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This almost calls out for some form of reference, from some kind of archive of themes or patterns.
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I dunno. It's a valiant attempt I'm sure, but it seems to be missing something. Some form of je ne sais quoi that such references are normally accompanied by.
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You didn't click on at least one of those links. You may have followed the directions, though.
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No, it's not that. There's just still something missing. Oh well, the moment has passed. I guess we'll never know.
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Good to see he flatly rejected the rules of Quidditch upon first explanation. Horrible game invention (my guess is Rowling never played any sports).
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That the wizarding world is so phenomenally dull that they're enthralled by as lame a game as that?
That in all the wizarding world, not one person ever realized how dull it is to have the snitch and winning of the game so much up chance?
Or that everybody in the wizarding world is such sheep that even though they all knew quiddich was lame, nobody was willing to point out that the emperor was naked?
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I always figured it was a way to make Harry into a sports hero (and work in the classic traditions of the "big game" in British schoolyard novels) despite his having never trained with anything.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I always figured it was a way to make Harry into a sports hero (and work in the classic traditions of the "big game" in British schoolyard novels) despite his having never trained with anything.
Possibly. If you took away quidditch, I imagine Harry would appeal to fewer boys, as then he would only be running around doing bookish things.
He needs some sort of physical contact activity that establishes his manliness.
If I was a quidditch coach, I'd have two maybe three players guard the rings and the rest of my team would be looking around for the snitch. Of course it could be like lacrosse where you can only have so many players at one section of the field.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I always figured it was a way to make Harry into a sports hero (and work in the classic traditions of the "big game" in British schoolyard novels) despite his having never trained with anything.
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I've seen the game rules explained well in some fanfiction. I think the main points made are that in a real, professional game, the snitch is a *lot* harder to catch - and that it can't even be seen for the first hour or so of game play. Also, the seeker's job is not just to catch the snitch, but also to coordinate the offensive and defensive maneuvers of the team through calls, hand motions, and occasionally getting involved in game play. If he doesn't do that as well as search for the snitch, the other team will run up the score exceedingly quickly, because they will be better coordinated.
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So someone explain to me the point of the chasers and keepers. Only in a rare instance do the points scored by the chasers come out to more than what the snitch is worth, as evidenced by everyone's surprise by the outcome of the World Cup.
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quote:Also, the seeker's job is not just to catch the snitch, but also to coordinate the offensive and defensive maneuvers of the team through calls, hand motions, and occasionally getting involved in game play.
Taking up the time of the one guy who actually matters to run the sub-game that matters not all sounds exceedingly dumb to me. The goalie or one of the useless beaters would be a much better coordinator.
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While I agree with everything Harry said about Quidditch, he was sure rude to trash Ron's favourite game to his face. What a creep! There's lots of stuff I think is dumb that I don't run down in front of someone I know likes it.
Yeah, I read the latest chapters and knew Harry was pathetically wrong with all his genetics stuff, way too many baseless assumptions. Then I read the author notes where he says Harry is *supposed* to be wrong.
The real headbanger is why Draco believes Harry about all the genetic stuff. He can reason from the data collected from the portraits or something, which seems to indicate that the overall level of magic isn't fading, but why does he then believe Harry regarding blood?
He has never heard of Mendel or studied genetics; how does he know Harry isn't making it all up, or is hopelessly wrong? (And, of course, he *is* wrong.)
Even if he believes Harry is correct about *Muggle* genetics, why would he assume (as Harry does) that it applies AT ALL to magical power?
What if magical power isn't genetic, but is more like midi-chlorians from the Star Wars prequels?
Harry was already utterly wrong about the relationship between the exact words of a spell and its efficacy; why should he have any confidence in applying Muggle science to the magical world?
He needs to spend a lot more time studying the way the magical world thinks the magical world works, and not try to make earth-shattering discoveries based on his own assumptions and ignorance.
