posted
Seatarsprayan- the problem is that Ron judges not Lucius, but Draco. When Draco entered the school, had he done anything evil? At this point, it seems like all we know about the kid is that his dad is evil beyond belief. It is a bit unfair to judge the kid based on his dad.
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I think it's significantly less unfair to judge a child based on their parent than a person based on their race. Yes, it's still unfair to some degree, but children ARE strongly influenced by their parents. I think it'd be fine to be cautious around Draco, but not fair to yell "DON'T HANG OUT WITH HIM" as Ron did.
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posted
It's generally my experience that, "Stupid people are boring!" is a statement that says more about the speaker's feelings of superiority than it really does about the subject's intelligence, whether the subject if dumb or not.
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So your contention is that the actual causality runs the other way, that if I find someone boring I will conclude that they are also stupid?
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Not necessarily. You could find someone boring for other reasons. "Stupid people are boring," is not the same as, "Only stupid people are boring."
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quote:So your contention is that the actual causality runs the other way, that if I find someone boring I will conclude that they are also stupid?
Nope. There are people who I know are quite intelligent but are, to me, pretty boring.
Yes, but my 'I' was intended to be specific. I do not think you propose this as a general pattern, I am asking whether you think this is why I say that stupid people are boring.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: ... The Klansman pre-judges black people (and every non-white conservative Christian, really) on the basis of what they have heard from other untrustworthy people ...
Tangent: Culture gap question, in what way does a Klansman prejudge non-white conservative Christian that would differ from the way they prejudge (or not) non-white liberal Christians or non-white non-Christians?
Bumped for Rakeesh, some cultural thing I'm not aware of?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I would guess that you could also find people boring for other reasons.
Quite so, I'm aware of some quite intelligent people who are really terrible speakers or explainers. But my question for Rakeesh is this: Given that I dismiss someone as stupid and therefore boring, is it your contention that I actually don't have an estimate of their intelligence? In other words, do I find such people stupid because they are boring, instead of the other way around?
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quote:Seatarsprayan- the problem is that Ron judges not Lucius, but Draco. When Draco entered the school, had he done anything evil? At this point, it seems like all we know about the kid is that his dad is evil beyond belief. It is a bit unfair to judge the kid based on his dad.
I know, but see my earlier point, being that we don't know for sure if Ron is pre-judging Draco because we don't know what he's heard about him; we don't know that he hasn't actually seen Draco be bigoted, or even met him before, or what.
Draco is not a nobody, he's the son of one of the most powerful and influential wizards in Britain.
Ron is a pureblood wizard himself, the wizarding community is *small*, it actually seems somewhat less likely that he'd never even laid eyes on Draco until the first day of school. And even so, you'd think word would spread about Draco being a bigot and all.
Of course, if Ron has never met Draco, nor seen him, nor even heard evidence firsthand, but only secondhand, thirdhand, fourthhand rumors and such, then that would make Ron unfortunately credulous (which certainly is possible!). Does the fact the rumors are in fact true mitigate it a little?
My point is only this: we'd have to know Ron's actual thought processes to know for sure if he arrived at the (true) conclusion "Draco is a jerk" in an acceptable way or not. Calling him prejudiced or a klansman or whatever is going a bit far without more proof.
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quote:My point is only this: we'd have to know Ron's actual thought processes to know for sure if he arrived at the (true) conclusion "Draco is a jerk" in an acceptable way or not. Calling him prejudiced or a klansman or whatever is going a bit far without more proof.
Ok, this is fair enough, I concede the point. But let's have another look at what Harry knows about Ron's thought processes, based on those five or ten minutes' acquaintance.
1. He is a sports geek (and sheesh, if any kind of neurotypical is worse than the extroverted one it's the sports-obsessed one), and the sport is very badly designed at that, yet he's not willing to consider that a change might be an improvement. 2. He does not give any sort of argument for why Harry should not associate with Draco; he just says, "Him or me." If he knows Draco is a jerk, why not present some evidence? But no, he goes instantly for the appeal to emotion; he apparently believes himself so worthy of loyalty from Harry - whom he met ten minutes ago - that he can make the demand "Stop associating with this guy" and be obeyed without question. Sheesh, talk about arrogance! Draco, on the other hand, is smart enough to play the game of flattering and counter-flattering, and willing to talk about something other than an absent-gods-help-us sport besides.
