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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The stunning decline of Barack Obama: 10 key reasons why (Page 3)

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Author Topic: The stunning decline of Barack Obama: 10 key reasons why
Chris Bridges
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mal's posting style is easy to understand and consistent.

He posts something inflammatory to prove a point.

Someone easily disputes it, with references.

He either ignores the response entirely, or responds to a different part of the response, or whips in another inflammatory statement to prove a different point while never, ever, acknowledging that his original one was debunked.

Taking on one of his arguments is like chasing rainbows. The original one fades long before you make any headway and you eventually get too tired to continue. I don't think it's anywhere near requiring disciplinary action, people just need to know what to expect if they jump into the fray. I do it anyway now and then because a) I'm bored, b) it's good to keep track of what FOX is spreading these days and c) I don't like leaving inaccurate talking points lying around where someone impressionable might step on them and get infected.

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CT
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[Kiss]
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rivka
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I'm with CT. I'm glad you post here, Chris. [Smile]
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
mal's posting style is easy to understand and consistent.

He posts something inflammatory to prove a point.

Someone easily disputes it, with references.

He either ignores the response entirely, or responds to a different part of the response, or whips in another inflammatory statement to prove a different point while never, ever, acknowledging that his original one was debunked.

Taking on one of his arguments is like chasing rainbows. The original one fades long before you make any headway and you eventually get too tired to continue. I don't think it's anywhere near requiring disciplinary action, people just need to know what to expect if they jump into the fray. I do it anyway now and then because a) I'm bored, b) it's good to keep track of what FOX is spreading these days and c) I don't like leaving inaccurate talking points lying around where someone impressionable might step on them and get infected.

Us conservatives have been schooled by liberals. It is funny to hear a liberal complain about, "talking points". It is funny to watch liberals react to conservative political rallies. Only libs held rallies before we had a president that announced, "A fundamental transformation of America" Before now, regular Americans went to work, they didn't attend rallies. Regular Americans, (the majority) are waking up and don't want a "fundamental transformation of America."

It took a lot to get conservatives to rise up and take a day off of work to go to a rally. Libs have always had the unions with paid protesters and the unemployed "social justice" crowd.

Be afraid, be very afraid. Thanks for the lesson on "community organizing". Conservatives have been griping about "talking points" for decades. Conservatives are "organizing".....good luck....thanks for the lesson....we outnumber you.

[ August 30, 2010, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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MattP
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DOUBLE RAINBOW!!!
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Rakeesh
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Malanthrop, are you ever going to return to the topic of purely capitalistic America? Or are you abandoning that now that points weren't going your way? Do we not have to 'be afraid' of you actually defending your point on that topic?
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Chris Bridges
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Note: not one of my refutations of his points on the second page addressed.

When the people in power are the ones abusing the system, often the only recourse for those without a voice is to rally together and hope it gets attention. That's sort of the point of the rally, strike, protest, what-have-you in the first place.

And, as I've said elsewhere, both Dems and Repubs are known for whipping up their constituents with fear tactics. Repubs are just so much better at it.

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Chris Bridges
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You want a better explanation of why and Obama has lost control of his initiatives and drive forward and where he failed to control his own narrative? Check out Drew Western's What Created the Populist Explosion and How Democrats Can Avoid the Shrapnel in November, an excellent and unforgiving look at just what Obama did wrong and why so many center and left voters are unhappy even if they can't quite explain why.

quote:
- The logical follow-up to a bill designed to pull the economy out of a ditch is to make such a bill unnecessary in the future, by attacking Wall Street for having thrown us into crisis and passing strong legislation to rein in the excesses that created the economic meltdown. This would have sealed the American people's loyalty to the new president and Congress. (Heading into November, this is, in fact, the most popular piece of legislation the Democrats have passed, but it took them nearly a year and a half to get there, and by then, neither the president nor the Democratic Congress enjoyed the good will of the average American.) Instead, the same banks that received bailouts are foreclosing in record rates on the homeowners whose payroll taxes funded the bailouts but don't seem to get the same kind of attention to their needs from the federal government. Adding insult to injury, the banks double and triple credit card interest rates to as high as 30 percent, including on people's existing credit card debt -- while continuing to receive no-interest loans from the federal government.
- Despite talk of accountability, no one is fired (except one auto executive), virtually no one is prosecuted or even investigated as far as anyone knows, and banks that received bailouts flaunt record bonuses.

quote:
But instead of using any of the well-tested narratives that were highly effective during the campaign or devising any new ones of its own, the administration decides to try to "sell" health care without a narrative. (I wrote about this in detail a year ago and will not repeat that history here, except in telegraphic form.) The president refuses to state where he stands on any of the substantive debates about health reform for a year, such as whether we should have a "public option" (a term so ill-conceived it's hard to believe the public supported it anyway; imagine the support it might have received if it had been called instead "the one health care plan the health insurance companies don't get to control"). Instead, the White House uses phrases such as "bending the cost curve" while conservatives flood the airwaves with evocative phrases such as "government takeover," "a bureaucrat between you and your doctor," and "death panels."

