quote:Recently there were reports in the news stating that the Buenos Aries National Wildlife Refuge was closed. This information is not correct. In early 2006, a small section of land (about 3% of the refuge) along the border was closed to visitation. However, no new restrictions are in place and the majority of the refuge remains open. Today, we are seeing a decline in violent activity in the southern most area thanks to ongoing cooperation between the US Fish and Wildlife Service and US Customs and Border Protection. The Refuge will reopen the lands along the border at such time that it is determined to be safe for visitors.
Like I showed this to someone else who was riding the outrage train on Obama over this one and I swear there was an audible gear-grinding TCHUNK as his brain halted and went full astern from talking about how this makes obama terrible, to spontaneously deciding that it is okay that this happened, and here are several reasons why this is a reasonable move, as, you see, it happened under Bush.
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It's very strange to live somewhere where people just don't care about these sorts of things. Maybe it's just that I can't listen to conservative radio over here.
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quote:Originally posted by Parkour: Like I showed this to someone else who was riding the outrage train on Obama over this one and I swear there was an audible gear-grinding TCHUNK as his brain halted and went full astern from talking about how this makes obama terrible, to spontaneously deciding that it is okay that this happened, and here are several reasons why this is a reasonable move, as, you see, it happened under Bush.
I watched this happen. And it continued on Facebook. It was hilarious.
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To be fair, she was just quoting something out of the clip...which is WHY we're making fun of Fox News.
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A less charitable person might say that a country which doesn't mind when this happens to others kind of deserves this.
As far as I'm concerned, all you people without Native American blood are renting the land from me and my Native brothers and sisters. Pay up, or GTFO.
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Even if she believes it, the fact that it is a Fox News quote takes it out of the trolling category. Also, the fact that everyone knows her probably does that too.
You can be mad at her for sensationalism though. Sensationalism is good for rallying people who are already convinced. Not so much for discussion. I hate the sensationalism too, but it doesn't make her a troll.
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quote:To be fair, she was just quoting something out of the clip.
Fine, so she should come back and admit that Fox News was full of crap. Perhaps even apologize for the misinformation?
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If you're looking for vindication, and justice - then sure. Have her come back and admit that sensationalism is a bad way to converse with people who aren't like minded.
If you haven't noticed, Lisa is only sensational and rude when she feels she's in hostile territory. She's a smart woman, she is fully confident in her views, and she thinks that the best way to deal with hostility is to show you that she's tougher than you - no matter what you throw at her, she'll be more sarcastic, more smug and confident than you could ever be.
If you ignore all that, treat her kindly and speak to her ideas - she drops all that hostility.
So if you were a strategist, you'd likely NOT make her come back and apologize.
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quote:If you ignore all that, treat her kindly and speak to her ideas - she drops all that hostility.
This is not true. If you avoid speaking to certain ideas she refuses to speak to in even tones, she drops hostility, but if you try to say things on certain topics, no matter how reasonably phrased, she often becomes insulting and abrasive.
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I am with fugu on this one. I don't mind Lisa most of the time, but that is because I don't even consider what she says about certain topics any more.
I gave up bashing my head against brick walls for Lent a few years back. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mucus - "that" = take her out of the trolling category.
The fact that it is a quote means she didn't MAKE UP sensational and false material to lure us into a thread. The fact that it was on Fox News, and that she provided the clip, shows that she was using a major news outlet, albeit, sensationally, to make a certain point.
fugu - I don't know how to respond. I don't think that's true, especially if Lisa can tell you are being sincere. She's not insane - she has a rationale to her feelings.
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I am with fugu on this one. I don't mind Lisa most of the time, but that is because I don't even consider what she says about certain topics any more.
I gave up bashing my head against brick walls for Lent a few years back.
If at first you don't succeed, and you've tried multiple times, maybe it's time to try something new.
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Who said she was insane? I only said she reacts rudely. Sane people do that all the time.
