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Author Topic: Divorce in Progress
Hank
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As many here probably know, I am a live-in nanny. When I was going through the hiring process, my "Mom-Boss" (an industry term, my dears) asked whether I would be willing to continue as her nanny, should she and her husband call it quits. I said that I was there for the kids, and as long as she and I were able to communicate well, and I was able to do my best for her kids, then the number of parents living in the house was irrelevant to my job.

Fast-forward almost a year. I now am absolutely in love with "my" kids. I have also formed strong friendships with my mom-boss and dad-boss. I get along with both of them, can have productive conversations with both of them, and consider them both to be friends even outside my professional role.

The problem is that they are incredibly miserable together. I have found I am a really good peace-keeper, but it takes so much energy to process everything, and it also just plain stresses me out to be around so much tension. Add to that that Mom-boss will tell me all about this or that fight they've had, or this thing he did 5 years ago, and I'm standing there thinking, "Hello! HE'S my friend, too, y'know!" It just makes my daily life such a tightrope.

I think it's also complicated by my parents' divorce. They split up when I was in college, and I remember explaining to a friend how I felt by saying, "It's kind of like how I felt when Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston broke up. I'm like, 'Meh, I never really liked them as a couple to begin with.'" In short, I spent my whole childhood with parents who really should have been divorced, but were living together bickering instead. Familiar territory, but not something I'd like to revisit.

I don't know if there's a question here, since I'm simply not considering quitting, and I know for a fact that they will be together at least until next year (they have some financial entanglements that make splitting up really complicated/impossible, but which should be resolved by then). I guess I'm just looking for advice on how to handle the tightrope, how to manage the stress, and what I can say to make this easier for them and for their kids (who are toddlers, btw).

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BlackBlade
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Would it be impolite to tell you mom-boss you don't wish to talk about the topic of your dad-boss as both of them matter to you? Personally I'd just say I don't wish to gossip if I was going that route.

As an aside, I hope I'm not being too insensitive as I don't have enough information to make a strong judgement.

quote:
In short, I spent my whole childhood with parents who really should have been divorced, but were living together bickering instead.
I'd say you were living with two parents who should have been effectively working through their issues rather than hoping arguing combined with time would see the issues through.

I don't subscribe to the idea that two people who have decided to get married cannot under any circumstance make it work and need to get divorced. I do believe there are circumstances where one or both spouses simply will not do what needs to be done and divorce is inevitable and even preferrable to a holding pattern.

[ July 29, 2010, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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scifibum
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I am not at all familiar with how nannies relate to family members, but I do think it's crossing the line for one boss to try to pit you against another boss (even implicitly, by complaining to you about that other boss).

(Honestly, I think it's crossing the line to share marital problems with an employee, but I can see how being a live in nanny might already obviate boundaries that would ordinarily be important.)

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katharina
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The entire situation sounds like a living nightmare to me, but that's just my personality. I absolutely hate it when people complain to me about their significant other.
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rivka
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I agree 100% with BlackBlade.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
I don't subscribe to the idea that two people who have decided to get married cannot under any circumstance make it work and need to get divorced.
Seriously? You think ANY troubled marriage can be solved through hard work?

Whenever I hear something like this, I think my my parents, and I think of a friend of mine's parents. His parents are ALWAYS fighting with each other. Screaming, throwing things, swearing, knock-down drag out fights that seriously warped both kids into having negative views on a lot of things. They WANT their parents to get divorced, but the parents stayed together "for the kids" and now are together because both thing they're too old to start a new life for themselves.

My parents got divorced when I was around ten. They get along so well now that it took my current group of friends four years to figure out they were even divorced because my dad was always at the house, and they got along so well. I think the key to my parents getting along so well is that my dad goes home at the end of the day, so they never have a chance to let a day's worth of tiny slights turn into any sort of serious bickering, and they're over it the next day. If they had stayed married? I think it would be a much different story, and I know I wouldn't have friends marveling at the fact that my divorced parents have a better relationship than a great many married couples.

