quote:Originally posted by MattP: Those are positions that are held by some radical environmentalists. They are fringe ideas, sure, but not necessarily signs of insanity.
That's why I was questioning whether he was insane, or just an extremist. Was he someone who wanted to die and used the extreme radical ideas as a means to that end?
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quote: Mourners wishing to give their final respects from all across the globe will be attending his funeral: The Lions, Tigers, Bears, Giraffes, Elephants, Froggies, Turtles, Apes, Raccoons, Beetles, Ants, Sharks, Bears (again), and, of course, the Squirrels.
quote: This guy was, to me, obviously in a lot of pain and extremely mentally unbalanced.
I don't disagree with this, but I'm curious where do you draw the line? Are all fringe ideas signs of mental distress? Is all violent behavior a sign of disease?
I think what happened was sad. But at the same time, it was extremely absurd. When I heard about his demands, I laughed and I don't feel bad about that. Regardless of his mental state, his demand list comes off as extremely ridiculous and that's amusing. I don't think that conflicts with finding the situation to be a tragedy.
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posted
Amanecer , No, I don't consider all fringe ideas or violence signs of mental illness. In this specific instance, it seems obvious to me that there was mental illness.
I also can get laughing at the absurdity of his demands. I'm taking exception to the mockery of this person.
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Notice, this statement and reference is from a .gov website? I suppose 25% should be supported by the rest. The hyper kid in class now has a disability.
My wife has suffered with stomache problems for years. She had a colonoscopy this week. They told her she had IBS. She's happy,....she knows what is wrong. What I wont tell her is, doctors use the term "syndrome" when they don't have an answer.
The "hyper" kid now has ADHD and is "disabled", deserving SSI. According to our own government, 25% of Americans have mental disorders......
I prefer the times of limited government, when Einstein was considered slow by his teacher, for not fitting in. Today, Einstein would be drugged and given SSI. Today, our government would've considered Einstein to be one of the 25% with a mental disorder and his parents would've been given the excuse to have low expectations of their "retarded" child.
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: She's happy,....she knows what is wrong. What I wont tell her is, doctors use the term "syndrome" when they don't have an answer.
*grin
Yeah, like that classic Down Syndrome, or Turner Syndrome, or Noonan Syndrome. Chromosomes are so complicated!
No, really, I know what you mean. A "syndrome" is basically a cluster of signs and symptoms, and in the beginning, that's pretty much all we have for most medical diagnoses. But understanding does evolve sometimes, even often. We may well be getting there for IBS. We certainly have for Down Syndrome
The gut as the "second brain," neurotransmitters and the like may well hold some answers for IBS, at least enough for progress now. The science is promising. But that may well be so tangential to be of little interest at this point in the conversation.
Just wanted to nod in the general direction.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Quote: "...An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year" ... I suppose 25% should be supported by the rest. The hyper kid in class now has a disability. ... According to our own government, 25% of Americans have mental disorders. ... ...and his parents would've been given the excuse to have low expectations of their "retarded" child.
Well, sort of. The thing about the initial quotation is that (if accurately cited) those are numbers of [prevalence] for a given year. That doesn't necessarily mean there was a problem for a full year, or even necessarily for a few full months. It certainly doesn't necessitate that a given person will have a problem next year.
Most people included in that number are able to function through the process, albeit not optimally. Many of them can function much more optimally with minimal assistance or accomodation. Many recover fully. That's a good thing.
I'm just saying that the numbers don't speak for themselves, and when we interpret them, we may read more into the story than is really there.
posted
When did the term AIDS originate...another "syndrome" without an answer.
If I remember correctly....doctors said it was a "gay disease"....at least until they learned you couldn't catch it for shaking hands with a girly sounding man.
Identifying common symptoms doesn't provide an answer. Of course, this is the root of all modern science,....observation.
Observing poor immune systems produces the label "AIDS", observing people with stomache problems leads to "IBS". Hyper children have ADHD. Once it's given the label "disease".....it's understood. Of course, alcoholism is now considered a "disease"....is that label political or medical?
All science is based upon observation...syndromes are the weakest of scientific definitions. Syndromes can't be replicated any more than the creation of life....ie proof of God. Yet my God-fearing wife finds solace in the IBS label....she knows the doctors know what her symptoms are. No truth or explanation there....the label will suffice.
Hyper kids have ADHD and the anal retentive have IBS.....how insensitive of me for pointing out what we use to call them through out the history of man.
Einstein is a retard....sorry,...ADHD.
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quote:Originally posted by CT: So, what's your take on the status of understanding regarding Down Syndrome?
Down Syndrome will have it's name changed the day scientists understand the impact of chromosomes.
We know they have different chromosomal levels, but we don't yet understand why that missing chromosome makes them all look and act the same. (Am I being stereotypical?)
The scientist that figures it out will have a "disease" named after him.
At least they aren't "mongeloids" anymore. The syndrome name is much more compassionate.
