posted
Redlettermedia should be required watching for anyone who does not understand why the prequel was an abomination.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Lyrhawn, your position is kind of muting itself. We've gone from
1. He's a good writer
to
2. There's a story
to
3. Okay it's not his best work but he is financially successful
.. this is getting there. The Transformers series is a huge box office success. The writing is garbage. The plot is stupid. The director is horrible.
I'm not saying you should be unable to enjoy the movies! I had an enjoyable enough time at III (though I could absolutely not enjoy I and II).
My point is that the idea that George Lucas is a good writer is wrong. He is a bad writer, and all three of the prequel movies are, essentially, terribly written. We are stuck at an odd impasse because you wish to continue to make the case that there's still a good story while purposely keeping yourself from confronting the data that shows otherwise -- a sort of an Ignorance is Bliss approach -- but, if you wish to keep an honest dialogue over the quality of George Lucas as a writer, then, I think you need to watch my creepy incompetent serial murderer friend talk about the Star Wars prequel.
I don't think I ever said he was a good writer. In fact, I've said numerous times that he is absolutely awful at writing dialogue, at the very least.
I think he's great at coming up with stories and concepts. I think he would be much better off churning out ideas that other people write the scripts for. If I didn't say that part specifically in this thread, I know I've said it in others.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Just a quick note to neo-dragon. I did indeed answer "the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria." As I pointed out, genetic transfer only transfers the DNA. Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell. I cited mitochondria as a familiar example--an obvious one, since George Lucas probably had this in the back of his mind when he made up the ludicrous midichlorians. Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin. Unless they fall like cosmic rays striking the fertilized zygote from outside. (Never mind then how they would become more concentrated in one individual than in another.) But no one has suggested that.
So if midichlorians are the cause of the "force" being stronger in some people than in others, this HAS to mean that the ability to be "strong in the force" could only be transferred through females, and there must have been a "Jedi Eve."
I see now why some of you do not get the stunningly overwhelming argument against evolution that I have presented in the past concerning the genetic impossibility of randam mutation or any other natural processes EVER resulting in one species developing into another more advanced and complex species. One lunatic even asserted that the human genome is "really not all that complex." You basically do not understand genetics. You must have slept through discussions of Gregor Mendel in biology class. All of which serves to underscore the basic fact that evolution theory is bad science.
[ June 27, 2010, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin.
Midichlorians are tiny, space-dwelling bacteria who live on the Force, and will seek out -- from across the galaxy -- and dwell inside strong Force users. Done!
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quote:You basically do not understand genetics.
Heh. Ron, I solemnly guarantee you that I know more about genetics than you do. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Just a quick note to neo-dragon. I did indeed answer "the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria." As I pointed out, genetic transfer only transfers the DNA. Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell. I cited mitochondria as a familiar example--an obvious one, since George Lucas probably had this in the back of his mind when he made up the ludicrous midichlorians. Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin. Unless they fall like cosmic rays striking the fertilized zygote from outside. (Never mind then how they would become more concentrated in one individual than in another.) But no one has suggested that.
So if midichlorians are the cause of the "force" being stronger in some people than in others, this HAS to mean that the ability to be "strong in the force" could only be transferred through females, and there must have been a "Jedi Eve."
I see now why some of you do not get the stunningly overwhelming argument against evolution that I have presented in the past concerning the genetic impossibility of randam mutation or any other natural processes EVER resulting in one species developing into another more advanced and complex species. One lunatic even asserted that the human genome is "really not all that complex." You basically do not understand genetics. You must have slept through discussions of Gregor Mendel in biology class. All of which serves to underscore the basic fact that evolution theory is bad science.
I don't think you realize that midiclorians are fiction from a fictional galaxy that is not only far away but also far into our past, and thus alien and if they're alien then they probaby evolved in whatever fictional way that makes sense in an internally consistent way with the Star Wars Mythos.
Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who etc all have horrible science whenever science is used its always barely disguised technobabble for the sake of moving the plot and story.
Thus they are whatever word of god says they are, if Lucus says there isn't a Jedi Eve then there isn't one, no matter how much you try with your pseudo science to try to justify it.
(JBlade edit. Sorry Blayne, don't resort to personal attacks please.)
posted
My interpretation was that midichorians don't "live in the Force," they just feed off it, so they'll reproduce a lot faster in an individual who is strong in the Force."
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
If you look up midichlorians on the star wars wiki, they have multiple sources showing how midichlorians are isomorphic, sentient, symbiotic life forms that exist absolutely everywhere there is life and are in fact required for life to exist.
And that they are not passed on in a manner similar to or like mitochondria.
