Seriously. That's bizarre. I'm not making any character judgments on her one way or the other. I'm just saying that I've never seen a major political figure fall apart quite so visibly and completely in this type of event. Losing your train of thought or blanking happens to everyone, but wow, what a time to have it happen at.
What happened afterward was strange as well. It would have been far less of a story if she had just recanted or defended herself rather than stand there looking absolutely lost and then running away. First off, where were her handlers? If they were absent to prove the point that she doesn't need handling, well, they certainly failed in that endeavor. She wasn't even particularly good at pivoting back to parroting party talking points, except a little bit here and there about evil unions and evil federal government, but even that felt forced and unclear.
It's almost painful to watch.
As a side note, she's blowing Goddard (the Democratic opponent) out of the water in the polls, and analysts don't see this performance changing that very much. I'm not even personally sure that it should, but, I will say that I find it troublesome that the part she blanked on in the opening was when she was talking about her accomplishments. "These are all the great things I've done for Arizona...uhhh, well um...you know, we helped a lot!" That's a little troubling. If she can't even remember what she did, why would you want her back? I mean unless you really want her to do nothing. I guess that would make Libertarians happy.
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I'm saying this as an outsider who knows nothing about Arizona state politics in general, but I can't believe that this isn't changing poll numbers. I don't care that she had a little brain-freeze at the beginning; that can happen to anyone. But the empty-headed look in her eyes when she was pressed on the beheading statement was, well, upsetting, coming from someone who holds a place of power like that.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I'm saying this as an outsider who knows nothing about Arizona state politics in general, but I can't believe that this isn't changing poll numbers. I don't care that she had a little brain-freeze at the beginning; that can happen to anyone. But the empty-headed look in her eyes when she was pressed on the beheading statement was, well, upsetting, coming from someone who holds a place of power like that.
Well it's a pretty red state.
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posted
It was really weird watching the challenger tout the low crime rate, and the incumbent playing UP violent crime.
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posted
Maybe she's taking lessons from the Grand Moff Tarkin school of governance:
quote:Governor Tarkin: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away. General Tagge: But that's impossible. How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy? Governor Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
This can only mean one thing: Jan Brewer is building a Death Star.
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posted
She's still a better choice thn Terry Goddard. He was raised by Jawas. Bring on Jan and her Death Star.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I'm saying this as an outsider who knows nothing about Arizona state politics in general, but I can't believe that this isn't changing poll numbers. I don't care that she had a little brain-freeze at the beginning; that can happen to anyone. But the empty-headed look in her eyes when she was pressed on the beheading statement was, well, upsetting, coming from someone who holds a place of power like that.
Well it's a pretty red state.
Very insightful commentary, that. Thank you.
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posted
Lifelong resident of Arizona here to help clear some of loose bits.
I'm not worried about beheadings in the desert perse, Im more concerned with not being one of the people who get a shallow grave in the desert no matter how they are killed. Its just a fact, people dissapear and the right people dont care. If some college student from Scottsdale goes missing its a red alert but the cops have no time for junkies hobos and illegals. Worse than that is all the dead left by the coyote's on the way here, men women and children left to dry by men so callous that it can be impolite to itterate the liberties they take with thier "cargo." The AZ/MEX border is something like a pressure cooker, the more you cap it the worse the pressure and the result went that lid moves just a lil bit. Mexico has murder on the streets of thier cities and whole towns where police are just gangsters in uniform, and the longer the cartels are allowed to freely prey on illegal immigrints in AZ the closer my home resembles Mexico City.
Crime... crime reports are a funny thing, because they are just reported crime. I dont really care about any statistics when it comes to trafficking in AZ. Drugs, weapons humans and sex slave trafficking, my home sees alot of it and it is ever so barely acknowledged by anyone with a position to lose. Drug addicts play in thier own little world in Phoenix, the police dont care enough to shake them down enough. A large homeless community, almost undistinguishable from the drug addict steal and beg for thier booze daily.