I know that's just an anecdote, but while I think that many married couples give up too easily, and two willing parties willing to work out their issues would likely solve some of those disagreements, sometimes sticking it out isn't worth it.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I don't subscribe to the idea that two people who have decided to get married cannot under any circumstance make it work and need to get divorced.

I'm going to go ahead and say that this is disagreeable for so many reasons. It's naive to the extreme.

Cases of incurable neglect and emotional differences aside, there are absolutely a phenomenal amount of situations wherein a spouse turns out to be abusive and/or mentally unstable, such as with possessiveness and borderline personality disorder, which reach points frequently requiring a complete disconnect by the spouse.

There are plenty of situations where it is completely unconscionable and harmful to suggest that a planned divorce is optional and that they can 'make it work.' Child and spousal abuse/molestation provide a fair number of these circumstances.

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rivka
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With the exceptions of abuse, addiction, untreated mental disorders (properly treated is a whole other story), and possibly infidelity, I do not believe any troubled marriage has only the two choices y'all are listing: divorce, or staying together and suffering. There is a third choice, but it only works if both partners are willing.

It almost always involves a qualified third party who can teach the couple how to be partners to each other.

To go back to the OP, I do wonder, Hank, if there's any way you could say something like this the next time Mom-Boss starts telling you something that makes you uncomfortable: "I'm not comfortable when you tell me things that should be just between you and Dad-Boss. I know it's important that you have someone to talk about these things, but maybe it would be better if that was a marriage counselor instead?"

Because regardless of whether they do end up divorced or not, this is clearly a couple and a family in a great deal of emotional pain, and talking to a qualified therapist might help, regardless of what they decide.

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BlackBlade
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Lyrhawn: rivka said essentially what I would have said. I didn't say "hard work" solves all the problems. People arguing all the time, fighting, suffering through bouts of depression brought on by the circumstance are "working very hard", but they are not "effectively working through" their problems.

Further I said,
quote:
I do believe there are circumstances where one or both spouses simply will not do what needs to be done and divorce is inevitable and even preferrable to a holding pattern.
That to me covers instances where a spouse for example goes insane, won't cooperate, fails to change, etc, as they "will not do...etc"

I'm sorry your parents divorced, I can't relate well as I've had a very stable family background. But I do know what it's like to have grevious differences emmerge in a marriage and to work through them. Not because divorce was off the table and unthinkable, but because we'd both made a serious committment.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
I didn't say "hard work" solves all the problems. People arguing all the time, fighting, suffering through bouts of depression brought on by the circumstance are "working very hard", but they are not "effectively working through" their problems.
I sort of assumed that you'd understand "hard work" to mean "hard work towards solving the problem" rather than effort expended towards further dysfunction. I'm a little puzzled that "hard work" in the context I was using it could be construed to mean a continuation of marital troubles.

Your position continues to be that two regular people who don't have mental dysfunctions of some sort can ALWAYS get along with some sort of therapy, but they have to be willing to do the work. I don't think that's always true. Even so, I wonder how useful a belief that is anyway, given the immense numbers of people who suffer from SOME sort of mental affliction.

quote:
I'm sorry your parents divorced
I'm not. My brother might feel a little different, since he was older and really didn't like the divorce, and thus took it hard, and took it personally.

But since my memories don't really go back that far, all I remember is two parents who never fought, who are basically best friends, who help each other in times of need, who love their children and provide support, but they just happen to live a mile away from each other. As far as I'm concerned, my childhood was stable and healthy, and I feel fortunate to have the parents I do, and the relationship they have.

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BlackBlade
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Lyrhawn:
quote:
I sort of assumed that you'd understand "hard work" to mean "hard work towards solving the problem" rather than effort expended towards further dysfunction. I'm a little puzzled that "hard work" in the context I was using it could be construed to mean a continuation of marital troubles.
Well I meant it the way I meant it. It sounded to me like you were accusing me of saying in effect, "If you just work real hard you can solve any problem."

