FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » I just witnessed an assault on a muslim cabdriver (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: I just witnessed an assault on a muslim cabdriver
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
I was walking in midtown Manhattan on a date, around the corner from Bryant Park when I heard a man shouting from the other side of the street at a man in a car. I'm very into social psychology and the Kitty Genovese murder so whenever these situations present themselves, I kinda perk up.

I got closer, directly across the street from a white man pounding on a car, kicking tires and hitting the window of the car, shouting obsenities and telling a Muslim cabdriver that he's gonna knock his f-ing turban off of his head. Since the man was sitting locked in the car and he was banging on the car door, I made sure to position myself directly across the street so the man could see that there were witnesses, he kept walking off and coming back so I went to look for a policeman - but then I came back to the scene after the man had gotten out and spoke to the cabdriver to ask if he was alright. He seemed happy that someone cared, since a few people just walked right on by.

I know that there is anti-Muslim sentiment in NYC now, but it was pretty chilling and a little nauseating to witness it.

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
If the guy was actually wearing a turban, my bet would be that he's a Sikh.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
God damn. I'm currently working in Manhattan but haven't gotten a sense of what most people actually feel here.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
If the guy was actually wearing a turban, my bet would be that he's a Sikh.

That was my thinking as well. But when it comes to racism, most people don't do their research so as to hate more accurately.

edit: Thanks for intervening Armoth, that's exactly what I would expect a citizen to do.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Was it possibly a keffiyeh that was mistaken for a turban?

And possibly, did the taxi driver actually do anything to provoke the man, or are you sure it was a random act of anti-Muslim hatred?

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Derrell
Member
Member # 6062

 - posted      Profile for Derrell   Email Derrell         Edit/Delete Post 
A Sikh was mudered here a day or two after 9/11 happened.
Posts: 4569 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if he was Sikh or not. Also, I can't know if he did anything to provoke the man, I came on the scene as with the guy locked in his car, and the man yelling, kicking and banging on the car.

His girlfriend (I think) kept trying to get him to walk past the car, but he kept coming back and said anti-Muslim things.

I don't think he had driven them since he was in a parking spot (I doubt he parked after dropping them off) and he was also sitting in the backseat.

It wasn't a yellow cab, more like a car-service car.

BB - it depends on the neighborhood. It was midtown, there are tons of people around and it's the city that never sleeps. But where I live, it's pretty dangerous - if I see an assault happening? I get the heck out of there and call the cops.

I remember someone posting something about a cabdriver who was stabbed by a man recently over the mosque controversy. Honestly, I never expected this sort of sentiment from NYers.

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah the stabbed cabdriver was a pretty big story in the news. It might seem obvious that someone shouting anti-Muslim things might just be a random hate crime, but, I tend to find that when people are pissed, they'll say whatever they think to be the most offensive, and therefore, anti-Muslim slurs doesn't necessarily mean he's just happening upon the guy and targeting him for being a Muslim (whether he is or not).

The rest of your information though might be enough to make the hypothesis.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raia
Member
Member # 4700

 - posted      Profile for Raia   Email Raia         Edit/Delete Post 
I remember when I was in Paris about eight years ago, at the Pompidou center, with my dad, and we were sitting outside looking at a guidebook and talking. The book and the conversation were both in Hebrew, and there was a middle-aged man with a cane circling us, muttering under his breath. I understood enough French to know that it was all very anti-semitic, and his circling kept closing in bit by bit. I was really scared (I was about sixteen at the time), and my dad told me, in Hebrew, without changing the timbre of his voice, that if this guy didn't stop soon he was going to call the police. But luckily something distracted him, and he left.

I don't know about why this cab driver was being assaulted, but I am also a member of a race of people that has a tendency to get persecuted... and while it doesn't happen very often, it still happens and I know that from my perspective, if someone is bombarding you with racial slurs, it's hard to imagine that there was a different intent or provocation. But it's possible, I guess.

