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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » How did people get so harsh towards children? (Page 0)

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Author Topic: How did people get so harsh towards children?
Papa Janitor
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MightyCow, malanthrop's posts in this thread, while interpretable as offensive, do not of themselves violate the rules of the forum. Your posts do, and clearly. Moreso, you're completely aware that they do, and defiantly post them anyway. As I've said elsewhere quite recently, I find this to be more problematic than someone having disagreeable opinions. Please refrain from the personal attacks.
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Orincoro
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I find it problematic that you find it *more* problematic. Considering especially that the second behavior follows from the first, and not t'other way 'round. You've got the guy rubbing filth all over the place, intentionally, and because it doesn't technically violate the rules, it's cool? You'll do nothing about it? Yeah, can't say I like that plan too much.
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MightyCow
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I'm sad that there seems to be a permissiveness to condone homophobic behavior here, in what I find to be an otherwise excellent discussion board full of ethical, compassionate, intelligent people.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Considering especially that the second behavior follows from the first, and not t'other way 'round.
"Correlation does not imply causality."

It's sort of like terrorism, actually, and how to respond to it. Do we say that since some people blew up some airplanes, we have a drastic pruning of civil liberties, or would that be objectionable?

Do we say that because malanthrop is an noxious troll, it's perfectly acceptable to be noxious back? And anyway, he didn't say it was cool, and what do you want him to do about the behavior he just described? It is within the rules. Do you want the moderator to go beyond the forum rules? Exactly how much policy do you think Papa Janitor sets around here?

quote:
I'm sad that there seems to be a permissiveness to condone homophobic behavior here, in what I find to be an otherwise excellent discussion board full of ethical, compassionate, intelligent people.
It seems to me much more likely the 'permissiveness' you note is actually a willingness to leave malanthrop alone to be noxious. Heaven knows I'm far from the best at it, but at least I don't blame my failure on that level on the moderators for not endorsing my mistake.
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Scott R
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You could have chosen to respond intelligently, Mighty Cow. Instead, you decided to call malanthrop names.

You want...what, approbation for this behavior?

Like it or not, malanthrop's opinion was couched in civil terms. You can groan and moan and whine about how he's putting a smiling mask over the face of PURE EVIL, and you're just straight shooting; but you know what? Tom just proved that you can make the same point in a reasoned, intelligent way, without name calling, without cursing, without insulting anyone.

quote:
You've got the guy rubbing filth all over the place, intentionally, and because it doesn't technically violate the rules, it's cool? You'll do nothing about it? Yeah, can't say I like that plan too much.
You've benefited from this particular quirk of our moderators. Live and let live, says I.
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Rakeesh
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Hear, hear to all points. Complaining about the fire to the firefighters by spraying a flamethrower at the affected area seems to me to be a curious method of criticism.
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MightyCow
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Nice defending the homophobic troll.

I don't give a rip if you like what I said, this isn't about me trying to get more love.

I just think it's pretty pathetic how many people kind of don't mind that Mal is directly comparing gays to animals and pedophiles, but they get up in arms if I say asshole.

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MattP
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MC, I agree that Mal's sentiments are orders of magnitude more offensive than your insults, but the rules of the forum, for better or worse, are such that the former is permitted and the latter is not.

*shrug*

I didn't make the rules but I'm not going to flaunt them just because I'm pissed off.

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Orincoro
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Rakeesh:
quote:
Do you want the moderator to go beyond the forum rules? Exactly how much policy do you think Papa Janitor sets around here?
Yes. And there have been plenty of times you have wanted him to be able to do that as well, I imagine. That the Cards keep his authority in a mason jar under the sink is unfortunate. It makes him an ineffective moderator- coming from someone who could use effective moderation occasionally.
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Samprimary
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I've already given my two cents on the issue but this acts as a pretty good micro-example of ONE of the issues that comes up when the block terms of service is used as your forum's 'rules' instead of what it is intended for (a cursory legal precaution).
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Scott R
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quote:
Nice defending the homophobic troll.