Economy, Brewer may be the governor of Arizona but I doubt she lives on the same budget as the vast majority of us under her governorship. To say that money-wise anything is differant in AZ is to lie, even before the recession we were a poor state and have been for quite some time. Hopefully the algea-fuel thing will kick up and provide desperatly needed middle income minimal education jobs for those of us who need a chance to earn our livings. Wages were always low, jobs were always hard to find and you could always be fired for not being liked by someone higher than you, and nothing has changed.
I cant truely itterate why I love my home, you have to see and feel it for yourself. But I have no faith in my local govt. and mostly bury my head in the gravel when it comes to idea of an honest person winning an election. Joe Arpiao is sheriff of the most populated and richest county, John McCain is the senator and Jan Brewer is the governor. You figure out the problem.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I'm saying this as an outsider who knows nothing about Arizona state politics in general, but I can't believe that this isn't changing poll numbers. I don't care that she had a little brain-freeze at the beginning; that can happen to anyone. But the empty-headed look in her eyes when she was pressed on the beheading statement was, well, upsetting, coming from someone who holds a place of power like that.
Well it's a pretty red state.
It really isn't anymore. It almost swung blue in the last presidential election.
----
That was painful to watch, I'd almost prefer she had said nothing, rather than lapsing onto talking points. Does that really impress anybody? Or rather, is it better than the alternative?
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The swing was the young vote, but as already proven the younger more liberal do not hold majority and more importantly do not have anyone worth voting for. Definatly willing to vote against McCain again though.
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posted
Young liberals aren't going to come out to vote against someone. They have to be motivated the way Obama motivated them in 2008. I don't know if he can do that again, and I don't see anyone in the pipeline that's likely to run (though there are motivating figures on both sides for that demographic) in the near term.
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quote:Gov. Jan Brewer (R) has put the kibosh on all future debates with her Arizona gubernatorial opponent Terry Goddard (D), after her rather embarrassing display at Wednesday's debate. "I don't believe that things come out in proper context in an adversarial atmosphere," she defended herself.
posted
Goddard can spend the next two months saying she's too afraid to debate him, and I doubt anyone will deny him.
The funny thing is, I think she actually has a point about debates, but context didn't really matter at all with her collapse. It was her opening statement! It's not like she was being challenged, she had an open floor to say whatever she wanted to. As for what happened afterward, that was akin to any of a million press events, and has nothing to do with a debate format.
Debates, for me anyway, tend to be next to useless. It's too orchestrated, too much parroting of pre-rehearsed lines and zingers that were clearly written before. The only thing you can hope for is that you perform better, and I mean that in the way I mean an actor puts on a performance. It has nothing to do with any qualification other than line memorization and delivery. The only time anything else matters is when the style is a bit more free-wheeling, and then we see how good they can think and speak extemporaneously, which is really the only thing I care about.
Obama and McCain had one solid, sweet debate that felt more unscripted than anything I ever remember seeing.
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Yeah, I have trouble answering questions when people ask me questions also. Thats why Im not responsible for the well being of others.
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I really like how much attention the pause gets, but realistically it's what she manages to put out which really gets noteworthy to me. Fudging out appeals to fear and stuff about headless bodies in the desert.
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Hmm- Arizona politician does something stupid. Wow, newsworthy item there. Growing up in AZ, my memory of politics was one embarrassment after another. Mecham, Symington- all guys to make you proud.
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AZ just gets more attention these days because their incompetence is now central to demonstrating why immigration reform is a sailed ship we're too late to get on board with, all while conservatives squander their goodwill with hispanics and doom themselves demographically over the next 20 years.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I'm saying this as an outsider who knows nothing about Arizona state politics in general, but I can't believe that this isn't changing poll numbers. I don't care that she had a little brain-freeze at the beginning; that can happen to anyone. But the empty-headed look in her eyes when she was pressed on the beheading statement was, well, upsetting, coming from someone who holds a place of power like that.
Well it's a pretty red state.
Very insightful commentary, that. Thank you.
Lol, I didn't mean to be offensive. I just meant that its going to be pretty hard to vote out an incumbent Republican there.