Oh, and I agree with the fact that even though he may not actually have been Muslim, many of the people who hate on principle don't take the time to actually research and categorize their hate, they kind of just jump right in. Either way, though, it's a sad story. [Frown]

Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
The stabbed cabdriver is an odd case in general and I still don't know whether it was a false flag attack or not.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post 
There is some very strident Islamophobia floating around these days even in intellectual circles. This blog is run by academic philosophers

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2010/09/thoughts_on_september_11.html#comment-152449

and features the following plan of action for America:

quote:
1. Halt Muslim immigration.
2. Revoke the visas of Muslim students.
3. Offer Muslim families $100K to return to the Muslim country of their choice.
4. Halt the building of mosques.
5. Halt the printing and distribution of the Koran.


Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The White Whale
Member
Member # 6594

 - posted      Profile for The White Whale           Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah. Academic Philosopher crazies:

quote:
What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: The Jihad and Liberalism.

Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
I would note the Statement of Purpose of the blog itself:
quote:
What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: The Jihad and Liberalism.

We are happy warriors, for our defense is motivated primarily by gratitude for what our ancestors bequeathed to us. We are hardly what the world calls “optimists,” for our sense of the crisis of our age is robust indeed; but despair is among the more fashionable sins today, and our hostility to it, too, is implacable. We put not our trust in princes, but stand on the Solid Rock, against which neither the tyranny of the Crescent nor the blank negations of Liberalism shall prevail.

Edit to add: (Bah, double-posted with the above)

I would note the very second post of the blog itself in April 2007 includes these thoughts.
quote:
What's wrong with the world? Well, we could start here, with the development of a school that is just inches away, as it were, from being a madrassa, in Brooklyn, NY, as a public school. It will be language-intensive in Arabic, focus on "Muslim culture," and be run by a woman beloved of CAIR. She is especially concerned to let us know that her school won't shy away from "sensitive issues" in the world, like the plight of the Palestinians and "colonialism."
The situation for Muslims has been getting worse for sure, but I don't think this particular blog is the best judge of a shift in sentiment.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The White Whale
Member
Member # 6594

 - posted      Profile for The White Whale           Edit/Delete Post 
Not even close.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
If you want to do something positive about it - even something small - check out this web site.

http://www.buckintolerance.org/about

I imagine this will appeal more to religious people.

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think that the average dude who is feeling islamophobic is drawing it from academic philosophers.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I imagine this will appeal more to religious people.

Well yeah.
quote:
We're mobilizing people of faith ... Faithful America is an online community of tens of thousands of citizens motivated by faith ... Interfaith Youth Core (IFYC) builds mutual respect and pluralism among young people from different religious traditions
We're like demographically excluded right out of the starting gate.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Hence the warning. So why must you be snotty about it? I let you know before you linked.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
*shrug* I'm just supplementing your imagination with an actual perspective. As to the latter, I reject your characterization.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
It isn't impossible that a non-religious person could want to support such a group any more than it would be impossible for a theist to support an atheist group that does good work. I am sure they would be delighted to accept your donation. So you are excluding yourself which is fine - and what I expected - but not my problem.

If their is a non-faith based group that you would like to link, feel free to do that without disparaging comments from me.

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
*L* I suspect that there are a great many people that would gladly take my money regardless of how they feel about me. That's not really in question.

I'm just assessing the "appeal" of the organization in order to substantiate your imagination. Nothing more.

Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amanecer
Member
Member # 4068

 - posted      Profile for Amanecer   Email Amanecer         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I'm just assessing the "appeal" of the organization in order to substantiate your imagination
*is an atheist who just signed the petition* I don't see harm in it and I do see benefit, so the appeal is there for me.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucous
Member
Member # 12331

 - posted      Profile for Mucous           Edit/Delete Post 
You see benefit in an Internet petition?
(To elaborate, I see both harm and benefit in giving money, just a net harm in total. I don't see really see either harm or benefit in an Internet petition)

Posts: 58 | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amanecer
Member
Member # 4068

 - posted      Profile for Amanecer   Email Amanecer         Edit/Delete Post 
I see your point about the efficacy of an internet petition. I was more saying that I see benefit in supporting a program that promotes interfaith tolerance regardless of whether one is faithful or not. Why do you think that the harm outweighs the benefit?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucous
Member
Member # 12331

 - posted      Profile for Mucous           Edit/Delete Post 
Concisely, I think that in an era where Obama can acknowledge "nonbelievers" alongside believers in an inauguration speech, a group that is supposed to promote co-operation with a mission statement that excludes nonbelievers is a bit of a throwback.