No one's defended him or his comments.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Nice defending the homophobic troll.
Actually, I at least was defending Papa Janitor against bogus accusations.

quote:
I don't give a rip if you like what I said, this isn't about me trying to get more love.
Yeah, this is about you acting like you're actually defending the entire community at large when actually what happened was that malanthrop pissed you off, and you responded in violation of the rules, got called on it, and got pissier about it. Your problem is that you seem to think that people ignoring malanthrop serves as 'condoning' his behavior. That's not the way it works in an online setting. Here, the most effective way of dealing with him is what thankfully most posters do, and you're criticizing them for: ignore him.

quote:
I just think it's pretty pathetic how many people kind of don't mind that Mal is directly comparing gays to animals and pedophiles, but they get up in arms if I say asshole.
Well, speaking strictly for myself, the reason you were wrong isn't because you were mean to mal. He's earned it many times over, after all. It's where you take that anger out on Papa Janitor while acting holier-than-thou, incidentally behaving the same way towards the community at large. You're not the neighborhood watchman. You're not Hatrack's defender. And you're definitely not Hatrack conscience or whistleblower.

But even if you were, that still wouldn't change the fact that Papa Janitor does not, unless I'm mistaken, set moderation policy around here. So what you're doing there is busting on the guy who's just doing his job to the extent possible, a job that's needed, by the way. And then your style of complaint makes his job even more needed, but don't by any means let that help you self-moderate your behavior. Because then, good heavens! A dumbass on the Internet might be able to be wrong about something without being called an asshole!

And that just cannot stand. Not while MightyCow's on the case!

----

Orincoro,

quote:
Yes. And there have been plenty of times you have wanted him to be able to do that as well, I imagine. That the Cards keep his authority in a mason jar under the sink is unfortunate. It makes him an ineffective moderator- coming from someone who could use effective moderation occasionally.
So given this problem, how exactly is criticizing the guy simply doing his imperfect job supposed to help the situation besides making you feel better? Furthermore, if you need effective moderation as you say, complaining that lapses are actually the fault of the imperfect moderators...well, it's not a very sympathetic or persuasive statement.
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Orincoro
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I don't intend to place blame for what I do on anyone else. I simply point out that I myself would benefit from better moderation at times. Am I not allowed to think that? I know you think it, so am I not allowed to agree? It wasn't the thrust of my argument anyway, so whatever. As usual you have to be the interpreter of everything I say, as uncharitable as you are. Now go and complain about it on Sake where your posse can cackle along.
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Jake
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We've actually been thinking about changing the name of sake to "Rakeesh's Posse", just to try to be more accurate.
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Scott R
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I've noticed that the troupe is more likely to act up when I haven't been spending quality time with them.

We'd been having problems with our next-to-oldest daughter; defiance, rudeness, screaming, even bullying. Standard punishment is a time-out, but it wasn't really working so well. This particular child doesn't respond to corporal punishment at all, either...having tried that course earlier in her life, and had it fail, we were at a loss of what exactly to do.

It turns out that thirty minutes at the YMCA with me paying close and positive attention to her did wonders. Like...day and night wonders, that have lasted far beyond the initial time investment. It was eye-opening to see how quickly and drastically her attitude improved.

Sometimes, the hunger for attention is more than just a discipline issue. She was needing attention, and positive reinforcement; looking back on that period of our lives, I can see that I had not been giving her much to go on. No amount of discipline, corporal or otherwise could have effectively resolved the problem, IMO. Because what she needed wasn't discipline, patience, or education of any sort-- she was starving for someone to take time with her.

I think many behavioral problems can be resolved by consistent application of casual one-on-one time between parent and child.

