posted
And now Iran wants to get in on this. I think at this point President Obama needs to say that intentionally trying to run the blockade as a means to score political points is ridiculous and needs to stop.
Israel shouldn't have to deal with this constantly. At this point, it's not about aid at all, it's about spinning things so ignorant folks at these country's home towns who don't know better think Israel is trying to starve the Palestinians.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Israel shouldn't have to deal with this constantly.
They shouldn't, which is why it is important for them to not act like retards. They can aspire to not exacerbate these situations like they totally did here.
posted
Figures you'd post a link to Ma'an. Why not go directly to the PA website and get their official take.
The only person acting like a retard here is you. And it's kind of funny, because ordinarily you come across as an adult, at least. Now you just sound like a bitchy little baby.
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posted
Lisa: there's no need to post your second sentence, you know exactly what it's going to lead to.
What exactly is MA'AN btw, I suppose I could do my own research right now, but you seem to know something about it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I think at this point President Obama needs to say that intentionally trying to run the blockade as a means to score political points is ridiculous and needs to stop.
*L* I don't think the people that are involved in either effort listed in the article will listen to Obama. Heck, I don't think Israel itself is much inclined to listen to Obama much either.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... What exactly is MA'AN btw, I suppose I could do my own research right now, but you seem to know something about it.
posted
Mucus: No, they don't. There might be more that US could do, but I think at this point we need to at least get behind Israel on this particular matter.
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You get covered in by tar in association by Israel with no possible change in how people actually treat the blockade. In fact, they might even be extra encouraged to go challenge the blockage to stick it to the US, especially in the Iranian case.
(foreign benefit, I can see a domestic American benefit to make Americans feel good about themselves)
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The only person acting like a retard here is you. And it's kind of funny, because ordinarily you come across as an adult, at least. Now you just sound like a bitchy little baby.
Strangely, out of the two of us, I am not the one posting these incensed and immature things!
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... What exactly is MA'AN btw, I suppose I could do my own research right now, but you seem to know something about it.
The only editing was to remove dead air. When people complained about that, they immediately posted the whole thing, uncut. "Admission", my ass.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The only editing was to remove dead air.
That is not true. They re edited it to string together stuff and make it seem like the immediate response from specific ships to the Israel fleet, and they made this an official release.
You also need to calm down and act more mature if you are going to criticize other people for their maturity.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... The only editing was to remove dead air. When people complained about that, they immediately posted the whole thing, uncut. "Admission", my ass.
Meh, it's CNN's headline, not mine. And considering how right-wing biased CNN is, it is probably the "best" (pro-Israeli) you'll get on an actual news outlet outside of Israel.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Why? What possible benefit is there*?
You get covered in by tar in association by Israel with no possible change in how people actually treat the blockade. In fact, they might even be extra encouraged to go challenge the blockage to stick it to the US, especially in the Iranian case.
(foreign benefit, I can see a domestic American benefit to make Americans feel good about themselves)
Not much foreign benefit, we are already perceived as favoring Israel far too much. But it's a simple matter of recognizing that Israel has the right to blockade its coast. If Iran is going to force the issue, I think it would be kinda fun to try to run the blockade (Iran's Blockade) with boats carrying a cargo of free press newspapers and news magazines.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... The only editing was to remove dead air. When people complained about that, they immediately posted the whole thing, uncut. "Admission", my ass.
Meh, it's CNN's headline, not mine. And considering how right-wing biased CNN is, it is probably the "best" (pro-Israeli) you'll get on an actual news outlet outside of Israel.
Wait. CNN is "right-wing biased"? So what would you consider left-wing biased? This? Or is that "right-wing biased" as well.
You have to be a complete fruitbat to think that CNN is "right-wing biased". Or that any network that has Christiane Amanpour "reporting" on Israel could ever be considered "pro-Israeli".
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Mucus: I've never heard anybody accuse CNN of having a right-wing bias. If anything, I've only heard right-wing folks say that CNN is too leftist.
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I consider CNN to be more to the right than to the left. Less so than FOX, of course, or CBS and ABC. A tad more to the right of MSNBC.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I consider CNN to be more to the right than to the left. Less so than FOX, of course, or CBS and ABC. A tad more to the right of MSNBC.
I think MSNBC is quite a bit to the left. But then again left in the US is quite a bit to the right.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... You have to be a complete fruitbat to think that CNN is "right-wing biased".
Or you know, just not American or Israeli. But I appreciate your insult and thoughtfulness it conveys.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Mucus: I've never heard anybody accuse CNN of having a right-wing bias. If anything, I've only heard right-wing folks say that CNN is too leftist.
*shrug* Take a list of actual news organizations, international or otherwise, The Economist, BBC, CBC, Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail, South China Morning Post, Al Jazeera, IHT, and so forth and you'll quickly see that CNN generally sorts to the right and in many cases is seen as a corporate counterpart to Voice of America.
Thats why CNN was specifically targeted by the likes of Anti-CNN regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
And more to my specific point, in this grand world of news reporting, who would be a major credible source of pro-Israel articles if not CNN?