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posted
Before Ron's ultimatum, there is quite a bit of an exchange with all three of them in which Draco is pretty obnoxious. So is Harry. Afterwards, Harry and Draco smugly agree that there is no reason for Ron to exist.
quote:"You get away from... from Mr. Gold," Ron said coldly, and took a step forward. "He doesn't need to talk to the likes of you!"
Harry raised a placating hand. "I'll go by Mr. Bronze, thanks for the naming schema. And, Ron, um," Harry struggled to find a way to say this, "I'm glad you're so... enthusiastic about protecting me, but I don't particularly mind talking to Draco -"
This was apparently the last straw for Ron, who spun on Harry with eyes now aflame with outrage. "What? Do you know who this is?"
"Yes, Ron," Harry said, "you may remember that I called him Draco without him needing to introduce himself."
Draco sniggered. Then his eyes lit on the white owl on Ron's shoulder. "Oh, what's this?" Draco said in a drawl rich with malice. "Where is the famous Weasley family rat?"
"Buried in the backyard," Ron said coldly.
"Aw, how sad. Pot... ah, Mr. Bronze, I should mention that the Weasley family is widely agreed to have the best pet story ever. Want to tell it, Weasley?"
Ron's face contorted. "You wouldn't think it was funny if it happened to your family!"
"Oh," Draco purred, "but it wouldn't ever happen to the Malfoys."
Ron's hands clenched into fists -
"That's enough," Harry said, putting as much quiet authority into the voice as he could manage. It was clear that whatever this was, it was a painful memory for the red-haired kid. "If Ron doesn't want to talk about it, he doesn't have to talk about it, and I'd ask that you not talk about it either."
Draco turned a surprised look on Harry, and Ron nodded. "That's right, Harry! I mean Mr. Bronze! You see what kind of person he is? Now tell him to go away!"
Harry counted to ten inside his head, which for him was a very quick 12345678910 - an odd habit left over from the age of five when his mother had first instructed him to do it, and Harry had reasoned that his way was faster and ought to be just as effective. "Ron," Harry said calmly, "I'm not telling him to go away. He's welcome to talk to me if he wants."
"Well, I don't intend to hang around with anyone who hangs around with Draco Malfoy," Ron announced coldly.
Harry shrugged. "That's up to you. I don't intend to let anyone say who I can and can't hang around with." Silently chanting, please go away, please go away...
Ron's face went blank with surprise, like he'd actually expected that line to work. Then Ron spun about, yanked his luggage's leash and stormed off down the platform.
I'll admit that Draco is being his usual unloveable self here, the one we know so well from the canon, but I don't quite see what Harry is doing wrong. He tells Draco to back off the pet thing on the grounds that it's clearly hurting Ron, then he tells Ron that he, Ron, cannot dictate who Harry hangs out with, and that's it. Where is the obnoxiety?
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quote: "Very good," Harry said. "However, so as not to obviate the point of the whole exercise, you will henceforth address me as," Verres might not work anymore, "Mr. Spoo."
"Okay, Harry," Ron said uncertainly.
The Force is not particularly strong in this one. "Call... me... Mister... Spoo."
"Okay, Mister Spoo -" Ron stopped. "I can't do that, it makes me feel stupid."
That's not just a feeling.
quote: "Who was the first Seeker, the King's idiot son who wanted to play Quidditch but couldn't understand the rules?" Actually, now that Harry thought about it, that seemed like a surprisingly good hypothesis. Put him on a broomstick and tell him to catch the shiny thing...
Ron's face pulled into a scowl. "If you don't like Quidditch, you don't have to make fun of it!"
Entirely true.
quote: And it's not that I hate this Ron guy," Harry said, "I just, just..." Harry searched for words.