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Rakeesh
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Orincoro,

quote:
I don't intend to place blame for what I do on anyone else.
Sure you do. Your complaints imply you want Hatrack to be a better place. You appear to think that with better moderation, it would be a better place. You think you, personally, would sometimes benefit from better moderation thus making Hatrack a better place. Therefore the fact that Hatrack is not a better place than it is is because you are not moderated more effectively. And the blame for this is on, well, the moderators. So whether or not you intend to blame anyone else for what you do, that is in fact what you are clearly doing.

quote:
It wasn't the thrust of my argument anyway, so whatever. As usual you have to be the interpreter of everything I say, as uncharitable as you are. Now go and complain about it on Sake where your posse can cackle along.
It was what personalized your argument, though. It was why you, specifically were making the argument-why it mattered to you. And anyway, I replied to more than just your 'part of the reason I screw up sometimes is Papa Janitor' argument.

But 'interpreting'? Well, I suppose. A pretty damn good interpretation, though, however unpleasant you find it. Or else point out the link in the chain that isn't sound.

Anyway, as to Sakeriver, that's part of your problem. See, I can count the number of times I've seen you mentioned on Sakeriver in the past month on two hands at most. Probably one hand. And at least one of those times - this one - was me, complaining about your unjust criticism of Papa Janitor for failing to control your behavior...and I get the distinct impression that some folks are irritated by my mentioning it over there at all.

My point is, we're not over there talking about you and cutting on you when you're not looking. Hell, I'm not even a common poster over there these days. But if I was, they'd be my 'crew', not my posse.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I think many behavioral problems can be resolved by consistent application of casual one-on-one time between parent and child.
I agree. Sometimes because, like in the case you're describing, it's what was needed in the first place. But even when it's not, it's still a good idea, especially if there is difficulty-that time might yield an effective response, after all.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
I've noticed that the troupe is more likely to act up when I haven't been spending quality time with them.

We'd been having problems with our next-to-oldest daughter; defiance, rudeness, screaming, even bullying. Standard punishment is a time-out, but it wasn't really working so well. This particular child doesn't respond to corporal punishment at all, either...having tried that course earlier in her life, and had it fail, we were at a loss of what exactly to do.

It turns out that thirty minutes at the YMCA with me paying close and positive attention to her did wonders. Like...day and night wonders, that have lasted far beyond the initial time investment. It was eye-opening to see how quickly and drastically her attitude improved.

Sometimes, the hunger for attention is more than just a discipline issue. She was needing attention, and positive reinforcement; looking back on that period of our lives, I can see that I had not been giving her much to go on. No amount of discipline, corporal or otherwise could have effectively resolved the problem, IMO. Because what she needed wasn't discipline, patience, or education of any sort-- she was starving for someone to take time with her.

I think many behavioral problems can be resolved by consistent application of casual one-on-one time between parent and child.

Indeed, that's why some parents do time ins instead of time outs. Especially with children adopted at older ages who require a lot of attention and affection and over-disciplining could hurt the fragile bond between new parent and child.

Also, sometimes it's stuff like food allergies and the like, which I wasn't totally aware of.

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Scott R
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quote:
that's why some parents do time ins instead of time outs.
Can you explain how time-ins work?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
I think many behavioral problems can be resolved by consistent application of casual one-on-one time between parent and child.
I agree. Sometimes because, like in the case you're describing, it's what was needed in the first place. But even when it's not, it's still a good idea, especially if there is difficulty-that time might yield an effective response, after all.
Absolutely agree with both of you.
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Jim-Me
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yep... one on one time is huge.

It can also be very hard to come by. The good news is that even a small amount of it(like just a couple of minutes focused on one kid, even while everyone else is around) can pay huge dividends.

Kids need to be seen and heard.

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dabbler
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Supernanny has been interesting to watch. What do you all think of it? It sounds like solid teaching. I'm pessimistic that most of the parents continue her suggestions after the 1 week crash-course but it's still worth it.
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kmbboots
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JIm-Me, that you manage that at all is darned impressive. Good job! [Wink]
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Scott R
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It's produced; I have a hard time believing the specifics of the show.

But she does give some good advice.

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Belle
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I totally agree with one-on-one time. It's especially hard for me and my husband with our twins, my son was always the one we struggled with - he is an introvert, doesn't make friends easily and really had trouble in school.