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quote:He has never heard of Mendel or studied genetics; how does he know Harry isn't making it all up, or is hopelessly wrong?
This was actually the first major plot hole that leapt out at me: Draco has no reason to believe that anything Harry says about genetics is true. It would have been more credible had Harry, say, given Draco a couple books on genetics. And, as pointed out, by that point of the story Harry should have ample reason to recognize that magic does not necessarily function in a rational way.
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quote:Also, the seeker's job is not just to catch the snitch, but also to coordinate the offensive and defensive maneuvers of the team through calls, hand motions, and occasionally getting involved in game play.
Taking up the time of the one guy who actually matters to run the sub-game that matters not all sounds exceedingly dumb to me. The goalie or one of the useless beaters would be a much better coordinator.
If the snitch doesn't show up for an hour or two into game play - and assuming that the chasers are significantly better than the grade school to high school kids we see playing at Hogwarts - then I think it's reasonable to assume that the snitch matters much less. Basically, I'm assuming that the kids at Hogwarts aren't really that good at the game. A three person team, able to move three dimensionally, aiming for three goals protected by only one goal keeper, ought to be able to score a lot of goals quickly if they're good and coordinate well - quickly enough for one side to pull ahead significantly. Rowling's books, of course, don't show this.
I'm not saying that the game makes sense. It doesn't. However, there are ways to make it make a little bit more sense than the books' version of the game.
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quote:He has never heard of Mendel or studied genetics; how does he know Harry isn't making it all up, or is hopelessly wrong?
This was actually the first major plot hole that leapt out at me: Draco has no reason to believe that anything Harry says about genetics is true. It would have been more credible had Harry, say, given Draco a couple books on genetics. And, as pointed out, by that point of the story Harry should have ample reason to recognize that magic does not necessarily function in a rational way.
Thirded. This is a very large hole.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I always figured it was a way to make Harry into a sports hero (and work in the classic traditions of the "big game" in British schoolyard novels) despite his having never trained with anything.
If you read "Tom Brown's Schooldays", he's quite good at cricket without there being any explicit training montages. He just has the cricket nature, unlike Flashy who has the loser-and-bully nature. I also note that Quidditch looks a bit like someone decided to take cricket, add broomsticks, and then noticed that even with the kids flying around the game is still dull as ditchwater. So we'll add the Beaters to make it a bit more physical; but if the truth were told those balls are rather dangerous. They can't be a major plot point because there would be broken bones. (This is why they are useless, by the way - they were originally quite useful, and then when she had second thoughts Rowling didn't take them out.) So then she made it a hunt-the-snipe game instead, and kept the cricket elements to give the punters something to watch while they were buying their popcorn.
quote:Would one need to read Harry Potter first to appreciate this?
Apparently one would not even need to read the canon first to write this. The author has stated that he has not read all the books.
quote:Ender is unquestionably, vastly smarter. Harry in this story is actually, it turns out, quite badly, dangerously stupid when it comes to a few areas of dealing with other human beings.
He was homeschooled by smart people. Naturally he has difficulty, through sheer lack of practice, in interacting with neurotypicals - I use the word here not to contrast with Aspies but to contrast with high-intelligence humans. The median human is, well, the kind of person who would find Quidditch entertaining. Actually, it's worse than that; Quidditch at least offers the faint hope that one of the players might fall off and break something. The average human has been known to find cricket entertaining.
quote:Draco is a tool and Hermione is a tool and/or rival to be crushed. Ron, who has some great qualities - loyalty, bravery - was dismissed out-of-hand.
How is Harry supposed to know anything about those qualities? Let's please note that rational!Harry has not read the canon! What he sees of Ron is a tool who prattles on about the most boring game in the world to someone he's just met. Sheesh, talk about geekery. Also, you underestimate the extent to which intelligent people find neurotypicals, especially extroverted neurotypicals, really damn boring. As Harry points out, with the exception of janitorial services there's no particular need for Ron or his like to exist. So, in the wizarding world, where they've got perfectly cromulent house-elves for that sort of thing, no need at all.