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Before now, regular Americans went to work, they didn't attend rallies.
Out of interest, do you think "regular Americans" went to the original civil rights rallies that Glenn Beck is seeking to reclaim for regular Americans like himself?

You don't have to answer that until you've answered Rakeesh's questions, of course.

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MrSquicky
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That was a very good article Chris. Of course, I would say that, as it's what I've been saying for a while here. There's one thing I have to take issue with though.

The author concludes with a list of courageous stands and says:
quote:
That's what Democrats stand for. It's time they said it.
I think that's wishful thinking. The Democrats are maybe not as beholden to big business as the Republicans, but it's near too close to tell. Part of the reason that the financial and medical insurance reforms were so anemic and pro-big industry is because some of the most prominent Democrats involved in them are deep in the pockets of the industries they were trying to regulate.
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DarkKnight
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The article seems to be summed up by two points:
1) Republicans and conservatives are all racists
2) Blame Bush
It reads liket the typical Racist Bush Republicans Conservatives are 100% responsible for ruining everything and Obama would have been much better off by simply talking more.

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Chris Bridges
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Where was race mentioned in that article? Where?
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DarkKnight
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quote:
What is that public mood? It can be characterized by a single phrase -- populist anger -- and it cuts across partisan lines. On the right, it is alloyed with racial anxiety and prejudice.

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Chris Bridges
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Actually the government/Wall Street problems were endemic to politics since well before Clinton. The bubble rose under his presidency and he and his Congress didn't do anything to contain it, preferring to enjoy the temporary prosperity it brought. When it crashed under Bush, his tactics of systematically deregulating everything (and posting lobbyists from industries to regulatory boards of those same industries) helped it snowball faster.

Obama would have been better off taking command, instead of (naively?) hoping that post-Bush a civilized ruling body would emerge. He tends to wait out the outraged puffery until reason shines through, but I think he severely underestimated the power of propaganda and the American public.

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Chris Bridges
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And that one brief mention -- a simple acknowledgment of just one of the elements involved in part of the populist movement -- is enough to write off that entire article and every reasoned point in it?
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MattP
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Not only that, it was sufficient to merit one of the two bullet points that summarize the entire article.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
2) Blame Bush
To be fair, George W. Bush was an absolutely terrible President and the policy he, along with the Republican Congress, pursued of deregulation of the financial industry is one of the major - and arguably the largest - causes of our current financial situation.
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DarkKnight
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We can start with his headline
quote:
The GOP Sets the Country on a Course of Economic Destruction
The GOP did not set the Country on a course of economic destruction. The author knows that it is a much more complicated issue than "GOP destroys Country" but the sound bite makes it more palatable to his leftist rant. I think you realize as well that blaming the GOP solely for the economic downturn is wrong. That's just the first part of the first headline...
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DarkKnight
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quote:
And that one brief mention -- a simple acknowledgment of just one of the elements involved in part of the populist movement -- is enough to write off that entire article and every reasoned point in it?
That one brief false mention which dismisses a large portion of the country...
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Mucus
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Total tangent: What is the history and origin of the term "leftist" in American political conversation?
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MrSquicky
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DK,
The point of the essay is that this is the PR story that the Democrats could have, and the author believes should have, used in order to advance their agenda and party.

Not surprisingly, the reality is much more complicated than what he's saying they should have crafted their 15 second message into. Considering the GOP has embraced outright falsehood for it seems like the majority of their talking points, I'm not convinced that not conveying the whole story is wrong in this context.