Once my husband started cub scouts with him things have really changed. I credit scouts with some of it, but I think the major thing is that as the den leader, my husband is intimately involved and my son knows that every Monday when there are den meetings, he will get his Dad with him at something his sisters cannot be part of. Also, they go on camp outs and programs and it's a chance for him to share something with his father that the girls do not.

Likewise, my husband makes a point of going to practices with our girls for their sports and playing catch with softball or soccer in the yard...it matters.

It's sometimes easier for me, as mom - I usually chaffeur to various activities and have chances to talk to the kids alone in the car...even that makes a difference. I know for my son, though - having Dad devoted to him and him alone during scouting has made a huge difference for him in all areas of his life. He is more confident, has more friends, is more physically active - and I credit he and my husband being in scouts with a lot of it.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by dabbler:
Supernanny has been interesting to watch. What do you all think of it? It sounds like solid teaching. I'm pessimistic that most of the parents continue her suggestions after the 1 week crash-course but it's still worth it.

Supernanny is great for a few reasons, the primary one being where the cameras essentially catch the hangups in parenting strategies, mental coping mechanisms, etc. You see parents going "I do <X> because I just don't know what to do!" or "I do <X> because THIS child definitely NEEDS it" or "My dad/mom did <X> and I turned out just fine!" but it's really very obvious that they are substituting maladaptive strategies which run parallel to but are not handling what was actually the problem in the first place.

Then the supernanny for the day goes through the entertaining process of tut-tutting and lecturing openly for the sake of making it good entertainment. Prods the parents into doing things right, etc. Parents will, obviously, receive supplemental education off camera. Gets them to quit spanking, first of all. Points out where their parenting methods are maladaptive and leave the parents cornered by their own methodology. Demonstrates how to change the system. Prods them through changing the system. Prods them to accept and understand the method rather than just following the motions: the why of how it works instead of just 'do this.'

The informative content is limited because the show is screened into a limited subset of parenting profiles: households that are very obviously doing it wrong, have a clear solution that relates to how dysfunctional the parental methods are (permissive mom who sets no real boundaries, authoritarian mom who confuses the child with disproportionate punishment, couple with a member who de-trains what the other member works towards in a work-stressed environment, etc) and the parents are both amenable/malleable to change and are desperate enough to go on television about it.

It's not very representative of most parents and it suffers from monoculture, but even when a parent isn't a dope like the ones on TV, they can just as easily have strategies as maladaptive while still priding themselves on being a good parent. very few people can't benefit greatly from learning the science and strategy we know thanks to pediatric and childrearing expertise that is based off of sound methodology. most don't see any need.

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Jim-Me
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As a teacher, I find my students benefit greatly from a little one on one time as well. I think I need to start working on a way to make sure they get more of that.
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Synesthesia
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Time in is spending time with the child in your pressense instead of sending them away to sit for several minutes based on age.
Supernanny and Nanny 911 are interesting, but they are not very attachment parent friendly. They are totally obsessed with independence a bit too much I think, totally against safe co-sleeping.
Also, I saw a sad episode of Nanny 911 where they let this grieving child that was worried about her father leaving for the war just cry alone for hours.
Poor little cub. She needed a hug or at least to be rocked or something.

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
He gets a swat and locked out of the house for the day.
Corporal punishment on dogs is actually a poor method for disciplining dogs, malanthrop. I'm looking forward to an honest and objective discussion on this topic!
Smearing their nose in the pile on the carpet, making sure their feces is driven into their nostrils and then kicking them out...never fails. They never do it again.

THIS is worse than using an occasion swat on the nose to get their attention. It has been linked to many problems training dogs, and is one of the worse things you can do to a puppy being potty trained. It teaches them to be ashamed if they have an accident, and often leads to them going in hidden places like behind furniture or in potted plans.

Not everyone thinks that an occasional tap on the nose is ineffective for training, but almost every single person who has written any sort of training book for dogs agrees that rubbing a dogs nose in it's own urine/feces is not effective and a horrible training method.