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For one thing, she has this job because Janet Napolitano selected her to take over. Before this she was Secretary of State. Which is still no easy job, but not one that requires quite as much public confrontation as this. I think she's operating over her skill set.
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I don't know if you can say Napolitano selected her. If Napolitano had a choice, she probably would have picked someone else. In Arizona, the line of succession for governor is SecState first.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I'm saying this as an outsider who knows nothing about Arizona state politics in general, but I can't believe that this isn't changing poll numbers. I don't care that she had a little brain-freeze at the beginning; that can happen to anyone. But the empty-headed look in her eyes when she was pressed on the beheading statement was, well, upsetting, coming from someone who holds a place of power like that.
Well it's a pretty red state.
Very insightful commentary, that. Thank you.
Lol, I didn't mean to be offensive. I just meant that its going to be pretty hard to vote out an incumbent Republican there.
Oh, yeah, I think I misread you a little bit then. Thanks for clarifying. Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Has it occurred to anyone that she might have had a microstroke or something? I know I get tongue tied a lot, and it's really frustrating, almost as if I was stuttering, except that no words come out. I know the word I want is in there, but everything comes to a complete halt. You can't fight the way your brain works.
That's what it looked like to me.
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That was actually my first theory. There's an expression that flits across her face at one point that I keep reading as "Oh, no. What is happening to my brain?!"
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I usually couldn't care less if an extreme right-wing politician has a bad day, but my heart goes out to her. That's got to be uncomfortable, to have that big of a brain fart on live television.
[ September 04, 2010, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: steven ]
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Yeah, schadenfreude can be great when you know that a right winger has been caught off guard and can't defend their position, but that isn't the case here.
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It's kind of cruel to be enjoying this or to make a big deal about it just because Brewer supports actually dealing with her state's immigration problem (and it is a problem: Mexico is dumping its underclass into the United States.)
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: It's kind of cruel to be enjoying this or to make a big deal about it just because Brewer supports actually dealing with her state's immigration problem (and it is a problem: Mexico is dumping its underclass into the United States.)
Their tired, poor, huddled masses, eh? Historically, I don't think they're alone in that regard.
posted
Ahh, when folks start using terms like 'underclass', it always conveys a message they do not intend.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Ahh, when folks start using terms like 'underclass', it always conveys a message they do not intend.
There's an underclass in Mexico and the Mexican government is dealing with it by placing it in the United States.
Look, immigrant quality matters, and illegal immigrants from Hispanic countries by and large are not high quality immigrants. That's why they have to be illegal: because they could not have received the clearance to immigrants going by the standards by which everyone else from non-Hispanic countries is held to, and which we presumably also have to legal immigrants from Hispanic countries.
Anyway, Hispanics are, by and large, more of a net drain than a net gain. Yes they work, but in their place America could have imported and could still import millions of people who work and aren't as problematic (i.e, requiring affirmative action/government minority set asides/welfare.)
There's the hope that the children of illegal Hispanic parents will considerably out perform their parents, yet this remains a fantasy. How long have Hispanics been in Southern California and just exactly what has been their contribution to that cultural heartland? How many Mexican authors can your name? Mexican musicans? Architects, mathematicians, scientists? Certainly there are instances of each but by and large the contribution of Mexicans to things that really matter is negligible.
Just compare the page for Mexican-Americans to the page for Chinese Americans:
The Chinese American list of famous Chinese manages to be more impressive -- and Chinese Americans are only 0.64–1.2% of the U.S population whereas Mexicans are (and it's probably fairly higher) 12.5% of the U.S. population. Mexicans have less human capital than the Chinese. Just imagine if instead of all those Hispanics the U.S got Chinese immigrants. We'd probably be in better shape economically AND we'd be better able to afford a more generous welfare state.
In any case, there's a case to be made for restricting endless immigration from Mexico. The fundamental problem is that liberals don't feel right saying "no...you can't immigrate here." But that's what the government does all the time. It's just so happens that the people who are rejected mostly don't come here anyway, and if they do and are deported than the deportation tends to be the end of it considering the distances involved. And most liberals are fine with this and live with it. Yet they can't bring themselves to support policies which would in effect place on Mexico/central American countries similar obstacles that would prevent being flooded by those countries' low-human capital people.