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DarkKnight
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Not sure of the accuracy but wiki says
quote:
The terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization.[3]

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DarkKnight
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MS, so his point is that the Democrats should have embraced outright falsehood for the majority of his talking points...
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Mucus
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I don't mean left-wing and right-wing. I meant, when did it got shortened (assuming here) to leftist and rightist, plus when it got popular.
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MrSquicky
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No, what he said is extremely over-exaggerated, but the basic idea is true, unlike, say "Death Panels". The Republicans seriously screwed the country and their actions were lead causes of the current economic difficulties. It is a failure of President Obama and the Democratic Congress that they haven't established this for the public and, as a result, they are going to own the poor economy come November.

edit: And the long term effect that the Republican push to deregulate everything is going to pop up again pretty much as soon as they get back into power, which is going to lead to more economic, environmental, and other disasters is also in large part on the Democrats shoulders.

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DarkKnight
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quote:
The Republicans seriously screwed the country and their actions were lead causes of the current economic difficulties
Can you provide non biased links to prove that Republicans were the lead cause of the economic difficulties? Even wiki does not agree with your assesment.
quote:
It is a failure of President Obama and the Democratic Congress that they haven't established this for the public and, as a result, they are going to own the poor economy come November.
They haven't established it because they know Democrats played a part in the downturn, as well as many many others
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MrSquicky
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I didn't say the lead cause. I said lead causes.
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DarkKnight
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Provide proof of your claim that the Republicans actions were lead causes.
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MrSquicky
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Ummm...nah. I'm okay with leaving it as I said it.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
Provide proof of your claim that the Republicans actions were lead causes.

Would you like to go on record claiming that there were no Republican actions that were among the lead causes of the financial downturn?
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AvidReader
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
Provide proof of your claim that the Republicans actions were lead causes.

Seriously? I still call myself a Republican (Florida's closed primary) and I'd agree that they were the biggest probelm. They controlled Congress during the 90s when most of our bubble issues started. They did nothing to rein in anything - even after legitimate disasters like Enron. They've been ignorning the nation's biggest problems for a good 15 years now.

I just haven't seen anything from the Dems that convinces me they can do any better. "Didn't break it but can't fix it" is not enough to switch parties for, in my opinion.

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DarkKnight
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quote:
Would you like to go on record claiming that there were no Republican actions that were among the lead causes of the financial downturn?
I never made that claim, I am making the claim that there are many different causes that led up the downturn and experts do not agree on any single cause or that the event was caused by Republicans. Democrats had a large hand in the failure as well, remember Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?
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Bokonon
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Freddie and Fannie didn't get into subrime until after the major banks were already knee-deep in it. They came to Congress (some time in the 2000s) begging to be deregulated to be able to "compete".

I really hate that Freddie/Fannie Mac meme. http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/hancock/blog/2010/08/fannie_freddie_did_not_cause_t.html

-Bok

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fugu13
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There was definitely a housing bubble without them, but the GSEs were not just innocent bystanders, and a huge proportion of the monetary loss associated with the mortgage collapse is associated with them. When they started securitizing subprime mortgages, they grew the market by insane proportions and largely took it over (starting in 2004 -- note that the number of subprime mortgages went off the charts then).

What's more, they were offering an implicit government guarantee.

Don't take me wrong, I largely place the blame on Congress for authorizing their actions -- once given the power, it is hardly surprising they used it. But giving them that power was a mistake that cost the US somewhere between hundreds of billions and a trillion dollars that would likely not have been lost, otherwise. That there would still have been numerous other losses does not mean a substantial chunk of the crisis is not from that root.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
quote:
Would you like to go on record claiming that there were no Republican actions that were among the lead causes of the financial downturn?
I never made that claim, I am making the claim that there are many different causes that led up the downturn and experts do not agree on any single cause or that the event was caused by Republicans.
And you'll note, when you read carefully, that post isn't claiming a single cause.


quote:
Democrats had a large hand in the failure as well, remember Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?
suuuure do
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Bokonon
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quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
There was definitely a housing bubble without them, but the GSEs were not just innocent bystanders, and a huge proportion of the monetary loss associated with the mortgage collapse is associated with them. When they started securitizing subprime mortgages, they grew the market by insane proportions and largely took it over (starting in 2004 -- note that the number of subprime mortgages went off the charts then).

What's more, they were offering an implicit government guarantee.

Don't take me wrong, I largely place the blame on Congress for authorizing their actions -- once given the power, it is hardly surprising they used it. But giving them that power was a mistake that cost the US somewhere between hundreds of billions and a trillion dollars that would likely not have been lost, otherwise. That there would still have been numerous other losses does not mean a substantial chunk of the crisis is not from that root.

