posted
The "rebel" flag as it has also been known seems to have a differant meaning to most everyone who see's it, I am curious as to the feelings of hatrackers about this physical piece of American history and ask anyone with a definitive opinion to share what they know and why they hold that belief, but even if you are unbiased please contribute what you do know and any other opinions on the matter.
I am with-holding my stance at the moment to hopefully allow the discussion to develop naturally instead of instilling a X vs. Y argument from the first response.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Being black, it makes me feel a bit uneasy. As the South and its history of slavery is a sore subject with me.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can understand why people have issues with it. I'm not convinced that that's a sufficient reason to get rid of it entirely, but I'm also not convinced that there is sufficient reason to keep it around.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
For me, unless used in a historical or documentary context, its use in a straight-forward manner indicates to me that I should probably stay far away from the user in question.
Which is a sort of win-win for both of us really.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Whatever it stood for at one time, it now stands for oppression, slavery, ignorance, poverty and racism in the mind of the larger culture.
It is the flag of a traitorous, defeated nation.
I say that as a Southerner who is quite happy in the South. If the region needs some sort of symbol to signify its specialness, I'd prefer it be a picture of Paula Dean's face. Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Standing for oppression, slavery, ignorance, etc, is all fine and good.
But the flag of a traitorous nation?
I'd say being traitorous in this case is only true because they lost.
After all... if the U.S. had lost, we'd all be traitors too. The only reason we aren't is because we won the Revolutionary War.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
My Dad tells a story of when he was in college and a team from WVU came up to Wisconsin to play football, waving the confederate flag and giving "rebel yells". As my father tells it, they were extremely put out and disbelieving when informed that West Virginia was not part of the Confederacy.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never understood the reason some people had that flag on their cars and hats. Maybe there is a good reason they carry the symbol around, but the first thing that comes to mind when I see someone with it is "That person is racist."
I don't know if that is true or not, maybe it means something different than it did a hundred and forty years ago.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The states that would comprise the confederacy seceded after slavery had been deemed illegal in the newly acquired southwestern states from the Mexican-American war. To secede from America is to take control of American land and American citizens, as the leaders of the secession were (formerly) American this would constitute a betrayal.
I do not believe that anyone here would refute that every revolution was at one point terrorism. But my point is yes, it is the flag of a people who were traitorous to the United States of America.
Edit
I would point out that slavery had been outlawed in newly acquired states only, with no legal effect on laws and agricultre of pre-existing states, the to-be confederates seceded when the majority voted against thier personal interests not when they're way of life had been attacked.
I'm not sure that, legally speaking, there was a problem with secession. Part of the reason the war was fought was to determine that question-- not by legal arguments or reasoning, but by force of arms.
I don't think that everyone who flies the confederate flag is racist. It IS an enormous symbol of regional and cultural pride.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have sympathy for the south in the sense that I am supportive of the idea that regions should be allowed to secede and govern themselves if the people of that region chose. I don't think governments have absolute claims to land for all eternity. If the populace that lives there wants to break away I am ok with that. Chechnya and Tibet come to mind as two modern examples of this. I obviously have no sympathy for the Souths right to enslave people though. The confederate flag represents that to too many people for me to support it being flown by government entities. It is just to hurtful and nothing is really gained.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not only not part of it, but specifically left Virginia because they refused to secede.
I have a hard time getting behind the Confederate flag. It sort of feels like someone is telling me I have to accept burning crosses on lawns too. It's a symbol of oppression and slavery. When it's displayed, my automatic reaction is to assume that the displayer is attempting to elicit feelings of the "lost cause" mentality that the South's cause was just, and that they only lost because they didn't have the firepower necessary. That's a bunch of crap, crap that the South has been quite successful in pushing since the day the war ended, but I'm on Frederick Douglass' side on this one. In response to the idea that neither side was wrong, and that reconciliation was the priority of the day, Douglass said, "I shall never forget the difference between those who fought for liberty and those who fought for slavery; between those who fought to save our Republic and those who fought to destroy it."
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree, I wouldn't call the CSA any more traitourous then the USA. Remember, at one point we were British. I guess the winner decides who is a traitor. But losing traitors tend to be punished, and Lincoln didn't exactly have the Confederate administration hanged.
But the flag? I don't think it should be banned like the swastika in Germany is. But I think putting it on state flags and buildings is extremely offensive.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
To proudly fly the Confederate flag today, whatever it might once have meant, is to say, "I am racist and collect guns, and will be aggressively unapologetic about either of those things."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Lincoln didn't exactly have the Confederate administration hanged.
