This little girl died because her parents beat her for not saying a word correctly. They were followers of Michael Pearl who advocates extreme child rearing practices as you can see from this link. http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html Something must be done. This isn't even reasonable sort of spanking, and one must understand I'm against that too. This guy teaches to spank, no, not spank, HIT at infancy. There's nothing reasonable about this guy's methods. Pearl's church makes millions a year and is tax exempt and teaches this sort of thing. It's not right. It's not a matter of taking away someone's religious freedom because teaching parents to abuse children isn't freedom. Not to mention there's his wife's book Created to Be His Helpmeet which teaches women to endure abuse and cruelty. These folks must be stopped somehow. http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/03/03/no-laughing-matter-michael-pearls-callous-response-to-critics/#more-4517 Plus Michael Pearl has responded to the death of this little girl so callously. Here's some more links. http://www.amazon.com/Train-Up-Child-Michael-Pearl/dp/1892112000/ref=pd_sim_b_3 Amazon sells this book. I don't believe in censorship, but this is an exception. Should they really sell a book that is basically a child abuse manual? http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2010/02/who-is-speaking-out-against-abuse/ http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/category/michaelanddebipearl/ Something must be done. These people must be stopped. They cannot be allowed to promote child rearing methods that have already killed two children and are destroying countless others. I propose writing to 60 Minutes, Oprah, Dr. Phil, anyone who will listen and expose and stop these people. It's not acceptable at all.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Pearl's church makes millions a year and is tax exempt and teaches this sort of thing. It's not right.
What's not right -- what they teach, or that they have tax exempt status?
quote:It's not a matter of taking away someone's religious freedom because teaching parents to abuse children isn't freedom.
Stripping away the inflamatory words you're using, why isn't it?
quote: I don't believe in censorship, but this is an exception.
You most definitely do believe in censorship.
It's that they have tax exempt status to teach people how to abuse. There's nothing right about what they are teaching. Hitting a child for crying? With 1/4 inch plumbing line? There's acceptions. I'm not really saying ban the book (But I won't mind if it was) I'm saying Amazon really shouldn't sell a book that supports abusing children, giving these folks another platform. But then there's the possibility of it going underground and being sold there. There's got to be some sort of exception here. Folks have got to value children enough to protect them from stuff that is pure abuse. Read some of those links and tell me that isn't abusive and unnecessarily cruel and that somehow these people aren't responsible for these children's deaths. I've read this guy's No Greater Joy Website where he talks about hitting an 11 month old child with a flexible instrument for crying to go outside. Or his wife karate chopped a two year old. It's really warped...
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It would be wrong (or at least slippery) for the government to ban the book, but nothing wrong with amazon choosing not to sell it.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: It would be wrong (or at least slippery) for the government to ban the book, but nothing wrong with amazon choosing not to sell it.
Yeah, government book bannings bother me, but hurting children like this bothers me more. I would like to boycott Amazon to make them reconsider selling this book. Though I adore Amazon.
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Has anyone previously made an attempt to get Amazon to stop?
I'm trying to remember how the whole Amazon-gay-fail thing went (when Amazon suddenly reclassified all gay-related stories as "for mature audiences only", even childrens books).
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Folks have wrote to them, but they said as long as it's legal they can sell it. Amazon is kind of bugging me. Maybe I could switch. As that's not right to reclassify gay related stories as mature audiences if it's not about, say... bondage or something. Plus there's ebay and Half.com.
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quote:It's that they have tax exempt status to teach people how to abuse.
That's not why they have tax exempt status.
quote:There's nothing right about what they are teaching.
That's not a reason to deny tax exempt status.
quote: I'm not really saying ban the book (But I won't mind if it was) I'm saying Amazon really shouldn't sell a book that supports abusing children, giving these folks another platform.
So, you don't want to ban the book, but you don't want anybody to be able to buy it?
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I think Pearl's methods are sickening, and the fact that they seem to work is frightening, not persuasive. Congratulations, you've found a method of suppressing individuality. Good job, Mike! (All the laughing he describes in that first link sounds extremely creepy.)
But he doesn't advocate killing your kids, or putting them in critical condition. So his culpability in this case is questionable.
As far as I can tell, Porter is right about tax exempt status. Pressuring Amazon is a good idea, although I don't know if it would work.
Porter: "...you don't want anybody to be able to buy it?" Is there anything that you would not try to ban entirely, but would pressure Target (for instance) not to stock on their shelves?
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quote:Porter: "...you don't want anybody to be able to buy it?" Is there anything that you would not try to ban entirely, but would pressure Target (for instance) not to stock on their shelves?
First of all, there are important differences between Amazon and Target. But that doesn't really matter for the rest of this post.
Second of all, I don't think that censorship is a dirty word. There are times that I think censorship is appropriate. I certainly censor what can be watched or read in my home.