I agree that they were a problem, but I don't think they were necessary for the economic turmoil we are in... If they had ben frozen out by Congress, the other private banks would have filled much of the gap. Also, as mentioned in the linked article, I sympathize with the idea that focusing so much on the GSEs allows one to ignore that their issues stemmed from them being de-regulated, which many of their critics either would, or had, recommend be done as a general rule on government organizations.

Blaming someone for doing what you would want them to do seems tacky at best.

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MrSquicky
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From what I can tell, taking the GSEs out would have brought the crisis on faster and this would have affected the magnitude of the crash, but the people who were screwing around were going to push as far as they could get away with. There was an insatiable appetite for mortgage base securities. Fannie and Freddie added greatly to the pool and allowed these whole guaranteed to fail situation to go on longer than it probably otherwise would have been able to, but, had they not done so, other people would have covered a lot of the same areas in filling that insatiable demand.
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Samprimary
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Just read this, btw, after reading the article

quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
The article seems to be summed up by two points:
1) Republicans and conservatives are all racists
2) Blame Bush
It reads liket the typical Racist Bush Republicans Conservatives are 100% responsible for ruining everything and Obama would have been much better off by simply talking more.

The article can, in fact, not be summed up by these points, and your issues with reading comprehension continue.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Malanthrop, are you ever going to return to the topic of purely capitalistic America? Or are you abandoning that now that points weren't going your way? Do we not have to 'be afraid' of you actually defending your point on that topic?

Shall I answer this for the third time?

I made the mistake of using an abosolute term. No nation has ever been "purely capitalistic". The US was the most "pure capitalistic" society in the world, in it's founding. In a world economy, (a world capitalistic economy), American jobs are lost to nations with lower corporate tax rates and lower labor costs. You hear a lot about US auto maker jobs being lost....reality, there are more American workers building cars than at any time in our past. Toyota has factories in Alabama and most the GM plants didn't move to other countries,...they moved from Michigan to the south. States that are more business friendly. Detroit is the canary in the coal mine for what is to come,....if progressive's get their way. Maybe it's unfair that Alabama has lower taxes to build cars. To be fair, lets get rid of state's rights. Of course, the USSR failed for the same reasons, when their people were waiting in line for toilet paper and drove Yugos, if lucky.

We'll never learn our lesson. History is hard to argue with. Socialists erase history in schools in order to convince the next generation to double down. Socialism fails, the US government is one of the oldest in the world. Our capitalistic and greedy society is older than the rest.

Name for me, any nation that has a government as old as ours?

China?.....no
Britain?.....no
France?....no
Russia?.....no
Japan?......no
Germany?...no

I've only listed major nations. American capitalism is the elder statesman in the world and those nations can thank us for radio, tv's and the internet....not to mention, toilet paper....another American invention.

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TomDavidson
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And, of course, the squirrels.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
And, of course, the squirrels.

Name a major nation in the world that has a longer standing governmental system. Name any nation that has contributed more to the advancement of man-kind in the last 200 years. Name one that exceeds this "rooky" nation in inventions. Name one that produces more food. Where's the bread basket of the world? It isn't the "bread basket" due to climate or land area....American innovation and greed invented the combine. Much of the world's population are wielding scythes for the umpteinth generation. If you live in India, you're lucky to inherit a steet vendor cart. In America, a hot dog stand owning father can end up with wall street children

[ September 04, 2010, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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Parkour
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My head hurts.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
... Name one that produces more food. Where's the bread basket of the world?

quote:
Agriculture Statistics > Production > Wheat (most recent) by country
# 1 China: 86,490,000
# 2 India: 65,100,000
# 3 United States: 63,810,000

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/agr_pro_whe-agriculture-production-wheat

quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
... those nations can thank us for radio, tv's and the internet....not to mention, toilet paper....another American invention.

quote:
Although paper had been known as a wrapping and padding material in China since the 2nd century BC,[1] the first documented use of toilet paper in human history dates back to the 6th century AD, in early medieval China.[2] In 589 AD the scholar-official Yan Zhitui (531–591) wrote about the use of toilet paper
...
During the early 14th century (Yuan Dynasty) it was recorded that in modern-day Zhejiang province alone there was an annual manufacturing of toilet paper amounting in ten million packages of 1,000 to 10,000 sheets of toilet paper each

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#History

quote:
A graduate of Oxford University, Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web, an internet-based hypermedia initiative for global information sharing while at CERN, the European Particle Physics Laboratory, in 1989.
http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/

quote:
Scottish inventor John Logie Baird demonstrated the transmission of moving silhouette images in London in 1925, and of moving, monochromatic images in 1926. Baird's scanning disk produced an image of 30 lines resolution, just enough to discern a human face, from a double spiral of lenses.[4] This demonstration by Baird is generally agreed to be the world's first true demonstration of television, albeit a mechanical form of television no longer in use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television#History
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Parkour
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And off malanthrop goes on another random tangent to avoid comprehension of being proved wrong!
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
...
Name for me, any nation that has a government as old as ours?