Lincoln was dead, and Johnson was a southerner. If Radical Republicans had had their way, things would have gone very differently. Why do you think Black Codes were instituted so quickly after the war ended? Because the same guys who were in charge of the south before the war, and during the war, were pardoned by Johnson and sent right back to the state legislatures. That's when Congress stepped in, until 1874 anyway, to try to right some of those wrongs.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Lincoln didn't exactly have the Confederate administration hanged.
Lincoln was dead, and Johnson was a southerner. If Radical Republicans had had their way, things would have gone very differently. Why do you think Black Codes were instituted so quickly after the war ended? Because the same guys who were in charge of the south before the war, and during the war, were pardoned by Johnson and sent right back to the state legislatures. That's when Congress stepped in, until 1874 anyway, to try to right some of those wrongs.
posted
The flag stands for different things to different people. Therefore I think my reaction to it should depend on what it is intended to mean by the person displaying it. I don't think it makes any sense to get mad about racism if I know the reason the person is displaying it is southern pride rather than advocacy of racism.
The one thing it does tend to demonstrate, however, is that the person displaying it doesn't particularly care what others (or at least those who view the flag differently) think - since its inevitable that somebody will be offended by it.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:I wouldn't call the CSA any more traitourous then the USA. Remember, at one point we were British.
IIRC, there were functions in place to remediate grievances that US State Representatives had prior to the civil war.
Were there similar remediative functions accessible to the colonial governments?
I understand your point. But if the US had lost, it would have been called traiterous.
Actually the U.S. would have been considered domineering, North-biased and malevolent towards the people of the South and thier rights to work and to live peacefully after seceding from a government that had turned a blind eye to the poverty stricken farmers.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
People who don't use that symbol themselves. In this case, probably people who wouldn't display the confederate flag.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Actually the U.S. would have been considered domineering, North-biased and malevolent towards the people of the South and thier rights to work and to live peacefully after seceding from a government that had turned a blind eye to the poverty stricken farmers.
We're talking about if the US had lost in the Revolutionary War, AH.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't think it makes any sense to get mad about racism if I know the reason the person is displaying it is southern pride rather than advocacy of racism.
Heck, I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms." What's the distinction?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:The one thing it does tend to demonstrate, however, is that the person displaying it doesn't particularly care what others (or at least those who view the flag differently) think - since its inevitable that somebody will be offended by it.
I think this is what it actually means - "I don't care what you think. I won't be dictated to. I am a rebel."
Which, since it was the rebel flag, ties right in with the symbol.
A confederate flag, in my personal experience as opposed to published anecdotes I have read, has meant about the same thing that a tongue piercing, James Dean's red jacket, and a flower dress with Doc Martens have meant over the years.
----
quote:Heck, I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms." What's the distinction?
posted
Except that wearing a flower dress with Doc Martens does not also say "I am a racist who loves guns."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: ... After all... if the U.S. had lost, we'd all be traitors too. The only reason we aren't is because we won the Revolutionary War.
I'm ok with resolving this inconsistency by agreeing that both the US during the Revolutionary War AND the Confederates were traitorous Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by theresa51282: I have sympathy for the south in the sense that I am supportive of the idea that regions should be allowed to secede and govern themselves if the people of that region chose. I don't think governments have absolute claims to land for all eternity. If the populace that lives there wants to break away I am ok with that. Chechnya and Tibet come to mind as two modern examples of this. I obviously have no sympathy for the Souths right to enslave people though. The confederate flag represents that to too many people for me to support it being flown by government entities. It is just to hurtful and nothing is really gained.
Given the situation around the time of the Civil War, I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale) would have led to worse consequences. The Union would not have tolerated a nation such as the CSA to take Union resources, share the country, or expand into areas that the Union wanted.
Even during the Civil War, there were some who advocated treating it as a war of conquest instead of reunification. If the CSA was treated as a true independent nation, this war of conquest was pretty much inevitable.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Seriously: what else is it possible to have "Southern pride" about? Who would describe their sense of hometown pride as "Southern pride" who is not a racist who loves guns?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Would you still find the symbol to show independant thought and freedom if a Black-American displayed it? surely in the hands of a descendant of slavery it does not and has never meant freedom.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
People who don't use that symbol themselves. In this case, probably people who wouldn't display the confederate flag.
Sometimes actions define a symbol. The flag has a long history of negative actions attached to it, and while someone can display it and say it means something else, that doesn't erase the history.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katharina: A confederate flag, in my personal experience as opposed to published anecdotes I have read, has meant about the same thing that a tongue piercing, James Dean's red jacket, and a flower dress with Doc Martens have meant over the years.