Short list of topics she frequently erupts on even when discussion is civil:
Evidence for evolution. That palestinians might have a right to stay in homes in areas she feels Israel should control. That some rights might take precedence over the right to private property.
edit: and most people have given up trying to discuss those with her, following your advice about stopping from bashing their heads against a wall.
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fugu - my point, about her insanity, was this:
I don't understand, how on a forum about Orson Scott Card, author of Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind, people could be so not willing to be smart when talking to their opponent in a discussion.
::shrug:: Lisa reminds me of Novinha a little. I mean, Novinha and her family - there is a way to talk to people who are different than you, even if they come off abrasive.
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Yep, not to talk about things that get them riled up. Notice how no one could talk to Novinha about certain topics without setting her off (until she mellowed later, of course). The right solution wasn't to talk to her differently, it was to not talk to her about certain issues. I generally follow that route.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Mucus - "that" = take her out of the trolling category.
The fact that it is a quote means she didn't MAKE UP sensational and false material to lure us into a thread. The fact that it was on Fox News, and that she provided the clip, shows that she was using a major news outlet, albeit, sensationally, to make a certain point.
I will point out beforehand that I didn't necessarily say she was in the trolling category. You seem to independently making the case that she isn't, which is fine and I'll roll with that. But just to make that clear.
There's nothing in there that conflicts with the basic definition of a troll. Especially in the context of Hatrack, its "subject trolls" are people we already know very well.
The fact that the quote is from FoxNews doesn't really affect it either since FoxNews makes a business of putting out inflammatory and exaggerated material, or as Samprimary puts it outrage-mining.
For example, there's no particular reason that I would refrain from saying Blayne is trolling if he decided one day to post inflammatory articles from Pravda to get a rise out of people.
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Okay. I'm glad you have a classification system worked out.
What I'm trying to do is point out that discussions should have specific aims. I'm not sure what your aim is when you classify someone as a troll, other than to give up on developing meaningful conversation with them.
I'm trying to say meaningful conversation with Lisa is still possible.
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Again, while I personally have a classification scheme, I don't often use the word "troll." That was something you picked up from Xavier in this conversation.
My initial question was simply about your statement that says that it means something of import that the quote was from FoxNews. I'm just questioning why that should make any difference at all (unless it's a joke).
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
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Pravda nowadays has quite a bit of villain decay about it focusing on the paranormal and other tabloidy crap.
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To me, it's less sensational that she was quoting from a mainstream new source than providing her own spin on a new source. I thought that counted for something.
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I will say that my initial post was based on a perception of Lisa's posting history on this subject that does not appear to have been accurate upon review. I confused a couple other threads with ridiculous Obama claims as having come from her.
I'd still love to have someone actually come back and admit they were wrong in one of these threads, but I was mistaken in thinking Lisa was a repeat offender in this regard.
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I simply refuse to take anything Lisa posts seriously. If you treat it all as a horrible, sometimes tasteless black comedy, you don't have to agree or disagree. You don't have to try to find truth value in propaganda. You can decide if you find it interesting or not as an art piece, and you don't have to confront what would be, if you treated the posts seriously, the amorality of her often sociopathic attacks.
That's the only way I can participate and remain within the TOS.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: To me, it's less sensational that she was quoting from a mainstream new source than providing her own spin on a new source. I thought that counted for something.
Reflexive objection to FoxNews as mainstream, but since you're posting from the US I guess thats reasonable.
Yes, I suppose it counts for something that she posted something misleading from FoxNews rather than something misleading from, say, bizarro Israeli youtube. But it doesn't mean much when it comes to the discussion of troll. I bet I could troll *hard* using purely quotes from FoxNews.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I simply refuse to take anything Lisa posts seriously. If you treat it all as a horrible, sometimes tasteless black comedy, you don't have to agree or disagree. You don't have to try to find truth value in propaganda. You can decide if you find it interesting or not as an art piece, and you don't have to confront what would be, if you treated the posts seriously, the amorality of her often sociopathic attacks.
That's the only way I can participate and remain within the TOS.