"Don't see any reason for him to exist?" offered Draco.
posted
Ok, the last one is not Harry, that's Yudkowsky speaking. Later on Harry thinks, "In what weird alternative universe would that girl not be Sorted into Ravenclaw? If Hermione Granger didn't go to Ravenclaw then there was no good reason for Ravenclaw House to exist." This is not Harry being Harry, this is Yudkowsky breaking the fourth wall and being snarky about the canon.
In the first one I don't quite see the obnoxiety. Harry talks like that all the time. When Ron's too slow to keep up, he uses smaller words. This is courtesy, to assume that the people you meet are your equals until they demonstrate otherwise.
And in the second one, I grant you he's telling Ron to re-examine some fundamental assumptions of his life and not being too gentle about it, but eh, somehow I just can't see that as so dreadful a crime. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
That the author shares the disdain that he bestowed upon Harry's character does not mitigate it. In the first one, what Harry is thinking reflects his contempt. And of course not a crime, just characteristic of what I find unlikeable.
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quote:Bumped for Rakeesh, some cultural thing I'm not aware of?
Well, from things I've seen on documentaries - thankfully I have no direct personal experience with Klansmen - the difference is that whites who don't toe the religious and political line (Christian and conservative, specifically) are still white, but they're 'traitors' somehow.
quote:Quite so, I'm aware of some quite intelligent people who are really terrible speakers or explainers. But my question for Rakeesh is this: Given that I dismiss someone as stupid and therefore boring, is it your contention that I actually don't have an estimate of their intelligence? In other words, do I find such people stupid because they are boring, instead of the other way around?
I can't say for sure, but I wasn't saying it goes both ways, that you think boring people are stupid, no.
quote:I guess some stupid people could be entertaining. It's fun to watch goldfish swim around.
Ahh, banter over substance.
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quote:Ok, this is fair enough, I concede the point. But let's have another look at what Harry knows about Ron's thought processes, based on those five or ten minutes' acquaintance.
Harry is definitely an obnoxious jerk to rip apart Ron's favorite sport.
That said, Ron is actually not too unlike Draco in one respect: he is a wizard and has no concept of how different things are for muggles, muggleborn wizards, and wizards raised by muggles. He's in his own world, where not knowing about Quidditch is met with astonishment, like Harry has three heads or something. Break out of your comfort zone, Ron, and realize not everyone grew up around this stuff and takes it for granted.
On the other hand, Harry is in the wizarding world now, and it would do him good to realize that it's up to him to adjust, not the other way around. It's like going to a foreign country and criticizing their customs, calling them quaint, and implying they'd do things our way if they only knew how much better it is to do so.
Harry is just arrogant and elitist, and this is bad, because he isn't taking the time to learn the wizarding world before dumping all over it.
Not all things are equal, and there is plenty about the wizarding world to legitimately criticize, but Harry should shut up and observe for a while before opening his big mouth.
But that wouldn't be nearly as much fun to read.
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posted
Eh. In the end these characters are all 11 years old. I don't know about you, but I for one did not have my current suave sophistication and cosmopolitan outlook when I was eleven, not to mention the subtle tact I display in criticising the fundamental assumptions of other people's lives, and the modest appraisal of my own capabilities - these days I understand that while, yes, I'm very likely to be the smartest person in a given room, there do nonetheless exist a few hundred other humans with my own brainpower, although unfortunately a lot of them had bad diets as kids and grew up to be merely three sigmas above average. I didn't develop these attractive traits until I was at least thirteen. So let's cut the kids some slack, eh?
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: ... - the difference is that whites who don't toe the religious and political line (Christian and conservative, specifically) are still white, but they're 'traitors' somehow.
Oh, other white conservative Christians, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks.
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quote:but I for one did not have my current suave sophistication and cosmopolitan outlook when I was eleven, not to mention the subtle tact I display in criticising the fundamental assumptions of other people's lives
quote:Ok, this is fair enough, I concede the point. But let's have another look at what Harry knows about Ron's thought processes, based on those five or ten minutes' acquaintance.
