quote:Who is dating who and who is wearing what is only a big deal to the students attending the prom.
Well, yes. That's like saying who wins the game is only a big deal to those watching and playing the football game.
quote:I was voted junior prince at one of mine, my date and girlfriend wasn't the princess. How insensitive of the school to "make me" dance with someone else for the royal dance. I saw the pain in her eyes but did the one dance with the other girl.
Thank you for that completely irrelevant but self-promoting story.
quote:School proms do not ask who you are bringing, what you are going to wear or what is your sexuality.
Considering that this school had a specific policy in place for this prom, once again you're completely wrong. Will you man up and acknowledge that, or pretend it was never said?
quote: PDA might be tolerated at some schools but proms aren't for the expression of sexuality. I'm sure Hatrack has discussed the the private proms students have organized since their school's prom is nothing but fighting and hip-hop dry humping. Of course those private proms were considered racist segregation.
You're completely ignoring what I said, responding as though I never said it. How surprising! Proms are definitely, in part, expressions of sexuality. It's a function about going out on dates and dancing as couples. Why do people do those things? At least in part because of sexuality. Your point about private proms is completely irrelevant too, and it's amusing that in your open-minded Jamaican loving outlook, the bad private proms were the 'black' ones.
quote: Lesbians and gays have attended proms for a very long time. A couple high school lesbians decided to have what they thought would be a Rosa Parks moment. The only difference is, Rosa Parks was actually not allowed to sit in the front. If a black woman decided to make a scene for no reason, the bus would be pulled over and the route stopped. Rosa Parks wasn't allowed in the front and took a legitimate stand. These lesbians are no different than a black who randomly decides to stand up in the front of the bus and call the driver a racist for no reason. Him getting kicked off the bus isn't proof of the drivers racism.
Thanks again, Mr. Irrelevance. You can throw up as much smokescreen and unrelated anecdotes as you like, but people will notice when you don't participate honestly in a discussion. That's why you've got the reputation you have around here. Is your weekend over yet? Will you be going back to working a hundred hours a week, making tons of money, and respecting your Jamaican neighbors soon?
Can't happen soon enough! Anyway, I'ma go back to giving you the same courtesy you do everyone who disagrees inconveniently with you: ignore you.
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My school, 22 years ago, had a registry for people to go, including who their date was, and a dress code. Once again, mal, your opinion stated as fact doesn't actually make it a fact.
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quote:My school, 22 years ago, had a registry for people to go, including who their date was, and a dress code. Once again, mal, your opinion stated as fact doesn't actually make it a fact.
That's the official route for the school knowing who's taking who. The unofficial route is for, y'know, teachers and administrators to have ears and be capable of hearing when many, many students discuss during their free time and during class time who they are taking or being taken by, and who else is going, etc. etc.
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quote:School proms do not ask who you are bringing, what you are going to wear or what is your sexuality.
Actually, mal, the opposite was true at my (public) high school.
When we bought our tickets, we had to write down our name and the name of who we were going with. If we showed up with anyone other than that person (we had to sign in and show ID at the door), we couldn't come in. We were not allowed same-sex dates. When A female friend of mine wanted another female friend of hers (just a friend) from another school to come, she had to have one of her male friends (without a date) sign up the friend as his "date" to get her in. It may have been that these students could have done the same thing, but maybe their own personal sense of integrity wouldn't allow them to.
As for there being no "PDA" at proms... dude, I graduated in 2006. There was... a LOT of PDA at our prom. More than I'd ever seen, anywhere, period. It was dark, and people found corners to hide in. Even the DANCING (if you could call it that) would have gotten you kicked out of anywhere else. Yes, the teachers told people to stop. But 15 teachers can't do much about 400 students.
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Who do you think you are, anyway, Tinros? Bringing in your recent personal experiences that directly contradict on the most fundamental level the truth malanthrop is bringing us? Jerk!
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Anyone from that school could attend the prom. The date from another school throws a wrinkle in it. A heterosexual can't just invite their same sex friends to attend the school prom. It's not like each student gets a free ticket to bring any outsider in. No one is turned down for going stag.
The PDA part is also, your experience. It isn't allowed but it is tolerated at crappy schools. I'm sorry your prom was tainted by dance floor dry humping. Perhaps your school should have a student organized, private prom. Of course, that would be considered segregation and attract the attention of the ACLU.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Anyone from that school could attend the prom. The date from another school throws a wrinkle in it. A heterosexual can't just invite their same sex friends to attend the school prom.
The two proms I attended were at Elvis' house here in Vegas, and Nellis Air Force Base. I graduated high school in 1999.