That's pretty sensational of you to say.
I don't buy it. I think that you can find the value in coming to see the other side, even if it takes more effort on your part than the other person puts in, and even if you're on solid moral ground and they are amoral. Besides, you might even be wrong to judge her, not having truly walked in her shoes.
That's why we like bad guys in movies whom you can identify with. They aren't evil and crazy - they went through some stuff, that you can imagine that if you went through, you might end up where they are now.
Mutual understand is the first step to conflict resolution.
What's interesting about most social communities is that we surround ourselves with people we agree with, we spout our ideas, rail against the morons, the atheists who are selfish, the theists who are delusional, the democrats who are naive, the bible-toting republicans, the land grabbing Israelis, the terrorist Palestinians, that we condemn ourselves to perpetual conflict.
Fox News is a social community that is sensationalist and gathers only like-minded individuals under its banner to fortify themselves in conflict.
Hatrack is an open forum where there are many individuals of different minds and different backgrounds. Instead of using this forum as a rally point to find people who are like-minded, why not try, in a safe environment, online, free of any real risk, to engage in mutual understanding and conflict resolution?
We're online often enough that we'd better get along.
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quote:That's why we like bad guys in movies whom you can identify with. They aren't evil and crazy - they went through some stuff, that you can imagine that if you went through, you might end up where they are now.
So what you're saying is that Lisa really needs a Start of Darkness sequence to make other Hatrackers sympathise with her?
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quote:That's why we like bad guys in movies whom you can identify with. They aren't evil and crazy - they went through some stuff, that you can imagine that if you went through, you might end up where they are now.
So what you're saying is that Lisa really needs a Start of Darkness sequence to make other Hatrackers sympathise with her?
Wouldn't you read/watch it?
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I've had my share of fights with Lisa, though it's been quite awhile since we've really gotten into it. I think the reason why is that we've both chosen not to engage as heavily as we used to.
Here's the problem with what you're saying Armoth: The underlying basis of your philosophy there is mutual understanding respect, yes? I get along just fine with Lisa in a lot of different threads on a lot of different topics, but there are two or three hot-button issues that mutual understanding and respect are impossible to achieve with her. Israel is one of them, though her and I have come to recent bouts of agreement on that too, which while somewhat spooky, is also something of a relief after years of fighting. Obama is another. Often she'll engage you in point for point discussions, but just as often, she'll simply respond by calling you disgusting, or sick, or denouncing you in emphatic terms for even considering the opposing view point. You can't reach understanding, let alone respect, with her tendency to try and take you out at the knees with character attacks.
I think that's where MightyCow is coming from. I don't apply it to everything she says, but on the topics that really get her riled up, laughing her off is preferable to taking her seriously, because taking her seriously takes the conversation to dark places often times that are seldom, if ever, productive. And productivity should be the goal of any enlightened discussion.
I've stated here many times before my belief in confronting and understanding opposing points of view. I like debating. I like testing my own ideas against opposing views. Sometimes I even like to be proven wrong. I change my mind about things, maybe not frequently, but not often enough to where I know that I always leave room in an argument for strong evidence and a well-reasoned argument from the other side to change my mind. But this isn't about any of those things.
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quote:To me, it's less sensational that she was quoting from a mainstream new source than providing her own spin on a new source. I thought that counted for something.
Did anyone in the interview or the interview headline actually say
quote:Obama Gives Back Major Strip of AZ to Mexico
I don't remember them saying that specifically. Wouldn't that count as her putting her own spin on a news source?
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Armoth: Lisa once told me that she hoped my loved ones would be the victims of a suicide bombing, so that I could watch them die slowly from shrapnel coated with rat poison.
I will never reach a mutual understanding with someone who could say that. The only way I can deal with that is to pretend that she's just a literary character pretending to be pure evil.
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quote:That's why we like bad guys in movies whom you can identify with. They aren't evil and crazy - they went through some stuff, that you can imagine that if you went through, you might end up where they are now.
