Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality - What if Harry was smarter than Ender? (Page 5)

  This topic comprises 20 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  ...  18  19  20   
Author Topic: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality - What if Harry was smarter than Ender?
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, fair enough.

As a point of curiosity, do you always need a fictional protagonist to be sympathetic to enjoy the fiction, or is it only this particular flaw of Harry's that prevents your enjoyment? Or perhaps I misunderstood; did you read the whole thing, or did you stop at chapter 11? I note in passing that Harry comes to regret his actions in that chapter, demonstrating, presumably, personal growth.

Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
However, to the extent that I fail at this, I am unlikeable and recognize it as a fault.
Again, Harry DOES recognize this and strives to change, which is one of the things about him I like the most.
Posts: 4108 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Ron issue is a symptom of a larger quality of Harry's that I find unlikable. I can't just separate that out; it is a big chuck of who he is.

I might want to be his friend so that he wouldn't hurt me when he became the new Dark Lord. I may find him interesting or even want to befriend him because I feel sorry for him. He wouldn't be someone that I felt I could count on or trust and I wouldn't like him much.
ETA: I am enjoying reading it. (I wrote that early on.) Not having a sympathetic main character is problematic but not always fatal. And Harry could grow out of it. That would be interesting.

Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MightyCow
Member
Member # 9253

 - posted      Profile for MightyCow           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd like to point out that Quiddich is an absurd sport, so even if Harry is less than diplomatic, he's correct.

Quiddich is the Scientology of sports.

Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As a side note, I've had (he name-dropped casually) some forum interactions with the author, who shows some of the same traits you're disliking in Harry. He is so convinced that cryonics will work (or more accurately, that the chance it will work is good enough that signing up is way cheap for what you get) that he has no hesitation in labeling those who haven't signed up as crazy nutjobs. But there's a limit to the gains to be had from showing the respect that neurotypicals demand, so I have some sympathy for his position.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I noted that you might.
Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If you aren't choosing between textbooks and food, then you can afford to sign up your kids for cryonics. I don't know if it's more important than a home without lead paint, or omega-3 fish oil supplements while their brains are maturing, but it's certainly more important than you going to the movies or eating at nice restaurants. That's part of the bargain you signed up for when you became a parent. If you can afford kids at all, you can afford to sign up your kids for cryonics, and if you don't, you are a lousy parent. I'm just back from an event where the normal parents signed their normal kids up for cryonics, and that is the way things are supposed to be and should be, and whatever excuses you're using or thinking of right now, I don't believe in them any more, you're just a lousy parent.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I do note that you are not actually engaging with the arguments, here. I suggest that you probably do not have a strong understanding of why you think cryonics won't work; you are merely applying the good old "sounds weird" heuristic, as in, "I never heered of that, so dere ain't no sich animule". If cryonics does work, if it in fact saves lives at even a 50% rate of success, then wouldn't you consider that rather important? But you're not going to engage in that discussion on a serious level, oh no. Then you might have to admit that people who sound weird actually know what they're talking about. So you point and laugh.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My main issue is that regardless of whether cryonics works or not, there's large swaths of things you could be doing with your money that would benefit the lives of children here, now.
Posts: 4108 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
I do note that you are not actually engaging with the arguments, here. I suggest that you probably do not have a strong understanding of why you think cryonics won't work; you are merely applying the good old "sounds weird" heuristic, as in, "I never heered of that, so dere ain't no sich animule". If cryonics does work, if it in fact saves lives at even a 50% rate of success, then wouldn't you consider that rather important? But you're not going to engage in that discussion on a serious level, oh no. Then you might have to admit that people who sound weird actually know what they're talking about. So you point and laugh.

You're assuming that I care to engage with whether or not cryopreservation will ever bear fruit. Given that he does not actually possess magical knowledge that it will, he sounds like a dolt by dismissing any notion that any parent who doesn't bother with the cryopreservation gamble could ever possibly be anything other than a lousy parent.

Guy's a fanatic. It's hilarious.

Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
You're assuming that I care to engage with whether or not cryopreservation will ever bear fruit.
No, I'm saying that your reason for not caring to do so are bad ones.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Eh...perhaps not a fanatic. Maybe just someone who is taking some comfort in a new kind of Pascal's Wager.
Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:
You're assuming that I care to engage with whether or not cryopreservation will ever bear fruit.
No, I'm saying that your reason for not caring to do so are bad ones.
I'll re-emphasize that whether I care or not, it has nothing to do with why I'm laughing at that paragraph. Sorry!
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I observe that cryonics are not vulnerable to the well-known rebuttals of Pascal's Wager; you cannot very well argue that it is equally likely that going for cryonics will shorten your lifetime by as much as it might extend it. That said, I do believe he is a bit too emotionally committed to his current solution to the problem of death, probably due to the death of his brother, which affected him deeply. Speaking of caring.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Eh...perhaps not a fanatic. Maybe just someone who is taking some comfort in a new kind of Pascal's Wager.

The analogue: "No parent who does not force their child to pray to god just in case is a lousy parent."
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That is not analogous. There are rational reasons for believing cryonics might work. Having carefully weighed the evidence, I come down on the other side of it from Mr Yudkowsky, but it is a point on which rational men can differ.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
I observe that cryonics are not vulnerable to the well-known rebuttals of Pascal's Wager; you cannot very well argue that it is equally likely that going for cryonics will shorten your lifetime by as much as it might extend it. That said, I do believe he is a bit too emotionally committed to his current solution to the problem of death, probably due to the death of his brother, which affected him deeply. Speaking of caring.