I'm not that naive.

quote:
Your position continues to be that two regular people who don't have mental dysfunctions of some sort can ALWAYS get along with some sort of therapy, but they have to be willing to do the work. I don't think that's always true. Even so, I wonder how useful a belief that is anyway, given the immense numbers of people who suffer from SOME sort of mental affliction.
"Will" to me in the context of my statement means, "Able to and does so." Like in the sentence, "Will he make it!? Yes, he will move on to the finals!"

quote:
But since my memories don't really go back that far, all I remember is two parents who never fought, who are basically best friends, who help each other in times of need, who love their children and provide support, but they just happen to live a mile away from each other. As far as I'm concerned, my childhood was stable and healthy, and I feel fortunate to have the parents I do, and the relationship they have.
I hope this isn't too personal, but are you saying your parents got divorced moved only a mile or so away, rotated having the children and reestablished a relationship where they were, "best friends?" but continued to remain unmarried to anybody?
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AvidReader
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I sort of assumed that you'd understand "hard work" to mean "hard work towards solving the problem" rather than effort expended towards further dysfunction.

I've seen plenty of people put in effort to fix things without ever getting down to the actual problem. Deep emotional disagreements spawn lots of tiny problems. You can deal with a lot without ever fixing things, in my experience.

quote:
Your position continues to be that two regular people who don't have mental dysfunctions of some sort can ALWAYS get along with some sort of therapy, but they have to be willing to do the work.
And I think we're back to the point of the red vs blue thread. Any random two people might not be happy together, but they should be able to work together. I mean really, what is a spouse but a super-coworker you get to pick? You spend all day with people you don't necessarily like getting a job done. You can't spend less time building a shared relationship of responsibility with someone you liked at one point?

The biggest trick in marriage, in my opinion, is to make a concious effort to grow together. If both people put in at least enough effort to be emotionally trustworthy and kind, the process of moving together towards shared goals should take care of the rest. There's something to be said for shared history.

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Paul Goldner
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"I mean really, what is a spouse but a super-coworker you get to pick?"

Everything important?

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Hank
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I wondered where this thread would drift. Interesting.

To BlackBlade's question, I actually believe that most divorces aren't a result of "irreconcilable differences" so much as "differences I'm not interested in reconciling, since I kind of hate you at this point." In other words, I sort of agree. When I say my parents "should" have been divorced, I mean it as an extension of, well, to put it rather childishly, "Poop or get off the pot"--that is, "Make your marriage work, change something about the way you interact, get counseling and actually listen (rather than celebrate BlameFest) or just get a divorce already."

To Rivka, they are in counseling, but the therapist has said that he'd like to work one-on-one with Dad-Boss (seriously, why do I know all this?!) and I think Mom-Boss doesn't have anyone else close enough to her to talk to, and can't afford therapy for her individually.

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rivka
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Ah. Well you can still use the first line, even if you're not using the second.

I also wonder (wild speculation begins here) how much of what is going on in the marriage has to do with the fact that she has no external support system. And if a support group, which is usually less expensive that a therapist, might be of some use.

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Armoth
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I don't like to comment in threads I have no experience on, but I would like to point out that Rivka and Samp (although he didn't in this thread) almost ALWAYS recommend therapy.

I never wanted to say - hey, maybe therapy isn't the best idea, or maybe there are solutions that don't involve therapy - because, who am I to suggest that - but I did kind of want to point out that Hatrack's overwhelming cry to get therapy need not be the only perspective.

It sounds like these people are your friends, and that they are treating you like friends. You're a nanny, not an employee. They bring you into their family and you make their family whole, and better, and safe. So they trust you.

Maybe be a good friend. Maybe, if you get close to them, have them be good friends to you - have them maybe consider your perspective. Or don't. People expect that they can talk to their friends, even if they aren't "qualified therapists."

It's cool that you unloaded here, but you pointed out that you didn't have a question. So I think you're okay with your role in all this. You may not love the situation, but I think you know how to be a good friend and a good nanny.

