The trouble with punishing a woman for leveling an accusation is that the same burden of proof needs to be applied to her as to the man she accuses. In other words, if a man gets acquitted because all the evidence boils down to he said she said, it does not follow that she lied. It only means there was not enough proof. I wonder how commonly there exists any real evidence that a woman is lying -- enough to convict her of whatever crime label would be associated with something like that. (Sorry, not up on legal lingo.)

If there is proof, sure, she should be punished.

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jebus202
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quote:
Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:


I find the huge numbers of unreported rape cases far more concerning. It seems that for every poor, defenseless accused man, there are handfuls of rapists who get away with it.

It's reassuring to me when I am reminded that sexism isn't only a male flaw.

quote:
Originally posted by Clive Candy:
Women habitually lie about these things.

God you're stupid.
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scholarette
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When a woman is raped, people often ask, why were you in that situation? what were you wearing? were you leading him on (being a tease)? These questions make a woman feel like they are at fault too. How many people ask the victim of a mugging why they wore pants that emphasized their wallet, thus tempting the man. I can still remember church talks as a young woman were the rape victims were wearing "skanky" clothes and if you would just avoid those then you would be safe. I have read an interesting analysis of this in that women desperately want to believe their is a key- that the difference between being raped and not is not whether or not a rapist is in the room, but what they do. And so we reinforce this idea even amongst ourselves in order to give a feeling of control. Unfortunately, if there is a rapist in the car, whether or not you wore a tight shirt probably isn't going to matter. And knowing the seemingly polite guy from your physics class is a rapist is not an obvious thing (they don't wear scarlet Rs).
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by jebus202:
quote:
Originally posted by Clive Candy:
Women habitually lie about these things.

God you're stupid.
QFT
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by The White Whale:
I was hoping this could develop into an interested thread, but it seems doomed as long as it goes in this direction.

Clive knows no other direction.

If you want an interesting thread about this subject -- and I do think rape charge controversy is interesting and worth discussion -- you have to DIVORCE it from Clive and put it in a new thread.

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kmbboots
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Clive often abandons threads he has started, leaving the field clear for discussion.
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Samprimary
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And you CAN work with that, to some extent. But you have the disadvantage of having had Clive subtly poison the well for a side, as well as having had the topic start as a boiler, with half the posters mocking clive for being clive, and the other half expressing disapproval when clive proves that he's still clive.

Someone should start a new thread, and PJ should lock this one and tell Clive that he's not allowed to start threads. This is not an outrageous proposal. Clive acts as a very straightforward test of when moderation of a subject troll should occur.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I agree this is a legitimate issue, and that Clive's position isn't automatically indicative of misogyny.

Come on, Lyrhawn. There's a context. The same position can stem from different philosophical starting points, but you know as well as anyone that the Somalian is a bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic, antisemitic troll.

And Papa, please don't say "No name calling." I'm using those terms because they are the appropriate descriptors. I'll substantiate each and every one of them, if you'd like. It's no more name calling than calling him male. It's just who he is.

Alright, then let me say that a position espoused by Clive, or a thread started by Clive on a legitimate topic, doesn't automatically mean that it's a bad position, or an unworthy topic. Sure, his reputation taints the process some, but surely we're a community that can independently evaluate something rather than simply striking it down due to association.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
Lyrhawn: I don't know what the answer is in balancing out real vs falsely accused rapists. The trouble with punishing a woman for leveling an accusation is that the same burden of proof needs to be applied to her as to the man she accuses. In other words, if a man gets acquitted because all the evidence boils down to he said she said, it does not follow that she lied. It only means there was not enough proof. I wonder how commonly there exists any real evidence that a woman is lying -- enough to convict her of whatever crime label would be associated with something like that. (Sorry, not up on legal lingo.)

If there is proof, sure, she should be punished.

That's more or less the position I was espousing above. If there's no evidence one way or the other, it's a wash, and no one is punished. In the case of the Duke University students, and I think in the Hofstra University case as well, the police knew that the woman in question was lying (after an investigation) and still chose not to punish her. That's the type of case I'm referring to when punishment should be given. But I'm under no circumstances out to put a barrier in the way of women who are already hesitant to come forward.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Alright, then let me say that a position espoused by Clive, or a thread started by Clive on a legitimate topic, doesn't automatically mean that it's a bad position, or an unworthy topic. Sure, his reputation taints the process some, but surely we're a community that can independently evaluate something rather than simply striking it down due to association.