Like seriously. Hey Ron! even if we had no data on how midichlorians work (f****** midiclorians, how do they work? - Insane Clown Posse) we would be right about how there is no supposed requirement that they work like mitochondria. ON TOP OF THAT we have official canonized information stating that they work very differently from mitochondria, so you are wrong to a level not before conceived.
Even on issues as trivial as whether or not Lucas's stupid little microscopic fairies transmit between living organisms, is it possible for you to admit being wrong? I'm just curious!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Just a quick note to neo-dragon. I did indeed answer "the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria." As I pointed out, genetic transfer only transfers the DNA. Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell. I cited mitochondria as a familiar example--an obvious one, since George Lucas probably had this in the back of his mind when he made up the ludicrous midichlorians. Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin.
Midi-chlorians were intelligent[2] microscopic life-forms that served as organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited[1][3] and comprising a collective consciousness amongst themselves.[2] Present in all life,[1] midi-chlorians were isomorphic on every world that supported life.[3] Midi-chlorians, in fact, were necessary for life to exist.
Sounds pretty identical to mitochondria. Or, wait. Not.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
So, Tom, you are saying that being strong in the force is the result of something like catching a cosmic cold. Sounds as good as any of the illogical pseudo-science masquerading as science fiction in the Lucas universe. However, when did Luke catch his father's cold, since Anakin never even saw his son or knew he had been born? Never mind. Like I said, I prefer to ignore all of Lucas' discussions of midichlorians. It improves the story to pretend he never said any of that. I am amazed at the persistence of some Lucas fans in trying to make sense out of the senseless.
Sam, I do not have to admit I was wrong when I was not. And Blayne, your pompous and insulting remarks have no weight as logical arguments--nor do your attempts to falsely describe history or wrongly describe my arguments have any weight. You are really saying nothing, just making loud, rude noises. This has always characterized your immature kind of debate techniques. You must feel very frustrated that you have never been able to factually, logically refute any of my arguments, EVER.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:So, Tom, you are saying that being strong in the force is the result of something like catching a cosmic cold.
Well, no. I'm saying that being strong in the Force might be completely unrelated to the midichlorians in your blood, except insofar as midichlorians might be attracted to strong Force users and thus might serve as indicators of strong Force ability.
quote:You must feel very frustrated that you have never been able to factually, logically refute any of my arguments, EVER.
Who would you say on this board has factually and logically refuted any of your arguments?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, a few would claim they have tried, but none have succeeded. Of course, if you ask THEM, they will lie about it. They seem to care more about scoring self-awarded points in debate, than in finding out real truth. I am not talking about midichlorians, which of course is a trivial topic to begin with.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: So, Tom, you are saying that being strong in the force is the result of something like catching a cosmic cold. Sounds as good as any of the illogical pseudo-science masquerading as science fiction in the Lucas universe. However, when did Luke catch his father's cold, since Anakin never even saw his son or knew he had been born? Never mind. Like I said, I prefer to ignore all of Lucas' discussions of midichlorians. It improves the story to pretend he never said any of that. I am amazed at the persistence of some Lucas fans in trying to make sense out of the senseless.
Sam, I do not have to admit I was wrong when I was not. And Blayne, your pompous and insulting remarks have no weight as logical arguments--nor do your attempts to falsely describe history or wrongly describe my arguments have any weight. You are really saying nothing, just making loud, rude noises. This has always characterized your immature kind of debate techniques. You must feel very frustrated that you have never been able to factually, logically refute any of my arguments, EVER.
If this was the case then you wouldn't have responded, that you have responded proves that I stuck a nerve, that your arguments are false, you by your own faith are bearing false witness and have thus sinned, but for as long as you've convinced yourself and rationalized away the inherent flaws with your argument as being for the best who cares right?
posted
Blayne: Just as the religious agree not to proselyte here, those who do not believe in a religion are asked to not disparage other people's religious convictions. You are dancing around that line, please stop.
Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell.
Does not equal this:
quote:Midi-chlorians were intelligent[2] microscopic life-forms that served as organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited[1][3] and comprising a collective consciousness amongst themselves.[2] Present in all life,[1] midi-chlorians were isomorphic on every world that supported life.
See?
Ron! You said this!
quote: the Jedi powers could only be transferred by women, since midichlorians obviously are similar to, if not the same thing as, mitichondria
The statement is clearly not true! All the data is staring you in the face! You can look at it on wookiepedia! It is even cited! With references! You were wrong!
The only question remaining is if this is something you can admit!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Sam, this is getting beyond silly. But about this statement you quoted: "organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited"
What does that mean, if not that it is SOMETHING within the CYTOPLASM of the cell? Nothing in the cytoplasm of males can be transmitted to offspring. Offspring can only get what is in the cytoplasm of the female, because that is the egg cell (fertilized zygote) inwhich they grow. All they get from the male is genetic DNA. No "organelles within all living cells" can be transmitted from the male.