"I am an adolescent"?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
Kate: Maybe. Not all teenagers do the above, and not all who do the above or wish to aggressively assert their independence are teenagers.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms."
I have southern pride, and am not racist, and do not love firearms.
I'm proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature. I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
I hate that it also means (and has earned, IMO) a connotation toward racism and ignorance.
That said, the first real racism I saw when I was growing up was in Wisconsin, where people had never met anyone who wasn't white. Where diversity was qualified to mean "Catholic or Lutheran." Where a casserole was considered fine dining, and oompa bands still a viable musical platform, and the most-read book in the library was that one Judy Blume book for young adults with that one scene in it...
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I meant was the Union would not have acknowledged to the international community that they considered the CSA to be a legitimate country.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
Not to derail, but honestly, I found the people I met in SC to be the least hospitable - to me anyway - I have ever encountered. And I was nicer back then and really wanted (and needed) people to be nice to me. People who didn't even know me would literally (and I mean literally) turn their backs to me if I approached them. They were nasty to me in church on Christmas Eve.
I think that people, in general, are hospitable to people who are like them.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale)
I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
They wanted the cotton, not realizing that they had better soil in Africa and other colonies. Pres. Lincoln publically refered to the war as a "police action" to prevent international aid and alliances from reaching the south. Great Britian was the only one to send supplies but could not hazard troops because to do so in response to a police action would be an invasion and a declaration of war on America, making them an enemy of American allies (i.e. France)
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
You roll your eyes, Katie, but do not answer. What else might inspire someone to fly that particular flag to exhibit "Southern pride" -- pride that is, mind you, somehow distinct from pride in anything else?
"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
People who don't use that symbol themselves. In this case, probably people who wouldn't display the confederate flag.
I don't think that people who dress themselves in potent symbols that have a weighty history of meaning something can redefine the meaning of these symbols by saying that they mean something else. You can't dress up as a Nazi and say it's all about German Pride for you.
The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
For it to mean something else, they'd need to put serious effort into reclaiming the symbol. It'd be interesting to see people campaigning for better treatment of minorities under the Confederate Flag, for example.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
Tangent: I was under the impression that they were careful not to, as in:
quote:One of the most important victories won by the United States during the Civil War was not ever fought on a battlefield. Rather, it was a series of diplomatic victories that ensured that the Confederacy would fail to achieve diplomatic recognition by even a single foreign government.
posted
I'm rolling my eyes at the flaming bigot who is posting. Some comments are too stupid and too indicative of a closed mind and determined ill will to waste time on.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale)
I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
To add to what AH said, they never officially recognized them, but smuggler ports were pretty busy in both Britain and France outfitting ships for raiding attacks on the US merchant fleet. The US Navy would often stage ships out of adjacent ports to make sure suspected southern ships being armed would never make it out of port intact. The United States could hardly declare war on England or France for their actions, so focused on destroying the proceeds rather than punishing opportunism, which was the wiser course. I have some more information around here somewhere about foreign policy during the Civil War, but for the most part, that was Seward's job. Lincoln never touched foreign policy.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature. I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
But would you say that this is "Southern pride?" In my experience, the people who say they have "Southern pride" mean "I am an unapologetic racist and gun-lover." The people who think that Southerners have made substantial contributions to music and/or hospitality generally say things like "I'm proud of Southern music."
The term "Southern pride" has been completely co-opted.
And Katie, you're Texan. So don't even pretend to be a "Southerner." Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
Not to derail, but honestly, I found the people I met in SC to be the least hospitable - to me anyway - I have ever encountered. And I was nicer back then and really wanted (and needed) people to be nice to me. People who didn't even know me would literally (and I mean literally) turn their backs to me if I approached them. They were nasty to me in church on Christmas Eve.
I think that people, in general, are hospitable to people who are like them.
To me, Southern goes along with hospitality, as long you're talking about non-Catholic Christians who are either white or non-"uppity" minorities.
I've always been treated very nicely in the South, but I've heard too many stories, especially from my Jewish friends, of Southerners being very inhospitable and I've read too many studies of the significantly higher levels of prejudice in the South, to grant Southerners unqualified hospitality as a accurate trait.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've never heard of Southern Pride referring to the sort of cultural aspects you're saying it refers to Scott. I might not state it so bluntly as Tom, but when I hear Southern Pride, my mind leans considerably more his way than yours.
Plus, "Southern hospitality" only applied to one race until a couple decades ago. Unless you count having to go around back to the kitchen to get a carry out bag a piece of "Southern hospitality."
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