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posted
I think there's a big difference with thinking that israel is on the whole retarded, which is why I can bother to care when they're, disappointingly, acting like retards. It's positive in the sense that I can at least expect better of them.
But thank you for hinting at a sort of a justification of your actions, however not-really-applicably, on mine. I am glad to know that despite your low opinion of me you'll still use me as an excuse for your own behavior.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: So basically, you'll continue being an ass?
My post has nothing to do with how I intend to act in the future. I'll note that I am neither acting as childishly as you nor am I calling you names like you're calling me names. If you care to set any benchmark, you have gone lower. Which is why at the very least while you continue to devolve into outright emotional hostility and the namecalling that invariably follows, don't bother coaching it in tu quoque.
You don't inspire any faith in your position when you start by just declaring 'big deal' and 'who cares' and, essentially, handwaving, and then despite how much you apparently don't care about the argument proper, deciding to flood it with bad facts and dismissive gestures.
But back to the subject of the last two posts: Kind of missing the point, aren't you? I know you know what tu quoque is.
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Every freaking thread seems to turn into a "who can act more childish" contest, a self-perpetuating descent into irrelevancy, where name-calling replaces discussion.
I didn't think that anything would ever make me long for the days of AOL, but seeing how much this board has devolved makes me nostalgic for the sound of a dial-up modem.
Way to go guys, way to go.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
My daughter turned 18 yesterday. She lives in Israel. In Maaleh Adumim, as it happens, which is outside the 1949 armistice lines. My son will turn 16 on June 19. You think this is some theoretical game of mental masturbation where you can sit back and make asinine judgements from afar. But my children are the ones who stand to pay the price for your idiocy.
This whole thread started because Israel boarded a boat full of terrorists and terror supporters. Not all the boats in the flotilla were. Some actually contained activists who, while maybe well meaning, were in the wrong. But the Mavi Marmara was carrying missiles and other serious armaments.
Did Israel know that? No, but you'd have to be an ass not to suspect it. The Arabs have made a regular practice of transporting arms in ambulances and firing missiles from civilian sites. And it turned out this ship was no exception to that rule.
Tell you what, Sam. The day you have a nation of savages clamoring (slavering) for your blood and for the destruction of your country, then you can open your overly large mouth and maybe have it mean something.
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quote:But my children are the ones who will pay the price for your idiocy.
Someone's children always pay. Such is the true nature of humanity that people can say "I'd rather it be your children than mine."
quote:The Arabs have made a regular practice of transporting arms in ambulances and firing missiles from civilian sites.
The Arabs. Really? All of them? Because I was at my friends house yesterday and apparently I must have missed the weapon smuggling ambulance departing between dinner and dessert.
quote:Tell you what, Sam. The day you have a nation of savages clamoring (slavering) for your blood and for the destruction of your country, then you can open your overly large mouth and maybe have it mean something.
Wha...?!? I'm pretty sure the same "savages" that want to destroy Israel would also like to destroy the U.S...
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:I don't, really, I'd prefer no confrontation at all.
Riiiiight. My very limited view of your posting style seems to indicate your love of confrontation.
No, seriously, I'll completely indulge in confrontation. Yet, to me, the optimal situation is to have it so that you could start a thread on Israel and not have her jump at the earliest opportunity to pepper it with indefensibly extremist views and pretty bald emotional hatred.
Her first post in thread was seriously who cares, i wish they had just sunk the ships. Even going so far as to point out the ridiculousness of this position is enough to count as provocation.
But sure, I'm amenable to changing my tone, even when I am, in turn, provoked by her. Because I can see how annoying we both can be to the rest of the forum!
But, it's worth checking through the thread and seeing the nature and ramping of our interactions.
quote:My daughter turned 18 yesterday. She lives in Israel. In Maaleh Adumim, as it happens, which is outside the 1949 armistice lines. My son will turn 16 on June 19. You think this is some theoretical game of mental masturbation where you can sit back and make asinine judgements from afar. But my children are the ones who stand to pay the price for your idiocy.
man, the best thing I could possibly do for your kids is keep Israel safe from what people like you would do to it if they got their way. Imagine if you'd gotten your wish and israel had just balls-out sunk the ships: boom, their lives just got harder. Israel's situation as a whole gets more screwed up for a good long stretch of time. The less credible you are, the better off your kids ultimately are. I'm happy for that. I'm happy for them!
Also, I'm not going to accept the presentation about the Mavi Maramara having missiles on that. You're not really credible enough to offer that on faith. I'd accept some credible news reports on it, of course, since I'd like to find out if there were actually missiles on board the ship. but right now, I straight up don't believe you!
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Breach of blockade is the passage of a vessel or aircraft through a blockade without special entry or exit authorization from the blockading belligerent. Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade, and for vessels exiting the blockaded area, continues until the voyage is completed. Knowledge of the existence of the blockade is essential to the offenses of breach of blockade and attempted breach of blockade. Knowledge may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification provided to affected governments. It is immaterial that the vessel or aircraft is at the time of interception bound for neutral territory, if its ultimate destination is the blockaded area. There is a presumption of attempted breach of blockade where vessels or aircraft are bound for a neutral port or airfield serving as a point of transit to the blockaded area. (Capture of such vessels is discussed in paragraph 7.10.)