Maybe things were different back then. There wasn't any dirty dancing, and everyone behaved themselves. There was a girl that had gotten drunk before coming to the dance and we had a good laugh watching her dance. I had known her girlfriend Susan since sixth grade. It wasn't that big of a deal. They danced together during slow songs. Then again, a lot of girls that went by themselves danced with each other. The teachers didn't care.
We have no idea of knowing the true intentions of the girl. Maybe it was what Mal said, maybe it wasn't.
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I brought two "just friend" dates with my to my senior prom. I have a picture with one on each arm. Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I took a girl who hadn't come out about her homosexuality to my senior prom. I wonder how that'd fly at that school.
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I was a foil for a lesbian prom couple twice when I was a freshman and sophomore (at another school). They had to bring male dates because it was a girl's catholic school (I went to the boys school) and there was no stag option for those proms- you had to have a date. It was fun- I got to dance plenty with my date, who was older than me and really attractive, and I got to be seen at a prom when I was only a freshman, and the other guys from my school were all seniors.
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On the one hand, I'm glad someone stepped up and that there's an alternative to no-prom here, or everyone-but-her prom.
On the other hand, I hope the (quite understandably) adversarial, aggressive tone of the event - or is that just the article? - doesn't backfire. However justified, in my experience telling bigots how stupid and hateful they are in plain English doesn't often do very much except maybe make me feel better.
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My suspicion is that the press releases associated with it may convey the "screw you and your narrow beliefs" tone that is obviously implied, but I don't think the event itself would be that way, and ultimately what matters is will the kids get the fun event that they all want. (Though the fact that at least some of them will notice that this event is being funded by a humanist organization is certainly a plus. Parents and school administrators may be pissed, but kids are the future as the saying goes and think this will play out as an overall win for non-narrowminded-ness)
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See, I get the impression that this is a very religious town. I can't help but wonder how many parents won't let their students attend simply because it's a humanist organization putting it on, and they're worried for some reason.
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Well Tinros, in a town that 'religious', I think a bunch of initial response like that is inevitable regardless of whatever them damn dirty humanists do.
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Heh. It's unfortunate, certainly. It's a genuinely compassionate act on the part of that organization, I think.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I can't help but wonder how many parents won't let their students attend simply because it's a humanist organization putting it on, and they're worried for some reason.
At least if that happens, those kids won't be able to blame their ruined senior year on Constance McMillen anymore.
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quote:See, I get the impression that this is a very religious town. I can't help but wonder how many parents won't let their students attend simply because it's a humanist organization putting it on, and they're worried for some reason.
Oh I'm sure that will happen. And while they might be initially pissed, I'm sure a number of those students will eventually look back on the situation and believe their parents did the right thing. But those kids were going to grow up and be like their folks anyway. If no one had made a big deal about this, all other things being equal, most students in this town would probably would have ended up with beliefs similar to their parents.
Whereas now, a much larger portion of the student population is going to notice a) that the school decided to close down one of the biggest events in senior year so that two girls couldn't go, and b) that a humanist organization was the one that held the event instead. And as Sean noted, if parents forbid their kids to go it redirects their outrage from the girl in question to the stoic religious beliefs of the community.
There's still going to be some backlash, but overall this is about as big a win as you could reasonably expect for the forces of anti-narrowmindedness.
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Well I guess I'm on equal ground and negate all your arguments about all high school proms.
My high school prom didn't require me to register what I was wearing, what was my sexuality and who my date was prior to being allowed to attend.
It's unfortunate that so many of you attended schools with such elitist, snobby and sexist concerns.
At my school, having a school ID got you in. They didn't care if you wore a tux or a tux t-shirt. You could go stag or with a group of guys. There was only one rule,,....you need permission to bring a student from another school.
This lesbian's girlfriend from another school was denied. Hetero's from other schools are also denied, every day.
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Constance is loving it. Lesbian's attend proms together all the time. Constance is no different than the family of the Balloon Boy.
Constance made a scene out of nothing. The heterosexual without a date who was denied attendance of his best friend from another school equals her. She isn't a civil rights leader. She wanted attention and got it. Regular people, gay or not, don't announce what they are going to wear to the prom. Constance = balloon boy. No brave Rosa Parks in this story.
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mal, are you Christian? If so, there's a little commandment about bearing false witness you should look into... you know, nothing major, certainly not more important than the stuff about ritual sacrifices of lambs and whatnot, but there nevertheless. Could be useful.
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quote:Regular people, gay or not, don't announce what they are going to wear to the prom.
This made me giggle. Mal, have you ever spent any time with teenage girls around prom time? They announce what they're going to wear all the time, discuss it, brag about it. Even at my school (mostly we weren't very fashion concious), there was a lot of this. It's prom.