China?.....no
Britain?.....no
France?....no
Russia?.....no
Japan?......no
Germany?...no

Quick thought.

If we use your apparent goalposts which are government continuity, unbroken by occupation or revolution (whatever that is supposed to mean in the larger scheme of things), the American government would seem to date from 1776.

However, the last British revolution was in 1688 with the constitutional monarchy uninterrupted since then.

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malanthrop
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It isn't surprising for China to have "more" agricultural production....especially from a society that grows their own food.

I didn't argue that the US (the bread basket) had the most, it just exceeds it's needs....efficiency. I spent many years driving swathers in pea fields,....28% viable crop harvest,....was great. Of course, the Chinese can exceed 90%...paying people to pick the peas, one pod at a time. We have one person drive a harvester, they have dozens pick them. Our harvester driver makes a better living.

Obama can stimulate the economy by paying for "paid for by stimulus funds" road signs. The government can employ half the people to dig holes and half to fill holes. I was raised with a large garden and I ate dear meat....just as most of China does.

The "world's bread basket"...isn't just wheat. There are potatoes and rice as well. Believe me, as a previous US Navy Sailor, there's quite the black market for US rice in Japan.

Of course, they have a protectionist economy where US Rice is taxed to oblivion and you'll pay through the nose for a slice of watermelon or a few grahams of beef.

American military make a lot of money selling US goods to Japanese citizens on the black market.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Believe me, as a previous US Navy Sailor, there's quite the black market for US rice in Japan.

The 'black market for US rice in Japan' is actually phenomenally negligable, to what extent it exists at all. Not that I would have believed you in the first place, since you never seem to have any idea what you are talking about and are frequently dead wrong.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
... Name one that produces more food.

quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
I didn't argue that the US (the bread basket) had the most

[Confused]

quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
... it just exceeds it's needs....efficiency.

Edit to add:
quote:
Agriculture Statistics > Grains > Wheat production (per capita) (most recent) by country
...
# 1 Australia: 1,194.62 thousand metric tons per
# 2 Kazakhstan: 790.201 thousand metric tons per
# 3 Canada: 670.629 thousand metric tons per
# 4 Argentina: 341.444 thousand metric tons per
# 5 Turkey: 246.91 thousand metric tons per
# 6 Russia: 237.066 thousand metric tons per
# 7 United States: 215.024 thousand metric tons per

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/agr_gra_whe_pro_percap-grains-wheat-production-per-capita
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Believe me, as a previous US Navy Sailor, there's quite the black market for US rice in Japan.

The 'black market for US rice in Japan' is actually phenomenally negligable, to what extent it exists at all. Not that I would have believed you in the first place, since you never seem to have any idea what you are talking about and are frequently dead wrong.
That's why my Japanese roommate in college about shit himself to see the spread on my families table.

Try to buy a pound of beef in Japan....watermelon is a delicacy....they make them in cubes.

See if you can afford meat in most of the Asian world...much of the world for that matter. If I'm arguing with people from other countries, check the prices of food in the US to yours.

Of course, plantains, beans and rice,....the food of the slave is always cheap.

I bought 5 shirts in Bahrain for $100. The material cost %80. I asked,....a good worker could make 2 shirts a day.....how much did he/she make? I asked that question...they make room and board. These "TCN's" are happy to make room and board in a nation like Qatar or Bahrain...they starve where they come from. Not so unlike the illegal immigrants in the US who do the "jobs Amercians are unwilling to do".....for less than minimum wage.

Of course, the compassionate democrats defend this form of sweat-shop slavery by suing AZ and Joe Arpaio.

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Samprimary
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Absolutely nothing you just typed in any way addresses the issue of the 'black market' for United States rice. In the future, if you're going to "respond" to me with something that has nothing to do with what you first quoted, don't even bother quoting. It'll just confuse people even more.

And, with you, that's really saying something.

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