You might note that I am not the one who thinks it is funny or fanatical. Perhaps a little sad.
Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
I observe that cryonics are not vulnerable to the well-known rebuttals of Pascal's Wager ...

Indeed.

Cryonics as an issue seems much more similar to the problem of whether one should pay for insurance premiums when one is forced to deal with a highly unreliable insurer (counterparty risk, I suppose).

Posts: 7469 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seatarsprayan
Member
Member # 7634

 - posted      Profile for Seatarsprayan   Email Seatarsprayan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would just like to note that the first google result for "neurotypical" indicates it is used to describe people without autism. So "King of Men"'s use of it to make a distinction between himself and others indicates he is autistic. This is very humorous to me.

Yeah, the author of this fic is a transhumanist fanatic, and therefore, in my view, not rational at all. But it doesn't stop me loving the fiction.

Posts: 449 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I carefully noted, when I first used the term, that I was using it in a nonstandard way. Of course, I should have known better than to expect a neurotypical to pay attention to what I actually said, when there was an opportunity for mockery and othering.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Try using smaller words.
Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's both funny and fanatical.
Posts: 36938 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's just like you neurotypicals
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Try using smaller words.

As I said.
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Eh...perhaps not a fanatic. Maybe just someone who is taking some comfort in a new kind of Pascal's Wager.

I vote for both.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seatarsprayan
Member
Member # 7634

 - posted      Profile for Seatarsprayan   Email Seatarsprayan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Of course, I should have known better
Using "neurotypical" the way you did makes it an epithet. That comes across as both pompous and pathetic, and so mockery is to be expected.
Posts: 449 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah well, looks like I ran into the euphemism treadmill. I was trying to avoid calling anyone the dreaded 'average'. Possibly a record for the speed with which the euphemism came to be perceived as an insult!
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Of course, I should have known better than to expect a neurotypical to pay attention to what I actually said
Gosh, I wonder how it was that this sperg word came to be perceived as an insult so quickly once wielded by KoM.

I really really wonder.

Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MightyCow
Member
Member # 9253

 - posted      Profile for MightyCow           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not only are dumb people boring, but they offend easily.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I swear, those neurotypicals. ho ho ho.
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MightyCow
Member
Member # 9253

 - posted      Profile for MightyCow           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
High five!
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Possibly a record for the speed with which the euphemism came to be perceived as an insult!
Dude. It is an insult, or at least clearly to you. If you dispute that...well, you've done a pretty bad job of communicating in this thread.
Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
Not only are dumb people boring, but they offend easily.

And yet, the non-neuro-typicals sacrifice themselves for us again and again. Interacting with us at great cost to themselves, thinking only of our own good.
Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let us not forget, either, that though there are surface similarities between those who talk about how difficult 'neurotypicals' can be and people who brag about their fighting skill and ability to whip anyone's tail, they're not actually similar at all.
Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
Not only are dumb people boring, but they offend easily.

And yet, the non-neuro-typicals sacrifice themselves for us again and again. Interacting with us at great cost to themselves, thinking only of our own good.
Not at all! That's all part of my master plan to subtly manipulate you into eradicating yourself and making the world safe for thought. I'm sacrificing myself for other non-typicals, which is not at all the same thing!
Posts: 10592 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oooohh. Very impressive. A neurotypical like me would never have been able to plan to eradicate whole masses of people! Wow. Killing people off for the good of the world is often an activity engaged in by non-neurotypicals.

I wonder if that is why I find them unlikeable?

Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, we could go with that option. Or we could go with the much more ego-pleasing option that you don't like such people because you are a seething cauldron of bitterness and envy, or possibly because you are just easily offended.

And that's it in a nutshell, really. Being 'non-neurotypical' doesn't confer any really useful benefits. All it really does is empower other useful traits, such as discipline, imagination, compassion, and motivation. Being 'non-neurotypical' doesn't even protect against some very risky drawbacks, either, such as laziness, hubris, and hypocrisy.

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
lol, y'all lettin KoM troll you guys hard
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*shrug* That depends on if we think he is being entirely silly, or partially serious.
Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For me it depends on whether I am any of those things. [Wink]
Posts: 10614 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am posting in this high quality thread!
Posts: 4108 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am posting with these neurotypical plebes, sperg sperg sperg
Posts: 14170 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MightyCow
Member
Member # 9253

 - posted      Profile for MightyCow           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The best part about discussing neurotypical plebes is that they don't know what a neurotypical plebe is [Wink]
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
lol, y'all lettin KoM troll you guys hard
I've been saying that for years.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Back to the original topic: Ch. 25 was awful -- the first half, anyway. But 26 made up for it.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, 26 was pretty rad, definitely. I like that Harry is aware, on some level, of what's going on. When the big reveals happen later, and Harry realizes whatever Quirrel has been planning to manipulate him into doing, he definitely won't be able to say, "I didn't know!" no matter how far down the rabbit hole he's gone.

And was there ever really any other end possible for the beetle once it crossed Voldemort, particularly when it did so alone, and in private?

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Awful how? I mean, it wasn't my favorite chapter ever but I didn't see anything wrong with it.
Posts: 4108 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Harry's shockingly poor grasp of genetics is exceeded only by the author's. And his notion of a genetic key (oddly like the ATA gene in Stargate, as was pointed out to me) simply makes no sense at all.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Doesn't the author point out that Harry IS wrong? Or is the author's explanation of why he's wrong really that terrible?

I think Harry's getting a little ahead of himself in terms of theorizing, but he also seemed aware that he only barely understands the problem.

Posts: 4108 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Or is the author's explanation of why he's wrong really that terrible?

Yes.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 20 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  ...  18  19  20   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2