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Hank
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That's worth looking at. I think right now, it's partly that she's working so much that she doesn't invest much in support systems, since her life is pretty much just working or being with her kids. For example, she goes to church every sunday, but it's all about the kids, and she often goes to the kids' sunday-school with them, instead of getting time to talk to any other adults or even just get a spiritual re-charge. Dad-Boss is agnostic, so it's also hard to get much out of it handling both kids by herself.
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Samprimary
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quote:
I don't like to comment in threads I have no experience on, but I would like to point out that Rivka and Samp (although he didn't in this thread) almost ALWAYS recommend therapy.
That's because in nearly all of the cases where a person/couple has marital troubles and come to the internet seeking advice, it almost always results in a story that suggests that marital counseling is in order, as well as a perfect opportunity to re-iterate that the internet is not your marriage counselor and you can't be effectively diagnosed from a post.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Lyrhawn: rivka said essentially what I would have said.

Rivka left important exceptions [Razz]
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BlackBlade
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None that I didn't leave myself.
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Samprimary
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umm, i dunno. you said that the exceptions were only where people 'will not do' what needs to be done to save the marriage. s'what I think is wrong. There's plenty of people who cannot (not will not, CAN not) be assumed to be able to do so, even if they swear they can. It's simply not an option for them. People come with wildly differing levels of mental stability and confidence, and we're surprisingly frequently capable of expressing permanent dysfunction. On an anecdotal level, I watched a disastrous marriage prolong itself torturously because the husband was a malignant sociopath, but they were part of a religion that thought that marriage was for-keeps-forever-no-matter-what, so when they turned to the church for advice, they only got terrible advice of the 'you have to make it work' variety.

That one kind of had a 'happy' ending though; he's in jail for wire fraud, she's Episcopal now and the mother of a happy baby who is not at risk of being raised by a psychopath.

understanding that some people simply cannot be assumed competent enough to remain married to, no matter how much they are willing to 'try,' can actually make the process of moving on easier. it can even make them easier to forgive.

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kmbboots
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Hank, if I were in that situation, I would try to keep from getting in between the parents (being especially wary of any unusual attachment from the opposite gender parent) and concentrate on being an advocate and help to the children.

[ July 29, 2010, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
I don't like to comment in threads I have no experience on, but I would like to point out that Rivka and Samp (although he didn't in this thread) almost ALWAYS recommend therapy.
That's because in nearly all of the cases where a person/couple has marital troubles and come to the internet seeking advice, it almost always results in a story that suggests that marital counseling is in order, as well as a perfect opportunity to re-iterate that the internet is not your marriage counselor and you can't be effectively diagnosed from a post.
But maybe people aren't looking to the internet for their answers. Maybe it's just a forum, or venue, for self-expression and mild feedback. Oneof many factors a person uses in his life to help with his own self-assessment. And I personally believe that it is better to engage in interdependent relationships than it is to use a therapist on whom you can only be dependent.
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Hank
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I would try to keep from getting in between the parents (being especially wary of any unusual attachment from the opposite gender parent)

This is fortunately not even an issue since he is a good 35 years my senior and has a daughter (from another relationship) exactly my age. I am definitely the second daughter to him.
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kmbboots
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Hank, good. That is a complication you don't want!

Armoth, would you say the same thing about other kinds of professional help? If someone needed medical advice or legal advice for example?

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
But maybe people aren't looking to the internet for their answers.

Two-part answer.

1. When therapy/counseling is recommended, it's nearly always related to there being some solicitation of advice.

2. The other cases are where even if no solicitation of advice was made clear, the situation still seems starkly in need of the pros.

quote:
[/qb]And I personally believe that it is better to engage in interdependent relationships than it is to use a therapist on whom you can only be dependent. [/QB]
Describe this 'dependence' that you have an apprehension of, re: therapists.
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rivka
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Armoth, heaven knows Samp and I don't agree on a whole lot. Maybe the fact that we agree on this means something?