Further, Draco is not a tool, he is a smart person to be redeemed from the bad ethics he's been taught; and Hermione is a rival, yes, but not to be crushed - she is a rival to spur him to greater heights of accomplishment. Also, although he hasn't realised it yet, he likes her.
ETA: Also, he does not dismiss Ron out of hand. He states "I will not allow you to dictate whom I speak to", and then allows Ron's prejudices against Malfoys (admittedly these are not unfounded) to end the conversation. If Ron weren't such a bigot he might have become friends with both Draco and Harry.
[ June 07, 2010, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: King of Men ]
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quote:I'm not saying that the game makes sense. It doesn't. However, there are ways to make it make a little bit more sense than the books' version of the game.
Well, yeah, if you get to change the game, you can make a decent game out of it.
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quote:Would one need to read Harry Potter first to appreciate this?
Apparently one would not even need to read the canon first to write this. The author has stated that he has not read all the books.
Well, he has read the first 5 books, I believe. Considering that so far we've made it through less than the first book in terms of both chronology and most plot points, that seems to be sufficient.
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quote:Well, he has read the first 5 books, I believe. Considering that so far we've made it through less than the first book in terms of both chronology and most plot points, that seems to be sufficient.
Since he mentions the Cloak as a Deathly Hallow, I conjecture he's at least read summaries of the last two books? It'd be embarrassing to write any more about Snape and get something wrong because he didn't even know Snape's Secret.
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quote:As Harry points out, with the exception of janitorial services there's no particular need for Ron or his like to exist.
Better a Ron than a Draco, or a Sam than a Wormtongue. Ron's a brave, kindhearted guy who would risk death if his friends needed it. That's not to say his other qualities are stellar, or to suggest that Harry should somehow have magically seen them or something, but not only is it incredibly presumptuous to say someone 'like him' is only good for janitorial work, it's actually quite stupid.
'Smart' is not some swiss army knife tool that fits into every single problem that can be found. Generations of presumable brilliance didn't save the Malfoys, for example, from being an ongoing line of horrible sadists. Draco has just now joined that little club himself, actually, twice over now. Smart didn't save Draco from being too weak to stop himself from doing something he knew was awful. Presented with the same situation, at whose mercy would you rather be, Ron's or Sam's or Draco's or Grima's?
ETA: Wait a minute, Ron is hardly a bigot. He has heard a bunch of truly awful stories about the Malfoys...and they're true. The Malfoy creed, so far as I can tell, seems to be: Malfoys first at the expense of everything else, and get rid of (painfully would be nice) any muggles, mudbloods, squibs, or anyone friendly with such. That's what people in the HP world seem to think about the Malfoys...and they're right to think that, aren't they?
I don't particularly care about Ron - Snape is my favorite - but you're being pretty silly, KoM.
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quote:Presented with the same situation, at whose mercy would you rather be, Ron's or Sam's or Draco's or Grima's?
Ron and Sam are not smart enough to put you in that situation, so what does it matter? The question doesn't come up.
quote:Wait a minute, Ron is hardly a bigot. He has heard a bunch of truly awful stories about the Malfoys...and they're true.
They are true, but how is Ron to know that? He is in exactly the situation of a Klansman meeting his first black man: He is going on what he heard from his parents. It might actually be true that this particular black man genuinely is shiftless, cunning, and out to rape every white woman in sight and steal all your valuables, but to judge him so based on nothing more than hearsay is bigoted even if you're right.
All I'm sayin' is, give Draco a chance!
quote:Ron's a brave, kindhearted guy who would risk death if his friends needed it. That's not to say his other qualities are stellar, or to suggest that Harry should somehow have magically seen them or something, but not only is it incredibly presumptuous to say someone 'like him' is only good for janitorial work, it's actually quite stupid.