I don't want to encourage the mindset that "all faiths are ok as long as you're not non-religious" ala TomD's musings on the Boy Scouts.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I don't want to encourage the mindset that "all faiths are ok as long as you're not non-religious" ala TomD's musings on the Boy Scouts.
I don't want to encourage such a mindset either, though how much I don't want to encourage it depends on how far it goes. There is, after all, an attitude in the other direction of 'they're OK except for that pesky superstitious nonsense', though obviously it's not as much of an imposition being much more of a minority opinion.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Where do they say that being non-religious is not okay? They are, unlike the Boy Scouts, a group of specifically religious organizations (or do you object to those entirely?) working against religious intolerance.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucous
Member
Member # 12331

 - posted      Profile for Mucous           Edit/Delete Post 
I would say that I don't have anything against an organisation like a theoretical "Gay people against racism" group that specialises in reasoning against racism from a shared perspective.

I would have something against a "Everybody but Mexicans against racism" group. Past a certain point, I think there is a message sent about who you're excluding even if you're careful not to say anything explicitly about them.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Mucous:
I would have something against a "Everybody but Mexicans against racism" group.

Oh my god. I'm making this group today.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
*laugh*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DDDaysh
Member
Member # 9499

 - posted      Profile for DDDaysh   Email DDDaysh         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, on the original post, that's really scary. It's scary to see anyone get attacked, but when they're shouting racial slurs you know it's pretty much gone past any point of reason. I'm glad no one was actually hurt! - In a similar, though not as serious story - my friend's mother got spit on in the grocery store yesterday. She wears traditional Muslim dress, so I guess that's why. She's usually mostly a homebody anyway, so he's frustrated that she's even more afraid of going outside now.

:-) And I had a good chuckle on the "Everybody but Mexicans against racism" thing.

Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by DDDaysh:
She wears traditional Muslim dress

The veil weirds me out pretty badly. IMHO, it has no useful function. It's not religious expression. There's not a thing in the Koran about wearing a veil, and I consider the veil to be a security risk.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DDDaysh
Member
Member # 9499

 - posted      Profile for DDDaysh   Email DDDaysh         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think she veils, just the headscarf. However, I hardly think even a veil is a security risk at the grocery store!
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by DDDaysh:
I don't think she veils, just the headscarf. However, I hardly think even a veil is a security risk at the grocery store!

First it's the grocery store, then it's at Presidential speeches. It should be outlawed, period. Religious expression ends where public safety is at risk.

And yes, I do see veiled women at the grocery store regularly. That stuff is uncool, on so many levels...public safety, gender equality, and even basic communication. My hearing is poor, and always has been. As a result, I'm an excellent lip-reader. A strong Arabic accent combined with a veil makes it a real pain to communicate, particularly with older people.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
My hearing is poor, and always has been. As a result, I'm an excellent lip-reader. A strong Arabic accent combined with a veil makes it a real pain to communicate, particularly with older people.
Well, pick a reason, steven. Should it be prohibited for public security, or because it's inconvenient to you personally and you disapprove?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
My hearing is poor, and always has been. As a result, I'm an excellent lip-reader. A strong Arabic accent combined with a veil makes it a real pain to communicate, particularly with older people.
Well, pick a reason, steven. Should it be prohibited for public security, or because it's inconvenient to you personally and you disapprove?
Pick the reason you like. I'm not the only person who compensates for hearing loss with lip-reading. I'm actually lucky that it happened when I was so young. People who start losing their hearing late in life have to work much harder to communicate, because they don't have years of practice. I actually often memorize things people say, so I can use that information, along with lip reading, to help me reconstruct, in my mind, what they might be saying to me later. I don't think about it much, it's kind of second nature this far down the road. All that to say, I don't need one more barrier to communication, and there are a lot of other people with similar, or worse, levels of hearing disability who also compensate in multiple ways. Show some sensitivity, please? Thank you.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
My hearing is poor, and always has been. As a result, I'm an excellent lip-reader. A strong Arabic accent combined with a veil makes it a real pain to communicate, particularly with older people.
Well, pick a reason, steven. Should it be prohibited for public security, or because it's inconvenient to you personally and you disapprove?
Show some sensitivity, please? Thank you.
Wow.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
Steven, first of all, neither of us is in much of a position around here to be clamoring for sensitivity, alright? Second, my point in asking you to pick a reason was simply to make clear that your reasons for objecting to veiling seem to be changing, or at least growing, as the discussion continues, that's all.