I also wonder if you would similarly object if on a JO forum, I were to suggest CYLOR if someone posed a complex practical sheilah? The internet is not a marriage counselor, and it's no replacement for a rav -- or as Kate said, a doctor or lawyer -- either. Or do you also object to the fact that 90+% of the time that someone starts a medical question thread, the answers are mostly "see a doctor"?

No one is suggesting that Hank seek therapy. [Wink] But part of BEING a good friend is knowing when you are not an expert and your friend needs one.

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El JT de Spang
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People also routinely respond to medical question threads with the advice, "Go see a doctor!"

Internet forums are not the places to go for diagnoses.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
From Blackblade:
I hope this isn't too personal, but are you saying your parents got divorced moved only a mile or so away, rotated having the children and reestablished a relationship where they were, "best friends?" but continued to remain unmarried to anybody?

Sort of.

My dad moved about a mile away, but we stayed with my mom. My dad was always at the house though, so much so to the point that my friends in high school never suspected that they were divorced. I wouldn't necessarily say they were best friends right away, but after a decade and change, they spend probably 75% of their social free time with each other, do shopping together, and he goes to the house to do chores on a weekly basis to help out around the house. They both dated someone in the years immediately after the divorce, but my brother and I hated both the people they were dating, and both relationships ended.

Essentially you got it though.

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rivka
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Lyrhawn, you do realize that what you are describing is an extremely uncommon scenario? My ex and I work very hard to keep our co-parenting relationship cordial (and have frequently been complimented on it), and the custody arrangement (alternate weekends and a night a week with their dad) are pretty close to what is the most typical. So I'd say my kids have it better than many children of divorce.

But I'd be lying to myself if I said this was a better scenario than if their dad and I had managed to successfully repair the relationship.

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Lyrhawn
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Yeah, I've been informed by every child of divorce I've ever met, and some kids of married parents, that my situation is very atypical. I put in the anecdotal disclaimer above though. I don't think divorce is a great solution to making home life better. I think in some cases it can be an improvement though. Not all, not even a majority.

And at no point will I, or have I, said that divorce is preferable to successfully repairing a broken relationship. I would think that's anyone's first choice. It just isn't always possible, and that's the only point I've been trying to make.

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kmbboots
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My sister and her ex-husband are far better off not married and now she is married to a much kinder man.
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Armoth, heaven knows Samp and I don't agree on a whole lot. Maybe the fact that we agree on this means something?

I also wonder if you would similarly object if on a JO forum, I were to suggest CYLOR if someone posed a complex practical sheilah? The internet is not a marriage counselor, and it's no replacement for a rav -- or as Kate said, a doctor or lawyer -- either. Or do you also object to the fact that 90+% of the time that someone starts a medical question thread, the answers are mostly "see a doctor"?

No one is suggesting that Hank seek therapy. [Wink] But part of BEING a good friend is knowing when you are not an expert and your friend needs one.

First, Samp - I currently function as a sort of adviser for high school kids. It's more of a religious adviser, but it generally stems to a lot of issues, including eating disorders, depression, issues with parents, etc. I find that the girls like to attach themselves to male advisers and form really unhealthy relationships. A lot of the guy-advisers are into it - they like being fawned over by 16 and 17 year old girls. I think what's worse is I find a lot of girls who are extremely dependent reinforcing their dependence by constantly relying on advisers.

These girls will email me and txt me and gchat me with every accomplishment in their lives. They'll ask me advice on anything and everything. At a certain point, I told one girl who was about to graduate that I though she was incredibly smart, incredibly capable, and that I was really proud of her - but I don't think she needs an adviser anymore. She agreed with me and told me that she is going to see a therapist instead, expecting me to be proud of her. I was not and am not - in my opinion, she doesn't need a therapist, she needs to be alone for a little bit to figure herself out.

Dependent relationships are necessary in our lives, but I think, only to the extent to which they make us independent. A therapist has its place. But if you are an independent person, there is more to be gained by interdependence, by being in a relationship where you give as well as receive - I think that's more healthy and productive.