People willing to risk death for their friends are a dime a dozen. It's built into the species. People who are actually interesting to talk to are much rarer, and also more useful on a daily basis. Even at Hogwarts, situations where a sacrificable friend/mook are useful do not come up every day, or even every month.
Be honest, now: Just how many janitors are you actually friendly with? It doesn't matter how good their hearts are, you don't choose to socialise with them on a daily basis, because their concerns are boring.
quote:The Malfoy creed, so far as I can tell, seems to be: Malfoys first at the expense of everything else, and get rid of (painfully would be nice) any muggles, mudbloods, squibs, or anyone friendly with such. That's what people in the HP world seem to think about the Malfoys...and they're right to think that, aren't they?
Quite so; and thus, given that you can only improve one of these two people, would you rather give Ron a brain, or Draco a heart? Which would do more good?
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quote:He has never heard of Mendel or studied genetics; how does he know Harry isn't making it all up, or is hopelessly wrong?
This was actually the first major plot hole that leapt out at me: Draco has no reason to believe that anything Harry says about genetics is true. It would have been more credible had Harry, say, given Draco a couple books on genetics. And, as pointed out, by that point of the story Harry should have ample reason to recognize that magic does not necessarily function in a rational way.
Thirded. This is a very large hole.
In the first place, what motive does Harry have to lie? In the second place, Draco is well-trained at human interactions; he can likely tell that Harry believes what he's saying, and he has already demonstrated that Muggle science is powerful stuff. In the third place, it fits in with what Draco is seeing in the data he just gathered. In the fourth place, Draco believes in blood and its purity; this confirms something he already believed, it just adds some more information.
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quote:Ron and Sam are not smart enough to put you in that situation, so what does it matter? The question doesn't come up.
Ron and Sam aren't smart enough to, say, sneak up behind you when they're angry, clonk you on the head and torture you? Sure they are-they just wouldn't, which is the point. They aren't smart enough to put one in precisely the same situation, it's true, but just about anyone could manage an equivalent degree of suffering without much imagination.
quote:They are true, but how is Ron to know that? He is in exactly the situation of a Klansman meeting his first black man: He is going on what he heard from his parents. It might actually be true that this particular black man genuinely is shiftless, cunning, and out to rape every white woman in sight and steal all your valuables, but to judge him so based on nothing more than hearsay is bigoted even if you're right.
Except that the Malfoys embrace their reputation, in large part, except where doing so overtly would get them in some sort of legal trouble. They thrive on the intimidation and subtle threats and influence-peddling and whatnot. It's not the same thing as hating an entire race of people at all. Is it right? Well, no, not exactly-Ron really should give Draco a chance. But he has hardly wronged Draco by not doing so, since after all Draco is the kid who jokes about raping and pushing down stairs.
quote:All I'm sayin' is, give Draco a chance!
He's had a chance. When given that chance, however, he chose to torture someone terribly, possibly to the death. Just because he didn't like what he heard.
quote:People willing to risk death for their friends are a dime a dozen. It's built into the species. People who are actually interesting to talk to are much rarer, and also more useful on a daily basis. Even at Hogwarts, situations where a sacrificable friend/mook are useful do not come up every day, or even every month.
Wow, they're really not. I don't know where on Earth you could possibly get the impression that that sort of self-sacrifice is not just rare but commonplace. Even in military organizations where that sort of thing is trained for arduously and carefully it's hardly common.
As for 'interesting to talk to', well, that's a pretty subjective qualifier. I wonder where thinking there is no point in the existence of whole swaths of people puts you on such a scale? Beyond this particular disagreement which will be over soon, that sort of arrogance is really pretty boring.
quote:Be honest, now: Just how many janitors are you actually friendly with? It doesn't matter how good their hearts are, you don't choose to socialise with them on a daily basis, because their concerns are boring.