This is true. I've gotten frustrated a couple of times when I've seen topics which would have had potential if started by anyone else turn into talks about girl scout cookies.

This particular topic got my hackles up a bit, probably because Clive accused women of often lying about being raped.

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mr_porteiro_head
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Assuming that what he quoted is factually correct, isn't that a valid conclusion?
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sarcasticmuppet
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Lyrhawn, I see what you're saying, and so I'll clarify my point a little. While I think false rape accusations are unfortunate, I don't think they are unfortunate enough to warrant any drastic change to our currently existing judicial and law enforcement systems. Is the rate of false accusations of rape comparable to, say, theft? If a case goes to trial, the law exists to serve those who may be falsely accused. Innocent until proven guilty. Burden of proof. These aren't optional. They are actual protections against people who are accused wrongly of any crime. If someone knowingly spreads lies about you (through libel or slander/defamation) there are ways to respond to it legally.

Like I said, sometimes false accusations can cause harm due to the media frenzy that is so anxious to jump on them. This is also unfortunate, and I don't really have a solution to it that wouldn't come at the cost of constitutional rights of free speech. Ideally, the media should butt out a little when there's an ongoing investigation or trial, but enforcing that is asking for people to go against the constitution.

I do think that the concern of unreported rape cases is a bigger concern, because while there is already a system that (perhaps imperfectly) protects the falsely accused, there is a larger and more insidious cultural influence that is keeping women from reporting rape. Many victims fear retaliation from the accused, or blame from the system that is supposed to protect them. The law cannot be upheld if these behaviors are encouraged.

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Stephan
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Any pshychologist on board? I would love their opinion of Clive Candy. I am under the assumption he suffered some type of tragedy involving his mother. This clearly goes beyond not finding a date.
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Lisa
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Wait, Clive was dating his own mother?
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Wait, Clive was dating his own mother?

I mean this in all seriousness, and not in jest. I honestly and firmly believe Clive's mother left his father for a Jewish man.
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Dobbie
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How do you know it was a man?
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Raventhief
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Muppet, the law protects a person from being punished by the law if found not guilty. But even if an accused rapist is found not guilty, there are no protections against having reputations ruined. More than one person acquitted of rape has felt the need to abandon his/her life and start afresh from purely social pressures.

And can we please stop discussing Clive's character and/or emotional history and focus on the actual issue?

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Wait, Clive was dating his own mother?

I mean this in all seriousness, and not in jest. I honestly and firmly believe Clive's mother left his father for a Jewish man.
Well, that'd explain an awful lot.
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Stephan
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Fine. How about:

"Often MOST rape accusations come down to a "he said, she said" situation and the MAN is left completely helpless."

This statement cannot possibly be substantiated by rape case statistics.

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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Wait, Clive was dating his own mother?

I mean this in all seriousness, and not in jest. I honestly and firmly believe Clive's mother left his father for a Jewish man.
Well, that'd explain an awful lot.
My father HATES black people. He was also beaten by a group of 5 of them when he was younger. Its a wonder that I was raised without the hate, and I didn't even know of his until I was much older. The kind of hate and prejudice Clive has, has to stem from something. Either passed from his parents, or a traumatic experience. Either way, I would consider it a disibility that should be delt with by a psychologist and not taunted at on a message board. We should take the high road here and encourage him to get help. What is worse, as Jews taunting him in his mind might even prove his point.
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Lisa
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Clive: "Go away or I shall taunt you another time!"
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Papa Janitor
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Ok -- this is a temporary thing, while I work through this with the Cards. For the time being, Clive please do not start any new threads. Samprimary and Lisa, please do not respond to any of Clive's posts in any threads (Clive you will not try to take advantage of this), and everyone please stop talking about Clive in the third person, trying to discern or declare why he believes as he does. And for now I'm locking this thread (I regret that this might cause a lost post for one or more people).
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