Yes, there are things that I might pressure Target or Amazon to not carry. I wouldn't try to fool myself that it's not censorship, though.
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quote:It's that they have tax exempt status to teach people how to abuse.
That's not why they have tax exempt status.
quote:There's nothing right about what they are teaching.
That's not a reason to deny tax exempt status.
quote: I'm not really saying ban the book (But I won't mind if it was) I'm saying Amazon really shouldn't sell a book that supports abusing children, giving these folks another platform.
So, you don't want to ban the book, but you don't want anybody to be able to buy it?
They are a religious group, but... a rather abusive one. Have you read samples of what these folks advocate? The beating of children is bad enough, but they also say a wife should stay with an abusive husband or a husband who molests his kids. It's kind of warped, but I don't know how to fight it. It rankles me that they make tax free millions teaching people to be that cruel. I think, religious rights is one thing, but these kids. Nope, I care more about those kids and people should not hurt kids and call it their religious right. Which they will probably do. Which they have already done. Folks will sadly still be able to buy the book. These folks have newsletters and are very popular with some homeschoolers. Some. There's just something rankling about selling a book that is this cruel towards children. What do you suggest can be done, mr_porteiro_head? I can care less about folks selling Playboys and the like, especially if they are out of reach of people too young to look at them, but there's just something about this... Doesn't it seem kind of wrong? Especially the way Pearl claims he doesn't support physical punishment, but the whole site, most of this book is pull this newborn baby's hair because she bit your breasts or show this four month old a gun and hit them if they try to touch it.
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quote:Porter: "...you don't want anybody to be able to buy it?" Is there anything that you would not try to ban entirely, but would pressure Target (for instance) not to stock on their shelves?
First of all, there are important differences between Amazon and Target. But that doesn't really matter for the rest of this post.
Second of all, I don't think that censorship is a dirty word. There are times that I think censorship is appropriate. I certainly censor what can be watched or read in my home.
Yes, there are things that I might pressure Target or Amazon to not carry. I wouldn't try to fool myself that it's not censorship, though.
OK. Maybe it is. There's just something that is so DISTURBING about this kind of book. And I did read it. And their website as well. I don't get why so many folks follow this. It seems needlessly harsh when you're talking about a small, tiny child.
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quote:First of all, there are important differences between Amazon and Target.
Yes, I agree. However, neither one has the power to prevent anyone from buying any item. So the differences aren't really relevant to the point.
quote:Second of all, I don't think that censorship is a dirty word. There are times that I think censorship is appropriate. I certainly censor what can be watched or read in my home.
Me too.
quote:Yes, there are things that I might pressure Target or Amazon to not carry. I wouldn't try to fool myself that it's not censorship, though.
Me too again. However, 'censorship' is far more important for us to pay attention to if it's done by a government. Censorship by Amazon I don't care about.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I think Pearl's methods are sickening, and the fact that they seem to work is frightening, not persuasive.
How do you define "work"?
I am sure it is great to create terrified, obedient children, but as far as creating a functional member of society without any mental issues and crippling emotional frailty, I am not seeing it.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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Synesthesia, there is a public statement against this at the Gentle Christian Mothers website which you can sign in support. I seem to recall that you are a member there.
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Edited to add: I'm not familiar with that site myself, having just found it incidentally. But it seems really nice.
Posts: 831 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Treat a human being like a dog long enough and you can talk to them like a dog, beat them and order them to do whatever they can understand to do. Making children afraid of you is not difficult, and getting them to obey you when they truely believe that your word is God and there is no safety from your "training."
On the large scale Im not worried about zealots like Pearl, hell the guy is basically spouting off about the neo-puritanism that America saw between 1930 and 1950 and all that did was birth the hippie generation. This guy and his compatriots are sick for thinking that children need to be treated as projects and not people, but lets not forget that any parent is responsible for what comes into thier home and some stupid people thought it best to just keep hitting those babies.
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I'm trying to figure out why M_P_H is over analyzing the OP.
As for being charged, I'm kind of wondering why the claims they make in the book aren't evidence of a chargeable offense. Never mind banning the book, offer it as evidence, and put them in jail.
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quote: For example, libraries refusing to carry items based on their content is not always wrong.
At fourteen I rented that Tom Hanks movie Bachelor Party from my library, in hindsight someone should have known not to let teenagers get movies that include donkey shows. But I also went to a High School that did have not a list of books that you were unallowed to use for class reports and such, instead we a had a list of approved books that didnt even scrape thirty titles. I still cant stand The Hobbit.
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quote:I also went to a High School that did have not a list of books that you were unallowed to use for class reports and such, instead we a had a list of approved books that didnt even scrape thirty titles.