Right now? One. Thinking about it, though, he's the only one I know that I know of, presently. Over time, though, there have been several over the years. Then again, I don't vet people primarily through a smarter-than dumber-than me process, either.
quote:Quite so; and thus, given that you can only improve one of these two people, would you rather give Ron a brain, or Draco a heart? Which would do more good?
False choice, first of all. Harry is clever enough to think of any number of ways of doing so-just like he has with Hermione. Second, the reasons Draco would do more good have nothing to do with him as a human being and everything to do with his family, which is a different matter altogether, entirely separate from a precise Ron vs. Draco question.
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a) I'm pretty sure Draco said "no reason to exist," Harry just sort of agreed with him because at the time it felt sort of true.
b) the main point of the line is to be commentary on Ron's uselessness as a character. I somewhat agree with this. Ron frankly is not particularly interesting, I never found him particularly funny, he accomplishes a total of maybe 3 meaningful things in the entire story. A few plot points surround him but those plot points could have surrounded other people instead. His primary purpose seems merely to be to show that you can be... well... NORMAL in the wizarding world. That's value in that, enough to justify his inclusion in the original story in my opinion. But I totally understand the people (like this author, presumably) who just went "man, why did this guy take up1/7th of these books?"
So... between those two points, I don't think it is remotely implied that Harry genuinely thinks Ron is useless as a person, just that he's useless to Harry. Which is, frankly, true. The Weasely Twins have most of Ron's good qualities and offer Harry interesting creativity to boot, so they are the ones that have ended up more relevant to the story. (Not so much so far, but I suspect they'll be showing up more in the future).
Draco may think Ron is meaningless, but he's, well, Draco. So duh.
[ June 07, 2010, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: People willing to risk death for their friends are a dime a dozen. It's built into the species. People who are actually interesting to talk to are much rarer, and also more useful on a daily basis.
You mean it could get even more boring than listening to Harry give lectures on the scientific method? I suppose he could introduce a young, magical John Galt into the story and let him drone on for a while.
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Yes, well, since you apparently were behind the door when that part of the brain was handed out, naturally it would bore you. But come now, just how interested are you really in hearing an 11-year-old prattle on about his favourite badly-designed sport?
quote:*shrug* I don't think those even need to be refuted.
Why not?
quote:Ron and Sam aren't smart enough to, say, sneak up behind you when they're angry, clonk you on the head and torture you? Sure they are-they just wouldn't, which is the point. They aren't smart enough to put one in precisely the same situation, it's true, but just about anyone could manage an equivalent degree of suffering without much imagination.
You will please note that Draco doesn't do that either, for the good and simple reason that he would get caught. The question is not "Can we come up with some hypothetical scenario in which Ron wins", it is "Can Ron actually win under conditions remotely similar to the fictional reality he's operating in?" So no, Ron is not smart enough to get Harry into this sort of situation without the author - you, in this case - being actively on his side.
quote:Is it right? Well, no, not exactly-Ron really should give Draco a chance. But he has hardly wronged Draco by not doing so, since after all Draco is the kid who jokes about raping and pushing down stairs.
But he has wronged Draco, by pre-judging him. If he overheard Draco say those things and then stomped off in the huff, that would be one thing. But he goes purely by hearsay.
quote:Wow, they're really not. I don't know where on Earth you could possibly get the impression that that sort of self-sacrifice is not just rare but commonplace. Even in military organizations where that sort of thing is trained for arduously and carefully it's hardly common.
If you take a look at an average army in combat, you'll see people risking their lives for their comrades all the time. What's rare is people taking a 100% risk. Lots of people will jump for the grenade in an attempt to throw it back; the rarity is people who will jump on the grenade. I suspect you speak of the second kind of sacrifice, and I speak of the first. I note that Ron's knight-sacrifice in 'Chamber of Secrets' was of the first kind: He knew he was taking a risk, but he didn't know he would be killed. (And indeed he wasn't.)
quote:As for 'interesting to talk to', well, that's a pretty subjective qualifier. I wonder where thinking there is no point in the existence of whole swaths of people puts you on such a scale? Beyond this particular disagreement which will be over soon, that sort of arrogance is really pretty boring.