Just so you know.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
He gets a swat and locked out of the house for the day.
Corporal punishment on dogs is actually a poor method for disciplining dogs, malanthrop. I'm looking forward to an honest and objective discussion on this topic!
Smearing their nose in the pile on the carpet, making sure their feces is driven into their nostrils and then kicking them out...never fails. They never do it again.

THIS is worse than using an occasion swat on the nose to get their attention. It has been linked to many problems training dogs, and is one of the worse things you can do to a puppy being potty trained. It teaches them to be ashamed if they have an accident, and often leads to them going in hidden places like behind furniture or in potted plans.

Not everyone thinks that an occasional tap on the nose is ineffective for training, but almost every single person who has written any sort of training book for dogs agrees that rubbing a dogs nose in it's own urine/feces is not effective and a horrible training method.


Just so you know.

It also doesn't seem very nice.
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Scott R
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quote:
Time in is spending time with the child in your pressense instead of sending them away to sit for several minutes based on age.
If a child really hungers for attention, then giving it in response to misbehavior is maybe not the best idea. Instead of learning that the parent views the relationship as inherently valuable, and that one-on-one time is the natural outgrowth of parental affection, wouldn't the child here learn that she only gets one-on-one time when she's obnoxious?

In the example I gave, spending time with my daughter wasn't in response to her misbehavior. It was an event that kind of just happened, that made me realize something deeper about parenting in general.

I don't know a lot about attachment parenting; I admit to being a little biased against it due to some interactions with...um... really zealous advocates of it. (There's nothing like being accused of being a negligent parent because you let your two year old sleep in their own bed)

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Synesthesia
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Yeah, there's zealous everyone. AP is supposed to be what's best for each person, especially for the child, but theres fascists, for lack of a better word for everything...

Time in is more like keeping the child with you while you do various things around the house, but they said it can be used mostly for kids who kind of have been passed from one home to the next so they really need the attention. Time outs would feel too much like shunning to them. I'll look up more information about that when I get home. I've done research on older child adoption to know I'm not ready for it. It's quite involved.

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Kwea
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Syn, being nice isn't a concern. Sometimes you AHVE to be firm when teaching a dog, and that is all there is to it. However, 3 min later the dog is playing tug a war with you like nothing is wrong. [Wink]


My point was that not only is it gross, it's highly ineffective, and universally considered the wrong thing to do despite generations of people doing it.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
If a child really hungers for attention, then giving it in response to misbehavior is maybe not the best idea. Instead of learning that the parent views the relationship as inherently valuable, and that one-on-one time is the natural outgrowth of parental affection, wouldn't the child here learn that she only gets one-on-one time when she's obnoxious?

I was a school librarian for a while in an inner-city parochial school. Very poor school with very poor students. We didn't even have a full time principle so, when there were discipline problems, the kids got sent to me. One first- grader named Lazarus, was being naughty more and more often. I pointed out that he didn't have to be naughty to come to the library. That he was welcome anytime he had free time and his teacher said it was okay. That I liked to see him. And he put his head down on the desk and cried. "Welcome" and "I like to see you" were not something he was accustomed to hearing.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Orincoro,

quote:
I don't intend to place blame for what I do on anyone else.
Sure you do.
Ah, well, there you have it. You know more about me than I do. Why ever say anything else to me then? Why should I go on reading? Obviously I'm an empty shell that just needs to be told what it wants, and what it intends. Thank you, that will be all.
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dkw
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Rakeesh and Orincoro: Take it to another thread or the people who want to talk about the topic are going to start debating whether to rub your nose in the mess you're making before throwing you outside, spanking you both, or taking your computer time away.

"He started it" isn't an excuse that any parent here is going to accept, btw. I'm pretty sure we all agree on that one.

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Rakeesh
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I think I'll continue to to both, dkw. Thanks, though.

---

Orincoro,

quote:
Ah, well, there you have it. You know more about me than I do. Why ever say anything else to me then? Why should I go on reading? Obviously I'm an empty shell that just needs to be told what it wants, and what it intends. Thank you, that will be all.
Sounded like blame to me, and I daresay to most others who read it. And it'd sound like blame to you if anyone else said it. If you think there's a problem with how you behave, fix it yourself. Don't go complaining Papa Moose doesn't do a better job of it for you. Especially if he doesn't actually have the power to fix it for you!