That doesn't sound so odd. We didn't have a school-wide list, but I remember several of my English classes in high school having a list of books you could read for book reports. The lists might have been around 30 books long. There were enough that I never repeated any of them.
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We had the school-wide list but then each teacher had thier own opinion's and preferances. I was in HS from 02 to 06 and the state-wide AIMS test was more important than actual education, so "we" would read one book "together" partly in class and at home alone. Can you imagine reading The Hobbit for the third time sitting there listening to seventeen year-olds who have to sound out the words?
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I don't agree that that should not be allowed to say what they like. Personally, I like it when idiots with abusive tendencies make themselves so easy to identify. And I'm uneasy with telling someone they can't say something.
I also fully support telling other people how obnoxious this group is, posting scathing reviews on Amazon, and supporting just about any other group that works to fight this crap.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I think Pearl's methods are sickening, and the fact that they seem to work is frightening, not persuasive.
How do you define "work"?
I am sure it is great to create terrified, obedient children, but as far as creating a functional member of society without any mental issues and crippling emotional frailty, I am not seeing it.
I think we're on the same page, then.
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yeah what a GREAT way to create neurotic, mentally damaged, agoraphobic, parentally and spousally abusive adults. Super great childrearing system there. A+
/edit -
also, these types of folks are in a category of people who are zealotically against the power of the state to investigate households and take children into custody. hmm! i wonder why!
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Yeah, I think these folks need to read some Alice Miller. I've been arguing with some folks on Amazon about this book and it is NOT good for my stomach or jaw.
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Reading something won't change their minds. The only thing they need is to be refuted pointedly by people who figured out the radical concept of how to raise a child without resorting to crude abuse modeled around contingent stimulation.
Then, they need to be ignored.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Yeah, I think these folks need to read some Alice Miller. I've been arguing with some folks on Amazon about this book and it is NOT good for my stomach or jaw.
Jaw?
I've got this image of you being so incensed that you're chewing your monitor.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Yeah, I think these folks need to read some Alice Miller. I've been arguing with some folks on Amazon about this book and it is NOT good for my stomach or jaw.
Jaw?
I've got this image of you being so incensed that you're chewing your monitor.
She could be grinding her teeth with stress.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Yeah, I think these folks need to read some Alice Miller. I've been arguing with some folks on Amazon about this book and it is NOT good for my stomach or jaw.
Jaw?
I've got this image of you being so incensed that you're chewing your monitor.
She could be grinding her teeth with stress.
Heh. I am grinding my teeth. All the time. It's causing me severe headaches and jaw pain. I've got to do something about it and a guard will cost me $350!!!!
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I know... which is why I don't read No Greater Joy anymore, but I really wish folks would not use these on kids Or wild animals even.
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You could try to avoid stressing yourself out about the habits of total strangers.
It's hard to do that when it involves kids though. - teeth grinding smilie They are so vulnerable. Folks doing stuff like that breaks my heart. I'd like them to stop. It can have a bad effect on a child for their whole life.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: ... I've got to do something about it and a guard will cost me $350!!!!
At one point, I would have suggested working out your frustrations on a wiki dedicated to giving advice as a mother. But that doesn't appear to be an option anymore.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: ... I've got to do something about it and a guard will cost me $350!!!!
At one point, I would have suggested working out your frustrations on a wiki dedicated to giving advice as a mother. But that doesn't appear to be an option anymore.
Well, hopefully one day I'll be a parent... SOON. As I really want to be. But mainly I'm going to write to some various news outlets and I'm putting my head together with folks at GCM. (Where I am Synesthesia also)
No, it probably doesn't help, in fact folks keep telling me to stop stressing myself out as it just makes my stomach and jaw pain work and I'm trying to stop but this sort of thing makes me so angry, especially after reading That Mean Old Yesterday by Stacey Patton. Which is a brilliant book. She got treated much worse than I did. I mostly keep worrying about passing this sort of stuff down as when i lived with my mother she often employed a belt. Which made me scared of her. No way I'd want any child of mine being that scared of me, or any other child for that matter.
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quote:what a GREAT way to create neurotic, mentally damaged, agoraphobic, parentally and spousally abusive adults.
I can dig the idea that kids raised this way will have a tendency to raise their children the same way; but I'm not sure about neurotic, agoraphobic, or parentally abusive.
Is there evidence that shows that children raised under the Pearl's system of discipline grow up to be agoraphobic et al.?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: ... I've got to do something about it and a guard will cost me $350!!!!
At one point, I would have suggested working out your frustrations on a wiki dedicated to giving advice as a mother. But that doesn't appear to be an option anymore.
hey, it's why I save threads.
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quote:what a GREAT way to create neurotic, mentally damaged, agoraphobic, parentally and spousally abusive adults.
I can dig the idea that kids raised this way will have a tendency to raise their children the same way; but I'm not sure about neurotic, agoraphobic, or parentally abusive.