Rivka - I'm not arguing against the assertion that the internet isn't a rabbi, doctor or therapist. I'm suggesting that people perhaps don't approach the internet asking for a dcotr, rabbi or therapist. People are mature enough to control whom they are asking for advice. If I come to you for emotional advice, I will be really upset if you tell me to go to a therapist. We're friends. I don't want a therapist. I want to speak with YOU. I'm not a child, and I knew the options available to me before I approached you. Ya know?

And not all situations warrant therapy. I don't believe that therapy is akin to law, medicine or halacha. I believe that a good friend is often better than a therapist. Sometimes they know you better, they know the context better, and your relationship can be interdependent as opposed to dependent.

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Hank
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Armoth, I have a good friend who feels a sort of scorn towards the idea of therapy in general, because she feels that people would be better off spending their time and money building long-term friendships. I saw her point.

We once discussed the therapy issue with another mutual friend, who had been through lots of therapy after her father died at a young age. She had a very interesting response: Not every support system is created equal.

I'd like to say that I have a great support system. I have a friend to call about family stuff who gets it as gives great advice. I have a friend to call about work stuff who is the same. I have a very girly friend and a very feminist friend. I have religious friends and atheistic and other faiths. I have people I can call to go to the movies and people I can call to talk and cry with. I'm very fortunate, but that isn't the only reason I have such a great group of friends, from so many walks of life.

The people whose advice means the most to me are people who have known me for years, who have accepted my care and concern during their rough patches and who have seen me through mine. I have invested time, money, and baked goods into all of these relationships.

If I was someone who was going through lots of issues in my life, who had difficulties in multiple areas, particularly in my family or romantic relationships, I may have let some of these sorts of friendships deteriorate. I may not even have had the right type of social skills to form such truly supportive relationships to begin with. So I could easily find myself with no real support system, in the middle of a crisis.

If that were to happen, yes, I should work on rebuilding or establishing a support system, but that takes a lot of emotional and social capital. Wouldn't it be not just helpful, but maybe even necessary to have a sort of instant-friend? Someone who is willing and able to support me, offer perspective and counsel and help me to sort out the best course to recover from my situation?

I agree that to assume a therapist is the answer is misguided at best, but in many cases, a therapist can help you ask the right questions, and can guide you back into a successful life.

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Armoth
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Yes. As I said. There are periods in life where we need to be dependent. For those times, a therapist isn't just alright - a therapist is necessary.

But I think a person will be emotionally healthier and happier if they always tried to make themselves be as independent and as interdependent as possible. There are times where without a doctor, you will die. But there are times where if you are without a therapist - you might slip into dangerous depression, but another possibility is that with effort, self reflection, and the involvement of your interdependent relationships, you may grow into a stronger and more healthy person.

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Hank
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So your concern is that you believe for those who may possibly be able to work things out for themselves, seeking help might stifle those impulses. Which is valid. But Samp and Rivka's concern is that those in the middle of a crisis are probably least likely to be able to determine whether they need help.
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natural_mystic
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I would guess the subset of people for whom seeing a therapist is a negative (for non-financial reasons) to be very small. Is there any data to suggest that working out your problems via a therapist is inferior to gutting it out on your own (or talking with friends)? It's not like they're doing your math homework for you and now you won't be able to solve a problem of a certain type on the final. Ultimately, the therapist is helping the individual help themselves.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I don't believe that therapy is akin to law, medicine or halacha.

I could not POSSIBLY disagree with you more. I think this attitude within the frum community is a HUGE, HUGE problem, and that many of the major social ills that infect the frum community trace at least partially back to this attitude. And to reiterate, since you don't seem to be clear on the distinction, Samp and I are NOT talking about just anyone in an "adviser" position. Unless you have a Ph.D. or M.D. I don't know about, we are NOT talking about you or someone in a minimally-trained position like that.


quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I believe that a good friend is often better than a therapist.

Actually, I agree with that. For some issues, like occasional venting, a good friend is more appropriate. For serious marital strife, that is almost never the case.