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quote: It's kind of cruel to be enjoying this or to make a big deal about it just because Brewer supports actually dealing with her state's immigration problem (and it is a problem: Mexico is dumping its underclass into the United States.)
You're starting with an assumption that I don't think is true, which is that people are making a big deal of this because of what Brewer has done with immigration in AZ. When in reality, I imagine many people are making a big deal of this because a governor made one of the most embarrassingly painful opening statements in a debate I've ever seen, then later when asked a question stood blank faced for an inordinate amount of time before running away.
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Honestly, I don't see that the first bit is that bad. It looked to me like she had a prepared set of comments and she lost her place. It was embarrassing, sure, but in and of itself not any indication that she's unfit for the job.
The second bit, well, she lied about something, got called out, and then tried to switch to her defined talking points. When that didn't work, she ran away. I look pretty unfavorably on that, but isn't that kind of common in politics? I know that it's easy to say that this is the Sarah Palin model, but really, it existed before Sarah Palin made it the primary way she dealt with things.
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quote: The Chinese American list of famous Chinese manages to be more impressive -- and Chinese Americans are only 0.64–1.2% of the U.S population whereas Mexicans are (and it's probably fairly higher) 12.5% of the U.S. population. Mexicans have less human capital than the Chinese. Just imagine if instead of all those Hispanics the U.S got Chinese immigrants. We'd probably be in better shape economically AND we'd be better able to afford a more generous welfare state.
Sure, I'll play along with your racist tripe for a moment, to highlight how easy it is to puncture and ridicule even by its own standards.
Chinese-American 'human capital' (the way you're using the term isn't odious or anything) is bound to be higher than Mexican-American simply because of selection process pressures that are higher that have nothing at all to do with the people themselves but the distances and difficulties involved.
Chinese-Americans, particularly illegal Chinese-Americans, are fleeing a country that is more oppressive than Mexico, in some cases is more poor than Mexico, must cross the world's largest ocean, assimilate into a smaller population in the United States, and cross a much larger language barrier than Mexicans. Mexican-American immigrants, particularly illegal ones, have much fewer hurdles to jump. You're not going to magically say 'no more Mexicans' and replace them with Chinese. So even by your own lights, your racist, offensive screed fails utterly.
And that doesn't even get into the foolishness of saying 'Chinese-Americans have more famous people', therefore they're better immigrants. Hey, JanitorBlade, how does obvious, offensive racism rate around here in terms of violating policy?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: The Chinese American list of famous Chinese manages to be more impressive -- and Chinese Americans are only 0.64–1.2% of the U.S population whereas Mexicans are (and it's probably fairly higher) 12.5% of the U.S. population. Mexicans have less human capital than the Chinese. Just imagine if instead of all those Hispanics the U.S got Chinese immigrants. We'd probably be in better shape economically AND we'd be better able to afford a more generous welfare state.
Sure, I'll play along with your racist tripe for a moment, to highlight how easy it is to puncture and ridicule even by its own standards.
Chinese-American 'human capital' (the way you're using the term isn't odious or anything) is bound to be higher than Mexican-American simply because of selection process pressures that are higher that have nothing at all to do with the people themselves but the distances and difficulties involved.
This refutes nothing I said and I pretty much agree with it. Selection matters. We're not selecting high-quality Mexicans but rather the ones who would have been rejected by the government have decided to move here anyway by the millions. And for some reason liberals are irate that some people would have a problem with this.
quote: Chinese-Americans, particularly illegal Chinese-Americans, are fleeing a country that is more oppressive than Mexico, in some cases is more poor than Mexico, must cross the world's largest ocean, assimilate into a smaller population in the United States, and cross a much larger language barrier than Mexicans. Mexican-American immigrants, particularly illegal ones, have much fewer hurdles to jump. You're not going to magically say 'no more Mexicans' and replace them with Chinese. So even by your own lights, your racist, offensive screed fails utterly.