So what you're saying is that Lisa really needs a Start of Darkness sequence to make other Hatrackers sympathise with her?
Wouldn't you read/watch it?
Maybe so, but only in order to make the eventual comeuppance and utter defeat all the sweeter. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Armoth, I think there might be a fundamental disconnect from how you view Lisa, and how most of the rest of us view her.
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Lyrhawn: I'm not so sure, I tend to gravitate towards many of the things he is saying about Lisa.
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The thread title is inaccurate. Obama insists immigration law is a federal issue while attacking Arizona for it's laws. The title of this thread should be, "Obama gives Arizona to Mexico".
The federal government attacks a state for infringing on enforcement of federal law....the feds don't enforce. Kinda like the Coast Guard turning away oil collecting barges sent out by Louisiana. How dare Jindal give up waiting for federal approval or action. How dare Louisiana do something about oil spilling onto it's shores,....that's a federal responsibility.
When the feds ignore their responsibilities, they attack the states for picking up the slack. I'm surprised the border patrol isn't interfering with Arizona State Patrol for stepping on federal turf. Unmowed turf.
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mal: Do you really think Obama via the coast guard told the tankers to cease and desist for 24 hours before permitting the tankers to go back?
And the issue was safety for those on the tankers, you know, the sorts of workers who were on the oil rig when it blew up because safety was neglected.
I'm just as frustrated as you are about the border situation in Arizona, California, New Mexico, etc. I wager we have very different views on what should be done regarding those who are already here and want to come here. But we've already got a thread about the oil spill, could we perhaps try to maintain the semblance of organization by trying to keep like news stories with their most appropriate thread? TIA.
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I don't fall in line with Fox News's coverage of Obama. I think blaming the president for every negative thing that happens, questioning all his motives, and fabricating scandals out of thin air is a waste of precious time and emotion.
When this happened during Bush's presidency, with as much vigor, it was just as infuriating.
Can't wait for this country to mature enough to realize that the president is not omnipotent, not our daddy, and not responsible for micro-managing the entire country/world.
Getting back on track, as for the Arizona immigration problems, I feel like this issue is a bit like the Gulf oil spill. Plug the leak first, then deal with the problem of illegal immigrants.
In my opinion, give them amnesty, provided they don't have a criminal record. Would love for the drug-traffickers and gang members to be sent back into Mexico for good. (Hence, why this leak needs to be fixed.) Would also be happy for those hard workers getting paid under the table to become full-fledged citizens with decent pay wages.
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I am with fugu on this one. I don't mind Lisa most of the time, but that is because I don't even consider what she says about certain topics any more.
I gave up bashing my head against brick walls for Lent a few years back.
If at first you don't succeed, and you've tried multiple times, maybe it's time to try something new.
Yep...like filtering out opinions from people who aren't rational when discussing specific topics.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The thread title is inaccurate. Obama insists immigration law is a federal issue while attacking Arizona for it's laws. The title of this thread should be, "Obama gives Arizona to Mexico".
Now THAT made me laugh. Thank God for comic relief! Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: ::Frustrated sigh::
Frustration at Lisa's antics, or at your inability to defend them to some extent? She really does do these things.
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Lisa has always frustrated me. But I guess I'm frustrated at the community's willingness to try something new. Or maybe frustrated because at a certain point, I don't expect the community to try something new.
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As I've said, been there, done that. You're not asking for something new, but something old, that was tried and discarded.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Lisa has always frustrated me. But I guess I'm frustrated at the community's willingness to try something new.
I've been around. This community, in its various iterations, has been infinitely more willing to engage. I'm not kidding. Lisa had it better here than she would have in most places, and many, many, many parts of the community have extended respectful argument towards her, and tried plenty of these new things. This is not 'something new' you're asking the community to try. You're essentially sad people had the sense to give up on avenues of discussion which are completely and perpetually unfruitful and only evoke unnecessary hostility, arrogance, and dishonest dialogue from Lisa.
idk. take it from fugu. he's watched and participated in the process far longer and saner than I have.
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