---------

Synesthesia,

quote:
It also doesn't seem very nice.
Isn't there a line in Wicked that goes something like, "Good doesn't always mean nice." Put another way, it's not nice to make a child swallow medicine that tastes just plain awful. Sometimes it's what's called for, though.

--------

kmbboots,

quote:
That he was welcome anytime he had free time and his teacher said it was okay. That I liked to see him. And he put his head down on the desk and cried. "Welcome" and "I like to see you" were not something he was accustomed to hearing.
I think a lot of parenting problems, and perhaps this is a guy thing in our culture, come from the idea that you can't say 'corny' things like that. When the truth is, sometimes 'corny' or 'sappy' (I don't think what you're describing is, but some would) don't just work, they work best.
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MightyCow
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Rakeesh: I love the irony of you writing multiple paragraphs extolling the virtues of ignoring people you have a problem with. You're no peach, my friend.

And I'm not busting on PJ. I know it's not his call on what is and isn't against the rules, and I think he does a fine job.

I'm busting on the closet homophobes here who just quietly ignore slander against gays, because they don't think it's really all that far off the mark, even if they aren't willing to say it themselves.

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Rakeesh
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No, what I was extolling was not getting on PJ's case when one chooses to refrain from that most effective of techniques, ignoring. But feel free to continue rephrasing the discussion in whichever way makes you feel best.

quote:
I'm sad that there seems to be a permissiveness to condone homophobic behavior here, in what I find to be an otherwise excellent discussion board full of ethical, compassionate, intelligent people.
This was, after all, clearly busting on PJ-and the entire community, actually, but since PJ is the front of what is condoned and what isn't...well, you get the picture.

quote:
I'm busting on the closet homophobes here who just quietly ignore slander against gays, because they don't think it's really all that far off the mark, even if they aren't willing to say it themselves.
It's precisely that sort of malicious mischaracterization that makes many people unwilling to engage with folks like malanthrop and, in this discussion at least, you.
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Scott R
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quote:
Isn't there a line in Wicked that goes something like, "Good doesn't always mean nice." Put another way, it's not nice to make a child swallow medicine that tastes just plain awful. Sometimes it's what's called for, though.
It's in Into the Woods, spoken by Little Red Riding Hood, upon getting out of the wolf's stomach.

And the exact line is, "Nice is different than good."

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Scott R
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quote:
I'm busting on the closet homophobes here who just quietly ignore slander against gays, because they don't think it's really all that far off the mark, even if they aren't willing to say it themselves.
I don't know who you're talking about; that's mostly because I don't know many people in real life who equate homosexuality with pedophilia; I also am incapable of mind-reading.

I'm a freak, I know.

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dabbler
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Are you considering me a homophobe for not jumping against malanthrop and instead seeing if his paragraph holds for heterosexuals, and for agreeing that characteristics have consequences?
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Scott R
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quote:
I think a lot of parenting problems, and perhaps this is a guy thing in our culture, come from the idea that you can't say 'corny' things like that.
I hate the guy thing that demands that men are deficient parents.

I hate MORE that in terms of today's general society, men are deficient parents. Someone mentioned Supernanny up above; in almost all the shows I've seen, the man is the one at whom the criticism is most sharply directed (and admittedly, who needs it the most).

Not just on TV, but in real life, I see men who are not living up to their potential as fathers. I think it absolutely tragic that as women have increased their role in the workplace, men have not (in general) increased their role in child-rearing.

Every year, the men from our church get together with their sons and go camping to celebrate the restoration of the priesthood. It is meant (I think) as an occasion to celebrate male familial responsibility; to honor father and sons; and to remind us that the Father of all cares for us and gave us specific male-centered responsibilities for nurturing, providing, and teaching others. Last year, the boys and I camped next to the families of two of my good friends. At the time, my boys were 8 and 3; we got our tent set up, and a campfire started. It was early afternoon when we finished setting up our camp and in the meantime, I listened to how other men related to their sons in the same task.