Anyway, completely separate from the public security issue - and you've got some real argument there, I certainly grant - what you're essentially insisting on is that force of law be granted in your support to change the way other people dress so that you might find it more convenient in your day to day life. Now, I am sorry you are hard of hearing and have to lip read, though truthfully I do think lip-reading is pretty neat (though not when it's necessitated by hearing difficulty), but that's the way your argument sounds.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
It's not religious expression. There's not a thing in the Koran about wearing a veil

It doesn't have to be in the Koran to make it so that wearing it is a religious expression.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
That was a pretty odd thing to hear Steven say too. "It's not in the Koran, therefore it's not an Islamic religious expression." I wasn't aware he was an authority on the Islamic religion and what was and wasn't a part of it. Or any religion, in fact, but particularly not Islam.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
He's probably repeating something like:
quote:
A leading cleric at Egypt's prestigious Al-Azhar Mosque on Wednesday applauded France's ban on the face veil worn by some devout Muslim women, saying the niqab harmed Islam's image.

Abdel Muti al-Bayyumi, a member of an influential council of clerics at al-Azhar, said the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening for the eyes, "has no basis in Islamic law and there is nothing in the Koran or Sunna that supports it."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jNAnCNRui8FnoLVQ0OSJ8Mj9Qm6Q

(Not that I particularly care whether it is or is not when it comes to the law)

Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SoaPiNuReYe
Member
Member # 9144

 - posted      Profile for SoaPiNuReYe           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
It's not religious expression. There's not a thing in the Koran about wearing a veil

It doesn't have to be in the Koran to make it so that wearing it is a religious expression.
Well, then what does? Anything past the headscarf seems a bit misogynistic to me, especially if it's not in the Koran at all.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
Keep in mind that I consider the face/hair veiling to of course be the legacy of primitive, terrible, cultural subjugation of women, be they mandated by the FLDS, the Hasidic Jews, or various theocratic Muslim regimes across the world, or *whoever* — I'm completely non-discriminatory in the sense that I find it all primitive and stupid subjugation of women by hopefully out-of-date traditions clinging to oppressive, really dated theocratic weirdness. So to call it a bit misogynistic is even a massive understatement to me. It could be in the Koran and it wouldn't change that. I'm just saying that it is very clearly a religious expression by many, many women. They are doing it as part of what has been enculturated into them as their faith.

An act by government to specifically remove someone's ability to express their faith should pass a test of "do we have a worthwhile and serious reason that compels government to exercise a restriction against this?" — and it should be a really strict test. Absent a legitimately compelling reason, someone should be allowed to elect to wear a face veil if they want to.

I don't believe france has a compelling reason; they have anglocentric cultural jitters and growing islamophobia which leads to extremely dumb s*** across europe, like banning minarets. They're doing this because they are terrified of the loss of France's cultural identity to Islamic-heavy immigration, and it drives decisions like these. They will, of course, come up with contrived defenses of the act, like saying it is for 'security purposes,' but it's not the core reason, nor is it really convincing.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
That was a pretty odd thing to hear Steven say too. "It's not in the Koran, therefore it's not an Islamic religious expression." I wasn't aware he was an authority on the Islamic religion and what was and wasn't a part of it. Or any religion, in fact, but particularly not Islam.