Yes, yes, you're very good at signalling that you really care even about the slow people and that you don't associate with such as don't signal same. But as a matter of actual fact you're right here talking to me.
quote:Right now? One. Thinking about it, though, he's the only one I know that I know of, presently. Over time, though, there have been several over the years. Then again, I don't vet people primarily through a smarter-than dumber-than me process, either.
Yes you do, it's just that your acceptable window includes more of the bell curve than mine does. I keep forgetting that not many people, even in the educated upper third of the bell curve, are quite as atypical as I am, so I calibrated my question wrongly. How many IQ-70 (indicating a broad range of sub-normal intellect rather than a specific IQ number, here) handicapped people do you have conversations with on a regular basis?
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Harry is one hell of a Marty Stu, and I do not care in the slightest because he is awesome. I understand the people who don't like him (in particular who don't like his inner monologue). But while he's a bit of an exaggeration (smarter than me, with bigger flaws), pretty much every trait that has been praised or criticized in this thread is something I myself have had to deal with.
He gets to say the sorts of things I'd want to say all the time, and it's fun to watch when he's getting away with absolutely ridiculous things. Yet it doesn't feel like pure escapist Marty Stu-ism because all of his ridiculous actions end up having major consequences.
His "cold, calculating side" is something I've worried about myself. I don't lack for real, genuine relationships, but I do see the world through a mechanical, deterministic, logical lens that at times has made me feel a little inhuman.
Was it mean to trash Ron's favorite game? Well, yeah. But if someone spent 15 minutes about a ridiculous game that made no sense, honestly I'd probably have had exactly Harry's reaction. I live in a subculture where dissecting things and why they don't work is just part of ordinary conversation. It would certainly behoove Harry (and me) to get better at learning when to shut up and follow the social norms of other people, but there is nothing inherently better about prattling on about a sport you think is amazing that everyone should no about than prattling on about why that sport is ridiculous.
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The thing I love about this fic so much is that Harry's criticisms about the wizarding world are exactly the sorts of things I think about it. I like the Harry Potter stories, but there is lots about it that Just Bugs Me, and this fic addresses it in a hilarious way, by having a character do it in-story. That makes me laugh and laugh and laugh.
By chapter 23 though, I'm now genuinely interested in seeing where this new story goes. We've left the confines of the book at this point and are moving into uncharted territory. Philosopher's Stone? Harry won't be trying to get it, and so there is no chance of Voldy getting it, because it can only be retrieved by someone who wants it but won't use it.
So the whole climax of book one is already moot, and here it is October of Harry's first year...
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I'm kind of having the opposite reaction here: I loved the beginning but the farther down I move the less I like it. I think the long monologues with Quirrell are where it really took a down-turn for me. Even when Harry's involved it still reads like a monologue, and same for his conversations with others. Don't get me wrong, for free, fanfic this is very good and I enjoyed it, I'm just not as impressed as a lot of others seem to be.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: People willing to risk death for their friends are a dime a dozen. It's built into the species. People who are actually interesting to talk to are much rarer, and also more useful on a daily basis.
You mean it could get even more boring than listening to Harry give lectures on the scientific method? I suppose he could introduce a young, magical John Galt into the story and let him drone on for a while.
Exactly; I think it's funny I was comparing a lot of it to that ridiculously long 'radio sermon' by Galt in Atlas Shrugged just as you (apparently) were, and then it was mentioned in the story as an item of ridicule. Very amusing.
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Also, you underestimate the extent to which intelligent people find neurotypicals, especially extroverted neurotypicals, really damn boring. As Harry points out, with the exception of janitorial services there's no particular need for Ron or his like to exist. So, in the wizarding world, where they've got perfectly cromulent house-elves for that sort of thing, no need at all. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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