Harry is definitely an obnoxious jerk to rip apart Ron's favorite sport.
I don't know. I used to be this way a lot as a kid, and I don't think I was an obnoxious jerk. I was just a kid who spoke without thinking, and had a tendency to analyze anything presented to me. Even now, I have to stop the impulse to blurt out "That's stupid!" when a friend says something, well, stupid. The most recent examples that come to mind were when someone said they didn't want to try an iPhone app that monitors your sleep schedule (it's really cool!) because they were afraid of the effects of having their cell phone near their head (cancer or whatever). Or when I contradicted a friend who was claiming to be from middle class India when all statements she's made make it clear she grew up upper class.
The first time I was able to hold my immediate reaction in, and instead point out the research behind cell phones & cancer in a value-neutral way. The second time, I really upset the friend in question by flat-out contradicting her (she was wrong, but she had felt somewhat poor growing up compared to her upper, upper class school friends).
I don't see why an 11-year-old should be expected to know how to be tactful - it's one of those skills you learn growing up, and is definitely not easy for all personality types to learn. I also don't think it's fair or developmentally appropriate to call a little kid an obnoxious jerk for not having yet figured out all the steps of social dance.
(For that matter, I don't think tact is always appropriate. Sometimes people need to be figuratively smacked on the face when they're wrong. The friend in the second anecdote was upset at me at first, but was later glad that I hadn't let her (mentally) get away with ignoring the vast amount of privilege she grew up with and enjoys today. But this probably a discussion for another thread.)
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posted
I've been meaning to post something about the "Harry is Smug" issue that went into a little more depth. I'm not sure I actually have time now (internet is intermittent in my current situation) but here goes.
First, I'm (hopefully obviously) not trying to win the argument "Harry is likeable!" Kmmboots and co. either like him or they don't, and I can't Rationalist™ them into submission. But there are a few specific points I'd like to address.
re: Smugness. There are definitely times when Harry is "smug," but the word is getting thrown around a lot in places where it doesn't really fit. Which isn't that big a deal, but for some reason bugs me. Harry is smug when he first meets Hermione. He has a cocky, confident air about him the entire time. He's not smug when he's talking to Ron. Thinking that you're right and another person is wrong isn't the same as smugness. Saying it out loud bluntly may be rude, but that's not the same thing. Dictionary.com says "smug" means "contentedly confident of one's ability, superiority, or correctness; complacent." Harry isn't arguing from a position of complacency, he's giving an out-loud-gut-reaction without thinking to a ludicrous set of rules.
Also worth noting is that the author's "disdain" for Ron has nothing to do with his intelligence, it has to do with his value as a character. Ron adds essentially nothing to the plot of Harry Potter other than owning Scabbers and being Harry's token best friend. I think there IS some value in showing that a hero can have friends who don't end up significant to the saving the of the world, but are still good people you can rely on. But I don't begrudge the author for feeling like Ron was a waste of time. Hell, Neville ends up being more significant than Ron.
The other thing is that in almost every situation wherein Harry's mannerisms are rude or arrogant, he almost always realizes it a few chapters later. The story is chock full of Harry constantly seeing how socially inept he is in hindsight. McGonagall warns him to think before he speaks, otherwise he's going to go through life without many friends. So yes, Harry IS supposed to be unlikeable, and is it's a major plot point and source of character development. The issues he goes through are real things that hyper-nerdy kids have to deal with. I can understand why it's offputting for people who don't see themselves in him so much. But for hypernerdy readers, this is great, because we rarely get to see POV characters where these issues are really dealt with seriously without just being played for laughs.
As for being "compassionate," I think Harry has shown plenty of emotional connection with people he has reason to be emotionally connected to. After merely a few days of school, that basically boils down to his parents and Professor McGonagall. He has plenty of reason NOT to like Draco, and while he may become friends with Hermione later there's nothing wrong with that taking more than 7 days.
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posted
Don't you think that being so sure that your firstassessment of a game that you have never seen played and in fact have only just heard about is so certain to be more correct than that of a whole society that you can afford open ridicule indicates a certain confidence in one's superiority?