No, I'm not a Muslim. That doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of the history of the veil. It's a cultural expression that gradually became part of Sharia law, hundreds of years after the Koran was written. Therefore, it's not part of religious expression. It's cultural.

But back to the hearing issue--the US has a fast-aging population that lives in a very loud world, between background music, machine noise, iPods, the constant blare of televisions, cars/trucks, etc.. We don't hear as well here, on average (as a result of both hearing damage from background noise/music, and our older population), and we are also often dealing with a LOT more background noise during day-to-day interactions with others. That background noise makes it harder for ANYONE to hear anything. The veil is not well-adapted to a noisier world.

But whatever. I don't think it'll ever catch on here, all that much.

For that matter, how does buying things in stores with credit cards work, if the clerk asks to see ID, and you're wearing the veil? Do you remove the veil, if the clerk is male? How about when you go to the DMV? How about if you're pulled over for a traffic violation? Do you remove the veil for the male officer? The veil just doesn't fit this society.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SoaPiNuReYe
Member
Member # 9144

 - posted      Profile for SoaPiNuReYe           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Keep in mind that I consider the face/hair veiling to of course be the legacy of primitive, terrible, cultural subjugation of women, be they mandated by the FLDS, the Hasidic Jews, or various theocratic Muslim regimes across the world, or *whoever* — I'm completely non-discriminatory in the sense that I find it all primitive and stupid subjugation of women by hopefully out-of-date traditions clinging to oppressive, really dated theocratic weirdness. So to call it a bit misogynistic is even a massive understatement to me. It could be in the Koran and it wouldn't change that. I'm just saying that it is very clearly a religious expression by many, many women. They are doing it as part of what has been enculturated into them as their faith.

An act by government to specifically remove someone's ability to express their faith should pass a test of "do we have a worthwhile and serious reason that compels government to exercise a restriction against this?" — and it should be a really strict test. Absent a legitimately compelling reason, someone should be allowed to elect to wear a face veil if they want to.

I don't believe france has a compelling reason; they have anglocentric cultural jitters and growing islamophobia which leads to extremely dumb s*** across europe, like banning minarets. They're doing this because they are terrified of the loss of France's cultural identity to Islamic-heavy immigration, and it drives decisions like these. They will, of course, come up with contrived defenses of the act, like saying it is for 'security purposes,' but it's not the core reason, nor is it really convincing.

Ah, ok. I totally agree here.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
No, I'm not a Muslim. That doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of the history of the veil. It's a cultural expression that gradually became part of Sharia law, hundreds of years after the Koran was written. Therefore, it's not part of religious expression. It's cultural.
This doesn't follow at all, Steven. "If it's not in the original text of a religion, it piece of expression cannot possibly be religious in nature." This might come as a surprise to you, but you as the largely ignorant* outsider, with what sounds like a pretty layman's knowledge of the subject, don't get to look at the thing and say, "Nope, this isn't your religion." I mean, c'mon. You can't expect anyone to take that seriously, especially not, y'know, the people whose religion you're trying to label themselves.

We didn't have Anglicans until centuries after Christ either, so clearly they're not religious, they're cultural, right? Just as a pretty easy example.

quote:
But whatever. I don't think it'll ever catch on here, all that much.
For a whole lot of reasons, few of which have anything to do with hearing, thankfully. We're the culture that exports, over time, feminism, not imports misogyny.

quote:

For that matter, how does buying things in stores with credit cards work, if the clerk asks to see ID, and you're wearing the veil? Do you remove the veil, if the clerk is male? How about when you go to the DMV? How about if you're pulled over for a traffic violation? Do you remove the veil for the male officer? The veil just doesn't fit this society.