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mal, YOU lower expectations. You have a limited amount of knowledge on many subjects, yet you expound on many of them like you are the worlds foremost expert in them.
But don't let an actual observation influence you. Not when actual facts usually fail to.....
quote:Originally posted by CT: The thing about the initial quotation is that (if accurately cited) those are numbers for incidence in a given year. That doesn't necessarily mean there was a problem for a full year, or even necessarily for a few full months. It certainly doesn't necessitate that a given person will have a problem next year.
Fascinating, as always, CT. If I may, does that mean I'm only considered to have a mental illness when my depression is active, or just that I'm only mentally ill at the time?
It might sounds like an odd question, but personally, I still consider myself to have a mental illness when I'm not depressed. It's just dormant and waiting for its next trigger. Which is another stressor in itself, but them's the breaks. It is a very stupid disease. Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: PC terms only lower expectations for the human condition.
So, by your logic, I have higher expectations of a person with down's syndrome if I call him a mongoloid.
That you are wrong in your assessment is without question, but I am pretty interested in how you came to this hazy position.
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quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: If I may, does that mean I'm only considered to have a mental illness when my depression is active, or just that I'm only mentally ill at the time?
It depends on who you are talking to and what disorder you are talking about. Language is politically charged, always, and the language of psychiatry is both nuanced and complex. The number referenced in the quotation above [almost certainly] includes everything from major depressive disorder to brief psychotic disorder to substance abuse, and so on, and so on.
As a diagnosis, 1. Major depressive disorder (single episode) is diagnosed by the presence of one major depressive episode. There is also a separate diagnosis of recurrent major depressive disorder. For recurrent episodes, the disorder is there, and episodes of it can be retriggered. But some people do only have one episode in their lifetimes. For circumstances with a single episode in the past, one has major depressive disorder, but it is not currently active. (see below)
2. Brief psychotic disorder by definition has symptoms that last only between 1 day and 1 month, and (also by definition) there is a return to normal functioning afterward.
3. Substance abuse is defined as maladaptive pattern of behavior using substances in ways leading to significant harms, although not having fulfilled the criteria for dependence. Those harms may have only occurred once, and the person may never have abused substances afterward (contrast with "sustance dependence").
When one is said to be "suffering" from a mental illness, the language can indicate active episodes occurred. But this depends on who is doing the talking or writing, and it's always a matter of slippery language trying to capture information that is nuanced and complex. It also can include someone who has a diagnosis of major depressive disorder (single episode) with a single occurrence 5 years ago, and no problems with depression since. The latter sort of person is not the sort of person who would require the supports that the above poster attributes to him or her.
In fact, many of the people who may be included in that number do not require supports of any kind 1) any longer, or 2) most of the time, or 3) in an ongoing way. Many do, but that needs to be unpacked before the wild leaps of fancy taken here could be in any way substantiated.
Furthermore, whether you are "suffering" from depression between episodes is not something I'd rely on a report like this to decide -- by necessity, a summary report or summary statistics are going to take a more complex and detailed assessment and try to pare it down into understandable (short, brief, non-nuanced) terminology. So, outside the realm of statistics and in your own life, I'd personally say you get to make that call.
What's the difference between a Mongeloid and and a Down Syndrome child?
What's the difference between a Negro and and an African American?
What's the difference between a midget and a little person?
What's the difference between a retard and....
What's the difference between a hyper kid and the ADHD one?
PC terms only lower expectations for the human condition.
There will always be disruptive and hyper kids... they now have a label and excuse for their behavior.
Will they perform better under this form of compassion?
To be honest, I sometimes have a bit of trouble trying to parse out the points. Doing a set up like Aseertion: X, Evidence- A, B, C might help make some of these arguments more clear.
Right now I am reading this as
Assertion: PC terms only lower expectations for the human condition.
Evidence: -Labeling someone a mongeloid leads to higher expectations than labeling them down's. -Labeling someone a Negro leads to higher expectations than labeling them African American. -etc.
The problem is that the evidence just seems like more assertions without evidence so it could also be that this should be parsed as a whole bunch of assertions with no evidence.
In response, I would say that the PC labels are often more specific and less likely to encompass someone's personhood, whereas the less PC terms are more of who they are. Though the inclusion of race with disorders like Down's and ADHD I find a bit disturbing in general.
Specificity matters. As a tutor, if I get a kid tagged with untreated ADHD, I do have certain expectations. I know from experience that I am going to have to take some care in where I seat the kid, I am going to have to pay more attention to them, I am going to use blue tokens instead of white (would take a bit to explain this). However, I have no intention of excusing misbehavior- in many ways, that tag tells me that I need to be more vigilant with the kid- ex- I like to start the session by talking to the kids. Usually I just chat long enough to get them to relax, with no specific time limit. With a ADHD kid, I might set a timer and tell the kid, we can chat for 3 minutes. I am much clearer with my rules and expectations and much less tolerant of deviance. I also give positive rewards more frequently and their are some slight changes in how I give the lessons. I have found that under these circumstances, I can get more out of the kids. When I see the label ADHD, I assume nothing about the child's intelligence or ability, because the label has told me nothing about that. If the kid were instead labeled "retard" I would have no clue what to expect and how to modify my behavior.