Have you ever read any of Rabbi Dr. Avraham Twerski's books or articles? I strongly recommend that you do so, and can make specific recommendations if you like.

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Armoth
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It's not as back and white as seeing a therapist is a negative. In the right contexts, it's quite positive.

Let's take the dependence thing. Say that you need to share all your achievements with others because you have such low self esteem - or that your locus of self esteem is external - you desperately care what others think of you.

A therapist recognizes this and tries to help you, but what will probably happen is that you will grow dependent on the therapist.

1) A therapist has no financial incentive to decrease your dependence on him.

2) Tough love of the natural world may be the best instructor for being able to understand yourself, and to really develop your self esteem.

As for data? I don't really know how to answer that. It's my perspective based on personal definitions of health, values, and on experiences.

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Armoth
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Rivka - I have read R' Dr. Twersky. And a lot of his stuff is good - but a lot of it is too therapy/addiction focused.

If I were to become a therapist, I think I would be good - less because of the training I would receive (in fact, I think some training would be more harmful than helpful), and more because of the person I am.

People need to be willing to get help when they need it. I agree that that's a problem. But I think a lot of the problems that exist because of a lack of effort. And I think sometimes that getting a therapist is an easy way out, and ultimately will not contribute to a person's mental health.

Then again, this is why I refrained from mentioning this until now. I'm not married and can't speak to the particular issues. I'm just not a huge fan of therapy for every issue.

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Samprimary
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quote:
First, Samp - I currently function as a sort of adviser for high school kids. It's more of a religious adviser, but it generally stems to a lot of issues, including eating disorders, depression, issues with parents, etc. I find that the girls like to attach themselves to male advisers and form really unhealthy relationships. A lot of the guy-advisers are into it - they like being fawned over by 16 and 17 year old girls. I think what's worse is I find a lot of girls who are extremely dependent reinforcing their dependence by constantly relying on advisers.

These girls will email me and txt me and gchat me with every accomplishment in their lives. They'll ask me advice on anything and everything. At a certain point, I told one girl who was about to graduate that I though she was incredibly smart, incredibly capable, and that I was really proud of her - but I don't think she needs an adviser anymore. She agreed with me and told me that she is going to see a therapist instead, expecting me to be proud of her. I was not and am not - in my opinion, she doesn't need a therapist, she needs to be alone for a little bit to figure herself out.

Then you guys run a very amateur shop and you are making the mistake of conflating your very amateur shop's patently nonethical behavior with what you have to expect from professional, licensed therapists, not people who 'sort of act as advisors' for a church. So the people we would advise they go see would not foster an environment nearly anything like what you have witnessed where you are. Which is thankful, because what you described is would be considered critically unethical in professional therapy.

An ethical therapist is not going to make you dependent upon them. The point to having a therapist help with marriage disputes is that you build up healthier habits of conflict resolution, and the therapist is the one that facilitates that growth. To judge professional therapy over your experiences with your evidently codependency-fostering environment for youth would be like judging medicine by what you see in a homeopathy clinic.

In addition, you seem to misunderstand therapy to its core, or at least conflating it with the way your religious advice center causes girls to have unhealthy relationships with the males there. You don't go to someone, lay out all your problems, and in return get a handy list of solutions. A relationship therapist for someone in a relationship experiencing problems is there to help you be able to communicate with your partner, not someone to talk to instead of them.

quote:
I will be really upset if you tell me to go to a therapist. We're friends. I don't want a therapist. I want to speak with YOU. I'm not a child, and I knew the options available to me before I approached you. Ya know?
Is someone necessarily talking down to you or treating you 'as a child' were they to suggest to you that it is their opinion that you should consult a therapist? I know that stigmatizing therapy is fairly common, but I want to understand more about your own personal stigmatization.

quote:
And not all situations warrant therapy.
Good. Nobody is arguing that, though.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
1) A therapist has no financial incentive to decrease your dependence on him.