What does that have to do with you personally? Are you a clerk in a store asking for ID from a woman wearing a veil? Are you working the DMV? Are you a police officer? No, you're just a dude on the street who objects to the veil for cultural reasons (which I share, incidentally), and who has some hearing loss.

And anyway, you don't really need new law to deal with these problems, so far as I can tell. If I'm not mistaken, you have to show your face if you want to drive, if you want to purchase certain things and go certain places, etc.

-----

quote:
Keep in mind that I consider the face/hair veiling to of course be the legacy of primitive, terrible, cultural subjugation of women, be they mandated by the FLDS, the Hasidic Jews, or various theocratic Muslim regimes across the world, or *whoever* — I'm completely non-discriminatory in the sense that I find it all primitive and stupid subjugation of women by hopefully out-of-date traditions clinging to oppressive, really dated theocratic weirdness. So to call it a bit misogynistic is even a massive understatement to me. It could be in the Koran and it wouldn't change that. I'm just saying that it is very clearly a religious expression by many, many women. They are doing it as part of what has been enculturated into them as their faith.
I agree on both counts-that it's bad, and that it's a religious expression on the part of both the men who indoctrinate and the women who both do it and indoctrinate themselves to it.

quote:

An act by government to specifically remove someone's ability to express their faith should pass a test of "do we have a worthwhile and serious reason that compels government to exercise a restriction against this?" — and it should be a really strict test. Absent a legitimately compelling reason, someone should be allowed to elect to wear a face veil if they want to.

Likewise too, for the time-tested reason that the only way to protect other rights we like more than the right to subjugate women is to protect that one.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
I find it sad that I'm being lectured on my lack of religious tolerance. I might guess that I'm one of the most religiously tolerant people on this message board. Of course, I am extremely unhappy with threats to my physical safety, probably much more so than average. To be clear, I have no problem with Islam. I have a problem with not feeling safe. The veil..doesn't...make...me...feel...SAFE. I'd be more than happy to stop criticizing the veil if the very same types of Muslims who support it weren't also so likely to hate me because I'm a non-Muslim and an American. Their extreme intolerance has produced a slight negative reaction in me. How exactly does that make me wrong? Am I not allowed to be concerned for my own physical safety? That's some bull.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I might guess that I'm one of the most religiously tolerant people on this message board.

Yeah. You're so tolerant that you expressed dismay because you thought that your actions here resulted in some religious people eating healthier and living longer.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Of course, I am extremely unhappy with threats to my physical safety, probably much more so than average. To be clear, I have no problem with Islam. I have a problem with not feeling safe. The veil..doesn't...make...me...feel...SAFE.
That's okay though, because the veil doesn't actually make you verifiably less safe. You're just afraid of them and the people who wear them.

Your individual phobias do not a good test for the necessity of government restriction make.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I might guess that I'm one of the most religiously tolerant people on this message board.

Yeah. You're so tolerant that you expressed dismay because you thought that your actions here resulted in some religious people eating healthier and living longer.
Actually, no. Religious people can live as long as they like. The longer, the better. You know why? Because they may gain wisdom through experience/knowledge/etc., and cut down on the fanaticism. What bothered me was the thought that they might be able to reproduce more efficiently, which would be, in my worldview, a terrible thing to help them to do. In my humble opinion, the only people who should be having large numbers of children are open-minded, tolerant, non-religious, non-fanatical-atheist, intelligent, and wise people who are excellent parents, and who can adequately educate/feed/clothe their children. However, such people almost never reproduce, or only have 1 or 2 kids. OTOH, Osama and his veil-wearing wives have created, what, 54 little future suicide bombers?

It's not like I'm comparing bin Laden to, for instance, Mormons or Catholics. That's not entirely realistic or fair. However, excess population is still excess population, and often leads to war/disease/famine. These are factual realities. I realize now, in the 5+ years that have passed, that it's a complex issue, filled with shades of gray, not black and white. However, you seemed to have misread my post explaining my reasons for making thread(s) about overpopulation prior to talking about nutrition, though, so, consider this a clarification, not that it matters greatly.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2