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Yeah, it's statements like that that underscore just how little he actually understands about this topic, Bella Bee. And he's been saying that sort of thing since the beginning of the thread, no less, a week ago. No matter how many people speak up and say, "This is completely mistaken," he persists in posting them.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Yeah, it's statements like that that underscore just how little he actually understands about this topic, Bella Bee.
Oh, he understands it just fine. He's deliberately misrepresenting it.
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One of my coworkers is actually getting ready to go to prom with her boyfriend. We have talked excitedly ALL WEEK about her dress.
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Telling your friends isn't an announcement. I didn't storm into the principle's office and say, I'm a heterosexual who's going to wear a green vested tux and I want to bring a girl from another town. If I had and he denied her attendance, I wouldn't call up the local press and claim discrimination.
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quote:If I had and he denied her attendance, I wouldn't call up the local press and claim discrimination.
First of all, why not? If a heterosexual couple did that the principal would say "Um, okay? Please leave my office." No one would get barred from anything. Second, why do you think they did anything resembling "storming" anyone?
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Heterosexuals get denials of this kind everyday. This is no different than a minority crying discrimination for not getting a promotion. Non-minorities are denied promotions every day and heterosexuals aren't always allowed to bring outsiders to the prom. This is a case-by-case decision. In this case, the girl wanted her Rosa Parks moment. The school wanted a prom not a Balloon Boy version of Brown VS the Board of Ed event.
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In a public school this should be an issue, IMO. For a Catholic school, I'd say the freedom of religion clause matches the anti-discrimination laws pretty evenly, so I am not sure who would win in court.
I'd say the school, actually.
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Was this incident in a Catholic school? If it were, this thread is completely pointless. I was kicked out of a Catholic school for refusing to play football another season.
Private institutions make their own rules.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Was this incident in a Catholic school? If it were, this thread is completely pointless.
No, it's not. For the same reason it's not pointless to talk about the DC archdiocese deciding to drop their support of orphans because the city dared to let gay couples adopt.
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Well, no, that isn't a very good comparison. There, they were objecting to a city policy. Here, they're choosing not to hold a school event. One is internal, one is at least partially external. Both are wrongheaded, but a school has the right to choose who attends, who doesn't, what events are held, what events aren't.
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The reason both share that make talk and threads about it not completely pointless is because talking about the guts of either decision hack away at the culture of reactionary homophobia.
Either situation, when talked about, help solidify the doomed nature of yesteryear's anti-gay institutional prejudices.
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Private institutions have the right to do as they please.
The KKK could form a private school. What minority would want to attend? I don't complain about BET (Black Entertainment TV). When the racist shoe is on the other foot, it's a big deal. Minorities are the greatest segregationists of all.
The lesbian prom attendee at a Catholic school is equivalent to a KKK member making a stink for being shut out of BET.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The lesbian prom attendee at a Catholic school is equivalent to a KKK member making a stink for being shut out of BET.
First of all, I think that's a ridiculous analogy, but I'm not going to bother addressing it because it doesn't matter.
This is a a PUBLIC high school, isn't it? "Itawamba County School District" would be an awfully odd name for a private Catholic school.
Point being that while private institutions may be able to get away with certain things public schools can't discriminate.
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That may be my mistake...I thought it was a Catholic school. There was a case like this involving a Catholic school a few months back, and I think I confused them in my head, then talked about them on a previous page as if they were the same case. Sorry about that.
If you accept federal monies, you are bound by the rules that govern them, plain and simple. That being said, dress codes can be enforced at school events, so it is a little bit of a gray area.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The lesbian prom attendee at a Catholic school is equivalent to a KKK member making a stink for being shut out of BET.
Yeah, I want a KKK member to come up to me and say that being a member of the KKK isn't a matter of choice.
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I would note that you are probably equally hard pressed to find a KKK member who thinks that being gay IS a matter of choice.
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Being gay is a choice. Pedophiles aren't granted the same accord for succumbing to their "natural" desires. Behavior is a choice. The law decides what behavior is accepted by society. Some people have a predisposition for thrill seeking. Some become sky divers and others bank robbers.
Public schools can and do discriminate. Some schools don't allow anyone from another school to attend their prom. They must really be elitist to not accept anyone from outside their organization. Most schools don't allow non-high school students to attend. Why shut out an 18 year old college student when his date is a 19 year old high school senior? They must hate college kids.
It's not uncommon for a high school student to be denied attendance of their date of choice. If her lesbian girlfriend was from the same school, they could've attended together. No one from outside that school has a right to attend.
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