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Also, I'm not going to accept the presentation about the Mavi Maramara having missiles on that. You're not really credible enough to offer that on faith. I'd accept some credible news reports on it, of course, since I'd like to find out if there were actually missiles on board the ship. but right now, I straight up don't believe you!
posted
7.7.4 is in regards for when a blockade of one country is being initiated onto another country and this act is being sanctioned under an act of war. It's not applicable, technically, to the situation in Gaza. 7.7.2.5 renders Israel's action arguably illegal under US law anyway so it's not like they're going to use US law to defend their actions, so what US law says about the matter is a red herring.
Still waiting for credible evidence that there were missiles on the Mavi Maramara.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Also, I'm not going to accept the presentation about the Mavi Maramara having missiles on that. You're not really credible enough to offer that on faith. I'd accept some credible news reports on it, of course, since I'd like to find out if there were actually missiles on board the ship. but right now, I straight up don't believe you!
This is a video that shows me some missiles. Are they purported to have been on the ship? Is this actually a news site? What does the news site say? All are a mystery.
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posted
It looks like the Israeli equivalent of youtube. Clearly, this is amazingly credible.
Note that the actual article from Israeli's own propaganda doesn't even go to the extreme lengths of claiming that they found missiles. The most they can do are kitchen knives, metal rods, clubs, and sticks.
I can only imagine the ribbing Blayne would get if he linked to something that was more propaganda than Xinhua Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: It looks like the Israeli equivalent of youtube. Clearly, this is amazingly credible.
Note that the actual article from Israeli's own propaganda doesn't even go to the extreme lengths of claiming that they found missiles.
You wanna know something funny about the picture of the bulletproof vests on your link? Some people looked up its EXIF data and it's a picture that's been on file from, I think, 2007.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Also, I'm not going to accept the presentation about the Mavi Maramara having missiles on that. You're not really credible enough to offer that on faith. I'd accept some credible news reports on it, of course, since I'd like to find out if there were actually missiles on board the ship. but right now, I straight up don't believe you!
posted
Yup totally still waiting for any credible news showing that there were missiles on that ship.
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quote:Particularly in the younger generations, fewer and fewer American Jewish liberals are Zionists; fewer and fewer American Jewish Zionists are liberal. One reason is that the leading institutions of American Jewry have refused to foster—indeed, have actively opposed—a Zionism that challenges Israel’s behavior in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and toward its own Arab citizens. For several decades, the Jewish establishment has asked American Jews to check their liberalism at Zionism’s door, and now, to their horror, they are finding that many young Jews have checked their Zionism instead.
Morally, American Zionism is in a downward spiral. If the leaders of groups like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations do not change course, they will wake up one day to find a younger, Orthodox-dominated, Zionist leadership whose naked hostility to Arabs and Palestinians scares even them
Hee. Well, we'll see how that goes in combination with Israel itself experiencing the burgeoning problem of Orthodox economic and social coasters.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: It looks like the Israeli equivalent of youtube. Clearly, this is amazingly credible.
Note that the actual article from Israeli's own propaganda doesn't even go to the extreme lengths of claiming that they found missiles.
You wanna know something funny about the picture of the bulletproof vests on your link? Some people looked up its EXIF data and it's a picture that's been on file from, I think, 2007.
Is there a link about this?
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
As embarrassing as the lack of follow-up on this is, and as smug as the triumph may be, it should be noted that that footage was, at one point, what ships were bringing in to Gaza, which was the reason for the blockade in the first place.
I think that the footage serves as evidence for Israel's moral claim of having to implement a blockade for its own safety - and helps complete an otherwise damning picture of an evil blockade causing human rights violations.
I thought this interview with Mahmoud Abbas was really interesting for his thoughts about how violent protest has failed, and that tactics should change.
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quote:As embarrassing as the lack of follow-up on this is, and as smug as the triumph may be, it should be noted that that footage was, at one point, what ships were bringing in to Gaza, which was the reason for the blockade in the first place.
Obviously that's part of it, but there have been statements from Israeli govt officials and American supporters suggesting that the goal is "to put Gaza on a diet" as punishment.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You say as punishment. Because that's the way you think. These people are making war against us. We owe them *at the very most* a sustanence. We certainly don't owe them a single grain of wheat beyond that.
If they stop making war against us, they can live their lives however they want. If they don't, they're lucky we allow them a sustanence at all.
And Armoth, I know this is spitting in the wind, but you don't listen to what Holocaust denier Abbas says in English or to an English speaking audience. You find out what he's saying in Arabic to an Arabic speaking audience. Because that's what counts.
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And Armoth, I know this is spitting in the wind, but you don't listen to what Holocaust denier Abbas says in English or to an English speaking audience. You find out what he's saying in Arabic to an Arabic speaking audience. Because that's what counts.
Stop making sense. It's harder to dismiss you that way. Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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