Losing your license due to unethical practices is most certainly a financial disincentive.

quote:
As for data? I don't really know how to answer that.
Then you may want to educate yourself instead of remaining dependent on personal anecdote.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
A therapist recognizes this and tries to help you, but what will probably happen is that you will grow dependent on the therapist.

This statement leads me to believe that you have never actually been in therapy -- or not with a good therapist, anyway. I have, both marital and individual, and I reject this notion as the norm. I'm sure there are lousy therapists who do this (actually, come to think of it, I know at least one, although she was not yet licensed when I saw her and probably still isn't [Razz] ), but it is definitionally not what a good therapist does.

quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
but a lot of it is too therapy/addiction focused.

Given that helping addicts overcome their addictions has been a major focus of his life, that's not surprising. But if you prefer ones that are not addiction-focused, try Dear Rabbi, Dear Doctor, The First Year of Marriage, When Do the Good Things Start, and It's Not As Tough As You Think. (The first and last of those each have sequels, as well.)
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
And I think sometimes that getting a therapist is an easy way out

Oh, and this? NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO! Therapy is NOT easy. It is painful, like most growth processes. It is, in fact, one of the most painful-yet-useful things I have ever done.
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Samprimary
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In fact, the continued stigmitization of therapy ensures that there's a steady stream of people soliciting advice on personal issues who have not yet considered therapybecause they think it's 'a cop out' or an 'admission of failure,' that they can't do it themselves/are weak/should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do it on their own/etc etc etc

It's a veritable panopoly of situations where preconception begets an inability to move forward or do what is most likely to help.

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Uprooted
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quote:
Originally posted by Hank:
I have invested time, money, and baked goods into all of these relationships.

Not to make light of a serious topic, but loved that line.

Many years ago, I was a nanny for about 6 months to a single mom (or almost single; I don't remember if the couple was divorced yet). I still remember the time she asked me if it was okay if her ex called me about working on a Saturday, and I said sure. So I worked a Saturday when he was supposed to have the kids, and at the end of the day asked him about getting paid and he said she would pay me. I was young and naive and should have said "no way." So of course I told her that the following week and she about blew a gasket.

Yeah. Really grown up behavior. If they play games like that using the nanny, I wonder what those children, who are now adults, went through at the hands of their parents using them as pawns in their bitter little game?

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Armoth
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I don't have anything to say. All I have is personal experience and it leaves me with a distaste for therapy. It isn't limited to the one situation I've been in, but I can't exactly write out my life story.

I have been to therapy, and I found it silly. I've been able to accomplish a lot more through friends.

I suppose I was writing this to see if there were others who agreed with me, and I also wanted to point out that it's just Rivka and Samp who feel so incredibly strongly - and that there are other perspectives out there. If others agree with me, fine. If not, I'm okay backing into the shadows and letting you guys dominate the mainstream opinion. Maybe I'll even agree with you at a later date in life.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
it's just Rivka and Samp who feel so incredibly strongly

Pretty sure that's not true. Which is not to discount your opinion. But accuracy is nice.
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Samprimary
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Just know that your personal experience as a 'sort of therapist' for the religious group is an unfair test (even forgiving how limited anecdote is), because it's not at all representative of qualified therapy.

You also seems to only be comparing therapists to your position only when it's convenient. You can't argue it's both very similar and completely different from what you and your coworkers are doing. Either you argue it's similar to what you do and thus have to acknowledge there are good practitioners and bad practitioners, or you acknowledge it's not the same at all and let it go.

tl; dr version for whole thread: your internal condescension for therapy is interesting, but it derives from personal unrepresentative bias.

I'd still enjoy talking about it because it's, for once, an interesting position from a rather unique source (a religious therapy system that sound so skeevy I'd keep anyone a mile away from it, period, and if it were a licensed therapy group I'd flag it for unethical practices in a HEARTBEAT). It's definitely something I'll reference in the future when talking about the therapy stigma.

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Armoth
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"so incredibly strongly"? I dunno, I feel like I'm on firm ground there.
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