And I think that you missed a huge part of what the books had to say. The fact that Harry forms an emotional bond with Ron, that he can form a bond with someone so "insignificant", is key to why Harry succeeds. That is what Harry has that Voldemort doesn't.
It is, btw, possible to be "hyper-nerdy" without acting like an ass.
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quote: Ron adds essentially nothing to the plot of Harry Potter other than owning Scabbers and being Harry's token best friend.
This is true. Ron adds little to the plot.
However, he adds a great deal to the development of Harry's character, and to the emotional impact of the book for many people.
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quote:And I think that you missed a huge part of what the books had to say <about Ron>
I'd like to restate this point:
quote:I think there IS some value in showing that a hero can have friends who don't end up significant to the saving the of the world, but are still good people you can rely on. But I don't begrudge the author for feeling like Ron was a waste of time. Hell, Neville ends up being more significant than Ron.
I know Ron adds to Harry's character development. But I think it is a valid argument that you could have had a character that accomplished the same character development while also being more meaningful to the overall story.
Random related note: I really liked the 2002 Scooby Doo movie because it took Shaggy, a character who historically had pretty much nothing to offer to the gang, and gave him an actual role - a "spiritual advisor" of sorts to the group. He was still terrible at actually mystery solving but he was the anchor that held the group together and I was glad he got a moment to shine at the end in his own way. While I am not as anti-Ron as the author of this fanfic is, I felt that the few moments at the end where Ron DOES shine (opening the chamber of secrets, freeing the House Elves) felt tacked on instead of a natural growth from some quality that was unique to Ron.
quote:It is, btw, possible to be "hyper-nerdy" without acting like an ass.
I know. I also know that it requires effort and experience, two things that an 11 year old should not be expected to have in spite (or because of) how smart they are.
quote:Don't you think that being so sure that your firstassessment of a game that you have never seen played and in fact have only just heard about is so certain to be more correct than that of a whole society that you can afford open ridicule indicates a certain confidence in one's superiority?
I think it would have been smug (as opposed to rude) if Harry had acted more like he had with Hermione, asking questions that were set up as deliberate traps that he was confident Ron would get wrong, or something like that. I don't really consider a gut reaction to be smug, period. If you are in a foreign country and someone offhandedly mentions how pie throwing contests are the ideal form of government, would you seriously not have a gut reaction of "that's stupid!" even if you were wise enough not to blurt it out?
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quote:It is, btw, possible to be "hyper-nerdy" without acting like an ass.
I know. I also know that it requires effort and experience, two things that an 11 year old should not be expected to have in spite (or because of) how smart they are.
quote:Don't you think that being so sure that your firstassessment of a game that you have never seen played and in fact have only just heard about is so certain to be more correct than that of a whole society that you can afford open ridicule indicates a certain confidence in one's superiority?
I think it would have been smug (as opposed to rude) if Harry had acted more like he had with Hermione, asking questions that were set up as deliberate traps that he was confident Ron would get wrong, or something like that. I don't really consider a gut reaction to be smug, period. If you are in a foreign country and someone offhandedly mentions how pie throwing contests are the ideal form of government, would you seriously not have a gut reaction of "that's stupid!" even if you were wise enough not to blurt it out?
It may take effort and experience. So? I was certainly expected by my parents to make the effort to be at least polite and, well before age 11, had experience in doing this.
Sure, I may have a gut reaction of, "that's stupid" but, in addition to being wise enough not to jump immediately to open ridicule (despite being only "neurotypical") would have the tempering gut reaction of realizing that I may not know everything.
As far as Ron is concerned, even if he never did anything but care for Harry and have Harry care for him, he would be essential to the plot
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posted
I suspect you romanticise your own social skills at age 11. Also, boys deal with these things rather differently than girls, as far as I can tell. Finally, I say again that a neurotypical has no idea what it feels like to be surrounded by stupid, boring people. Imagine that everyone in the world except you and a very few others had Downs' syndrome; I understand that you would do your best to be patient and understanding, but I suggest that you could not help but be rather exasperated.