I was surprised to hear a lot of anger and frustration and impatience. My two friends were NOT happy with their sons' incapability at setting up tents, or anything really. It didn't nearly border on abuse-- not even close. But it was disdainful. It was uncomfortable to listen to, because these were two really intelligent guys (one of whom is getting a master's degree in psychology), who I really respected.

Compare that to my other friend, who arrived after dark, and who set up his tent with his two young children-- a 4 year old girl, and a newly adopted son from China (who didn't speak English). He was patient; he was moderate. It was pleasant to listen to him relate to his kids; you could feel the care he had for them, even though what they were doing was hardly enjoyable or easy.

Of the three fathers I observed that night, only one really represented the values that I think that celebration should exemplify. That experience has since become a touchstone for me-- when things get hectic and screwy, am I living up to the example set by that dad?

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I think it absolutely tragic that as women have increased their role in the workplace, men have not (in general) increased their role in child-rearing.
Well put. It's interesting how fundamentally that gets overlooked, I think.

quote:

I was surprised to hear a lot of anger and frustration and impatience. My two friends were NOT happy with their sons' incapability at setting up tents, or anything really. It didn't nearly border on abuse-- not even close. But it was disdainful. It was uncomfortable to listen to, because these were two really intelligent guys (one of whom is getting a master's degree in psychology), who I really respected.

Yeah, that disdain does cut. And it sticks, too. From my own childhood, habitual contempt for my mediocre ability at math homework is still remembered now, nearly 20 years later. And it was definitely remembered during elementary and junior high school.

I guess the truth is, lots of parents forget that even when things suck, they're still 'on'. That's human, I s'pose.

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Scott R
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Hey, Rakeesh:

You're a mook.

[Smile]

Old habits die hard.

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Synesthesia
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I totally would like a man who is kind and patient when it comes to children. I don't feel like mine liked to be around me a lot
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Kwea
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I am not the most patient person in the world. Not even close. I get angry and frustrated at MYSELF a lot, so I worry about how I will deal with being a father one day. There is no doubt that I will love them, and that they will know it, but I worry that I will not even realize how sarcastic I am being to them, or that I will lose patience with them.

There is no doubt that they will know I love them, and that I will tell that that often, but parenting is so much more than that. Still, it is a good place to start. [Big Grin]

It's funny that someone like me, who has always wanted to be a father, turned 40 without children this year, yet many of my friends who never wanted children have 3-4 of them by now, and have no plans to ever have more.

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The Ether of Space
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What about infantilizing teenagers? How about criminalizing teenage sexuality?

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2009/04/assault-of-law-on-teenages-today.html

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Scott R
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I read through the article; let me note that the life expectancy at the time of Lafayette was generally MUCH shorter than it is today (around 35). People grew up faster because they just didn't have that long to live. Becoming sexually active shortly after sexual maturation made complete sense-- you only had about 20-30 years left to live.

I think the changes that prompted the growth of a intermediate stage between child and adult are good changes. They allow for a better education (another thing most people didn't have back in the late 1700s); they allow a stronger social support network for individuals. As the workforce continues to evolve away from manufacturing to support, specialized knowledge and thus more education will become more and more necessary.

I imagine our culture will adapt. It's a good thing; the article you posted misses a huge chunk of the story.

As far as criminalizing teens' backseat adventures: aside from the Jenna 6, I'm not really aware of how big an injustice this is. Is there a consistent and widespread practice of putting teen lovers on sex offender lists for what they do in Daddy's Mercedes?

Do you have statistics you can bring?

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Week-Dead Possum
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What about people coming on this forum and pretending not to be the authors of the "relevant links" that they provide??

quote:
What about infantilizing teenagers? How about criminalizing teenage sexuality?

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2009/04/assault-of-law-on-teenages-today.html

I believe this is grounds for immediate defenestration.

Also, DOWN WITH BELGIUM.

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