So what? The argument is that more hurdles should be created so that Mexico's underclass (and those from other Hispanic countries) doesn't keep flooding into the U.S. And what's the point of mentioning what different hurdles Chinese immigrants go through? The point is that they're mostly approved by the U.S...same for all other Asian countries. Not so with Mexico. Do note that the great and tolerant Canada is not selecting Mexico's underclass as immigrants.
quote: Javier Saavedra, son of Mexican immigrants, is struggling to get a well-paying job after dropping out of high school and leaving behind gang life. Whether Saavedra and his peers succeed will have consequences far beyond immigrant circles: The offspring of Hispanic immigrants already make up one of every ten children in the United States.
quote: Not since the last great wave of immigration to the United States around 1900 has the country's economic future been so closely entwined with the generational progress of an immigrant group. And so far, on nearly every measure, the news is troubling.
quote:These Mexican immigrants are not upwardly mobile. They are poor and will stay poor.
Yes, your use of racist rhetoric and anecdote has certainly proven your premise.
And please kindly stop lying and saying I'm agreeing with you, since I'm not. I didn't say 'selection matters', I said you were full of crap when you said 'Chinese are better than Mexicans'. Which was the message you obviously intended to convey. As for the 'low-quality' Mexicans, we are selecting them. We hire them by the hundreds of thousands. They don't come here and clap guns to the heads of employers and say, "Hire me!"
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quote:These Mexican immigrants are not upwardly mobile. They are poor and will stay poor.
Yes, your use of racist rhetoric and anecdote has certainly proven your premise.
What racist rhetoric?
quote: And please kindly stop lying and saying I'm agreeing with you, since I'm not. I didn't say 'selection matters', I said you were full of crap when you said 'Chinese are better than Mexicans'.
I said that I agree with you (though I typed "agree" as "agrees"). Sheesh.
And its dishonest of you to use quotes around a phrase I didn't write.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Perhaps the lack of success of second generation immigrants instead speaks to a failing in our society which makes it almost impossible for the poor to succeed. Economists have done studies showing that in the land of opportunity, if you are born poor, you'll likely die poor (but in Canada and those other crazy socialist countries, your parents income matters far less so that isn't just a matter of genetic selection). But it is far easier to just claim racist BS than actually look at the complex issues regarding poverty, education, health care, etc.
Also, keep in mind, with Mexico's quotas and so forth, being legal can take over 2 decades. China has a lot faster waiting list.
ETA- from the article you listed it says that the European immigrants took 3-4 generations to get to the level of middle class, including a college degree, so it looks like Mexican immigrants are not that far behind the European immigrant's rate.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: [QUOTE] As for the 'low-quality' Mexicans, we are selecting them. We hire them by the hundreds of thousands. They don't come here and clap guns to the heads of employers and say, "Hire me!"
This is simply explained by tragedy of the commons. Americans were given the option of cheap labor and they took it, never mind what the long-term affects of letting in millions of uneducated Mexicans would be, and many individuals made the short-sighted decision to hire illegals so they could profit. However, policy could have been put in place which prevented these illegals from securing employment or even staying in the country. The shortsightedness of American employers is no defense of endless, low-human capital Latino immigration.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Perhaps the lack of success of second generation immigrants instead speaks to a failing in our society which makes it almost impossible for the poor to succeed.
Please suggest how this "failing" could be fixed.
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posted
Improvements in education, health care reform are two big ones. Credit banking reforms against companies that prey on the poor. Things like midnight basketball also could help. Help with babysitting so kids can stay in school, maternity leave (see recent case where woman had c-section, took 11 weeks off, failed to qualify for federal leave and despite her boss's promise to hold her job, was fired for missing too long and court upheld the companies decision).
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quote: ETA- from the article you listed it says that the European immigrants took 3-4 generations to get to the level of middle class, including a college degree, so it looks like Mexican immigrants are not that far behind the European immigrant's rate.
Listen, scholarette, don't go bringing in demographic facts into the discussion. They're just 'low human-capital' Mexicans.
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