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posted
Also note that in the proposed scenario, your parents and teachers also have Down Syndrome. You know that they are wrong about many things, which makes figuring out which things they have to teach you are actually valuable a bit tricky.
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posted
Harry's mother has Down's, but his father doesn't. The problem with his father is rather that he's not yet convinced that Harry doesn't have it, and treats him accordingly - love and affection, certainly, but respect for his intellect, no.
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posted
Yes. It must be so frustrating. It is a wonder Harry puts himself through it.
I don't get the impression that Harry in this version is vastly more intelligent than everyone else, just that he has been trained in a way of thinking that they have not.
I had no social skills with my peers at 11. I was generally awkward and unpopular. I was still polite and reasonably kind. This was not usually an advantage. I was probably unlikable for other reasons.
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quote:I don't get the impression that Harry in this version is vastly more intelligent than everyone else, just that he has been trained in a way of thinking that they have not.
He knows what a Logarithm is at age 7, so I don't think training can account for all of it. And aside from which, if you have training which boosts your effective intellect, I'd consider the end result pretty much the same.
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quote:I know Ron adds to Harry's character development. But I think it is a valid argument that you could have had a character that accomplished the same character development while also being more meaningful to the overall story.
I think you're confusing "plot" with "overall story". Character development and emotional impact are very important parts of the overall story.
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posted
see my subsequent post on that. Maybe I need to clarify further, but my point is that while I understand Ron's value to the story, I think he could have been significantly MORE valuable to the story.
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posted
Okay. And Harry in this version doesn't see him as valuable at all.
ETA: Nor, it seems, does the author. That may be because he missed one of the key themes of the original. Another possibility is that the author is going to show that a Rationalist Harry is destined to become a Dark Lord. That would not surprise me as the author seems to slam Rationalism as well.
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posted
First of all, we're still talking about two different kinds of value, second of all, you're still insisting we're supposed to take Harry's statement at face value instead of reading it as the author's own note about a definition of value unrelated to what Harry would have been referring to, third of all, Ron's value is NOT written all over his face in magical letters for all to see, in this story OR the original.
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posted
I am not sure why the author's note would change anything. Are we to pretend that Harry didn't really agree that Ron had no reason to exist?
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posted
We're to assume that he didn't intend it as a declarative, all encompassing statement. In this story, Ron will probably on to become someone else's loyal best friend, but the fact is that he probably WOULDN'T be any particular benefit in this Harry's life, because no matter how loyal you are, if you can't keep up with this Harry's thought process you're really not going to be able to have a genuine friendship. And at the time, Harry had absolutely no reason to assume of all Ron's good qualities existed at the time he made the statement.
(EDIT: Bear in mind it was KoM, not Harry, who said Ron was only useful for janitorial work.)
Second Edit: It's not an issue of "Ron can't keep up with Harry's thought process" (The Weasley Twins aren't quite there either, but I think they will end up being genuine friends.) The issue is that Ron has indicated he particularly does not WANT to look at the world the way Harry does. When nerds challenge each other on facts, they tend to see it as a friendly challenge rather than ridicule.
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posted
That Harry could not be friends with Ron is something I find unlikeable. Those of you with more sympathy for the plight of those who have to suffer folks who are beneath them may find it adorable.
Harry also had no reason to assume Ron's other qualities were lacking.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Yes. It must be so frustrating. It is a wonder Harry puts himself through it.
Can you, perhaps, show that you would do better? Or that it's not a good analogy? I don't quite see how this remark connects with the Down's world I suggest.
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posted
Do better at refraining from showing contempt for lesser beings? Well, clearly I don't have the same opportunity to test myself that Harry and others have. However, to the extent that I fail at this, I am unlikeable and recognize it as a fault.
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posted
Put it another way: take away the Ron issue or a moment, leaving the rest of Harry intact. Would you WANT to be friends with Harry? Likeability is not some inherent binary trait. The issue is compatibility. Not everyone is meant to be friends with everybody.
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