In my experience, the PC term will allow more specific help, not excuse the behavior. I know I will have problems with X, so I need to compensate by doing Y. The less PC term is usually used to degrade and minimize the individual overall. It is not used to allow for compensation. A hyper kid is just a brat- nothing you can do about it. An ADHD kid has certain specific problems that can be dealt with using specific techniques.
With medicine, having a diagnose of IBS does matter. There are drugs that have been shown to work with people with that diagnosis and so now, your wife's dr will go through those meds and treatments. Without that diagnosis, the dr would be just making a random guess. So, yeah, we don't know exact details, but now we have some reasonable expectations.
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posted
I have IBS. As long as I avoid political OSC articles and things that make me angry, take my hyocyamine 2 times a day instead of 1 or not at all, don't drink coffee, or eat spicy food I'm pretty much OK. But there's a bit of a cycle. Hence, why I must not have political arguments with people or else I end up in terrible pain. Complete with ect.
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quote:Originally posted by CT: It also can include someone who has a diagnosis of major depressive disorder (single episode) with a single occurrence 5 years ago, and no problems with depression since.
So, to make sure I got it, the 25% is more the number of people who have been mentally ill at some point, rather than how many people you can expect to be currently mentally ill at any given time?
And I can see where depression would be a tricky one. I've only been seriously depressed once, but I've had mild to moderte depression several times. None of them lasted two years (unless this one sticks around another month, but I think it's breaking) so I'm not technically dysthemic - unless I misunderstood the two year requirement. It's certainly come and gone for a longer period than two years.
And my GP is no help. I just filled out a little sheet I could have gotten off the internet and got the advice that "People generally know when they're depressed". Ha! Yeah, afterwards.
When it happens again, I may have to break down and get a shrink to ask for some advice. Hopefully we'll have more money by then. Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by CT: It also can include someone who has a diagnosis of major depressive disorder (single episode) with a single occurrence 5 years ago, and no problems with depression since.
So, to make sure I got it, the 25% is more the number of people who have been mentally ill at some point, rather than how many people you can expect to be currently mentally ill at any given time?
I cannot answer your question.
I do not know. This was the point of my comments. I used the "may" and "can" and "would need to be unpacked" [and "not necessarily" and "not necessitate"] language because I do not know which reference is being cited, so I cannot evaluate it. And frankly it isn't something I'm willing to take the time to go dig through anyway.
The point I was making was that it was not clear -- just from what was written -- who said what, and what it meant. For that, you'd need to track back through any reporter's or summary website's words to the original data analysis to figure out what was really going on. Anyone who wants to dig that far has my blessing.
But there are multiple possible interpretations to the phrasing as cited in this thread, and assumptions were being made that 1) there was only one interpretation, and 2) that was at an extreme end.
quote:When it happens again, I may have to break down and get a shrink to ask for some advice. Hopefully we'll have more money by then.
Oh heavens, good luck. Depression is so nasty in part because it undercuts your very ability to deal with it right to the core. I hope things go better for you in the future.
quote: I prefer the times of limited government, when Einstein was considered slow by his teacher, for not fitting in. Today, Einstein would be drugged and given SSI. Today, our government would've considered Einstein to be one of the 25% with a mental disorder and his parents would've been given the excuse to have low expectations of their "retarded" child.
If this is related to the "Einstein failed 4th grade math" meme, it's a myth, he never failed. If it's about something else entirely, I have no clue. Carry on.
quote:anal retentive have IBS
"Anal retentive" is part of a disproved psychological theory and has nothing to do with IBS. As I understand it, "retentive" is the opposite problem from IBS.
quote:We know they have different chromosomal levels, but we don't yet understand why that missing chromosome makes them all look and act the same. (Am I being stereotypical?)
Yes. You are.
quote:What's the difference between a Mongeloid and and a Down Syndrome child?
What's the difference between a Negro and and an African American?
What's the difference between a midget and a little person?
What's the difference between a retard and....
(...)
Will they perform better under this form of compassion?
Yes. Significantly better. Scholarette has already done a pretty good job of explaining this, but there is also the fact that people perform better when they feel respected, and if you think a kid with a mental disability can't tell, I have some folks who'd just looooove to meet and educate you.
*****
Mal, I don't like whistling posts. So I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and let you know that the term "retard" as you are using it is highly, highly offensive. I'm asking politely that you stop using it.
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Language is politically charged, always, and the language of psychiatry is both nuanced and complex. The number referenced in the quotation above [almost certainly] includes everything from major depressive disorder to brief psychotic disorder to substance abuse, and so on, and so on.