Is there evidence that shows that children raised under the Pearl's system of discipline grow up to be agoraphobic et al.?
Well... In the past folks have raised children in a harsh manner. Alice Miller talks about how this can affect children. I don't really think it's a healthy way to raise children AT ALL. Or dogs, or horses.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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You could try to avoid stressing yourself out about the habits of total strangers.
Maybe we could get the pro-life activists to adopt this philosophy as well? It is difficult to ignore people harming children. I imagine that can be even more true when the children are undeniably children.
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quote:Well, hopefully one day I'll be a parent... SOON.
Syne, to be frank, I hope you aren't a parent any time soon.
That is kind of harsh... Why? I know I'm not in the financial position to be a parent now, being that I only have temporary jobs and I need a bit more structure, but still!
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1) You're single and have no support network of your own. 2) You're financially unable to support a child. 3) You are very emotionally immature. 4) You are desperately looking for a child to, in essence, validate your existence. This is, in my opinion, a bad reason to raise a child.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: 1) You're single and have no support network of your own. 2) You're financially unable to support a child. 3) You are very emotionally immature. 4) You are desperately looking for a child to, in essence, validate your existence. This is, in my opinion, a bad reason to raise a child.
OK. I admit 1, and 2 are valid reasons. I think I am immature in some ways, but mature in others, but 4, now how do you know that is the case? Especially if you are only seeing my words online, and not actually residing in my head? I decided I wanted to have and adopt children back when I was about 26. I never thought I'd want to have kids, but now there's that strong biological pull to have them. The thing is, I don't want to raise my future children the way I was raised. So I learned about attachment, about other ways to raise children besides smacking and hitting. It's a start. It's a lot farther than some folks have gone. I'm not going to go out and get pregnant tomorrow. I have a lot of maturing and stabilizing, self searching and the like to do. Also it would help to have a nice partner. Especially a male one who agrees with me when it comes to discipline and will not hit any of my kids for any reason at all, who will want to be an attachment parent like I do, but that could take a while. I'm in no rush. There's still quite a few things I'd like to do, like publish, get a stable sort of job, have more money and one day have the maturity to adopt special needs children and have biological ones, but not, as you said, to validate my existence, but because I'd really like to raise children, teach and guide them. I'm not in the slightest bit perfect, and I never will be, but I will work hard to be a good parent. When I am ready.
Also, I admit I'm torn between liking being single and childless, and looking forward to having my life changed by having a child. I feel like I am ahead of my own parents a bit at least because I really want to have a child or two and to do what it takes to be mature enough and ready to raise that kid. I've done pretty well for myself over the last few years. Living on my own. Working hard when I had a job. yes, I am delayed on some levels, but not so much on others. I'm preparing for the future. It's painful to me to want a child and to know that people who have children hurt them in the name of love. It doesn't make sense. I know what it's like to have someone love and care about you so much, but they still hurt you anyway. It's so confusing. Children are one of the final frontiers when it comes to making the world a better place.
posted
I found a review looking at corporal punishment. There are plenty of articles about physical abuse/maltreatment but I guess the closest to Pearl's behaviors are corporal punishment as management of children.
quote:Ten of the 11 meta-analyses indicate parental corporal punishment is associate with the following undesirable behaviors and experiences: decreased moral internalization, increased child aggression, increased child delinquent and antisocial behavior, decreased quality of relationship between parent and child, decreased child mental health, increased risk of being a victim of physical abuse, increased adult aggression, increased adult criminal and antisocial behavior, decreased adult mental health, and increased risk of abusing own child or spouse. Corporal punishment was associated with only one desirable behavior, namely, increased immediate compliance (whether immediate compliance constitutes a meaningful desirable behavior is qualified below).
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Syn, #3 and #4 are blatantly obvious to me as well.
Still kind of harsh, because how do you guys know 4 is the case? So many folks have kids without even thinking about it and what it entails. I got to admit I'm trying to be ahead of the game a bit by trying to understand what it means to transition into a parent. I could be romanticizing it a bit, but I think about my own childhood and what I do not want for my kids when I have them... And one thing that bothers me, especially when talking to my mother is this attitude that children are "bad" and somehow you must control them from the beginning. I don't even understand where that attitude came from and why it's alive today.
Being too harsh towards children can cause delays. Crying it out can lead to large amounts of cortisol in the brain. I don't know where all of this stuff comes from, but it seems a lot worse than my imperfections. Which i am slowly working on.
I don't really think I'm immature. I have the tendency to get all flappy over things like butterflies and moths, but that doesn't mean immaturity. It means being myself. I've done my own thing mostly. No drugs, no alcohol, no irresponsible sex. I don't know. I'm doing kind of well. I'm not totally where I want to be, but that takes a lot of hard work and time.
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