How could I make this any clearer?
Wookiepedia obviously is not an authority on scientific correctness.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yes! And for reasons you are ironically unaware of.
quote:What does that mean, if not that it is SOMETHING within the CYTOPLASM of the cell? Nothing in the cytoplasm of males can be transmitted to offspring. Offspring can only get what is in the cytoplasm of the female, because that is the egg cell (fertilized zygote) inwhich they grow. All they get from the male is genetic DNA. No "organelles within all living cells" can be transmitted from the male.
What it means is that as an independently sentient entity that exists within all living cells, it does not have to follow the prescribed methodology within any given organism (Example given: human beings in real life) to propagate itself to the offspring of that life.
There's also specific counterevidence to your claim.
1. There are a number of species in the star wars universe that reproduce asexually or otherwise do not possess a 'female' gender. None of them have matrilineal descent of force sensitivity or lucas's magical force midichlorian fairies, so the statement 'the jedi powers could only be transferred by women' is as false as "midiclorians obviously are similar to, if not the same thing as, mitichondria(sp)"
2. Midichlorians can actually independently generate life, and therefore can impart force sensitivity to beings that are descended from nothing. This is different from 'could only be transferred by women.'
3. "Nothing in the cytoplasm of males can be transmitted to offspring." does not account for fantasy fairy molecules which transmit magicalness to fantasy people in a fantasy alien world dreamed up as fiction. There is no rule that says that force sensitivity cannot be transferred by male lineage, since 'occupation of the cytoplasm of the cell (in species that even have cytoplasms)' is not the required mode of transmission for a fairy fantasy cell that can transmit however it wants, from psychosomatic transmission to general clustering via all organic material to sperm transmission to clicking their heels three times.
etcetera.
quote:How could I make this any clearer?
Clarity is not at issue. you have presented your wrong position very clearly. It is very wrong.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Wookiepedia obviously is not an authority on scientific correctness.
And midichlorians, being a thing which does not exist, is not a scientifically correct object that is required to follow a scientifically correct method of transmission!
And you are obviously not an authority on how midichlorians transmit force sensitivity between beings!
posted
I can accept FTL drives in science fiction. I can accept antigravity in science fiction. I can accept teleportation in science fiction. Those things all hypothesize physically valid science yet to be discovered, and typically appeal to higher dimensions and esoteric consequences of quantum physics.
But reproduction, whether sexually or asexually, is well understood and established science. Science fiction cannot contradict well understood and established science, without hypothesizing some physically valid advanced science that provides reasonable exceptions. All discussions of midichlorians are fairy tales, incompatible with science by any stretch. It is not even good fantasy, because it could not work in any world, even a fantasy world. It is not self-consistent.
Sometimes I have been able to sense a future event or choice. I once called a coin-toss correctly 22 times in a row--and I felt sure of what I was calling, except for the last time, when the coin bounced out of the tosser's hand and fell onto the floor. But I do not know how I was able to do it. To the best of my knowledge, I possess no midichlorians. (Nor do they possess me.)
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
OK Raymond. Then Star Wars is not science fiction at all, and should have dispensed with the starships and spacesuits and blasters. And droids.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Star Wars is not science fiction, really. I don't think anyone would dispute that. It's space opera.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Two answers: one, Tom is right, Star Wars is really a fantasy story that substitutes magic that looks like medieval Europe with magic that looks like high technology. Two, there is absolutely no reason that the Force couldn't work using a "legitimate" fake science that worked similar to real science, but which nonetheless had nothing to do with mitochondria.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Luke asserted a family connection to the Force in RotJ. And it was implied in RotS that Darth Plagius (or however you say his name) was Anakin's father; and Palpatine asserted that Plagius was one of the most powerful Sith of all time.
Assuming that is true, that's not a terrible argument that power in the Force is hereditary.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Third: Science fiction does not at all necessarily have to follow the rules that Ron Lambert has invented for it.
Fourth: Even biologically there is no canon that shows that midichlorians operate like mitochondria
Fifth: The canon that exists says that they operate instead as isomorphic sentient beings that attach themselves to living matter of any sort, so you could even 'contract' them through eating or drinking or breathing or ANYTHING
so, I'm right, but now Ron's moved on to talking irrelevantly about how he's convinced he's psychic. Or something. This is ridiculous, but fun.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: but now Ron's moved on to talking irrelevantly about how he's convinced he's psychic. Or something. This is ridiculous, but fun.
It's now safely in the realm of the absurd.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
No, unless I were a fantasy prone personality inclined suggestably towards magical thinking, I would note to myself that winning the lottery has a lower probability than the odds of coin toss prediction, and I wouldn't think myself magical or psychic just for winning the lottery.
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