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Author Topic: Morals behind White Lies/Sugar Coating
Rawrain
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Due to how well a debate(?) about this was going in another topic I decide to drag that tangent over to its own topic so it can be discussed through and through.

As I stand, I believe brutal honesty is just as effective (and may not be considered as nice) as sugar coating the truth.

I also believe both of these methods of persuasion do not always have the desired effect that a person assumes.

( I would also like to point out my brutal honesty isn't just saying what the problem is at hand, I also use metaphors and sarcasm as my medium to make the truth easier to understand(and I also do it, because I can't control it /: ))

- I need some examples /: I'm too lazy to type some and I am pressed for time, my breaks are only 10 minutes every hour... from 45 to 55 on de-clock.

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Mucus
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Everybody lies.
Even House.

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Rawrain
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Yes on occasion I do to save my own behind, but I mean lying to other people to make them feel better or to get them to do something, which I don't lie about XD

[ November 10, 2010, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Rawrain ]

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TomDavidson
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I think rudeness is morally neutral. Depending on the situation, it may be more or less effective.
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Rawrain
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Rude is to be interpretted by the individual, for me it's rude to sugar coat opinions about me, rather than just saying flat out, what is meant.

It's simpler to understand, and simpler to say, so it's actually easier to be brutal.

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shadowland
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What do you think is gained from being 'brutally' honest rather than merely being honest?
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Rawrain
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Preventing confusion between what is said and what is meant and it is easier on the speaker and interpreter.
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Herblay
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Truth and "honesty" are subjective. Sure, there are absolute truths (the sky is blue, clouds are comprised of water vapor), but it is usually only beneficial to lie about subjective truths (unless you're talking about full-on deceipt).

There are many perspectives with which you can look on "honesty". Most subjective lies are true within a certain point of view. The key is to be honest to a perspective that is advantageous to the situation and to ensure that you can explain any discrepencies that arise.

Social engineering aside, "brutal honesty" is just an arrogant way of saying that your opinion of a situation is superior to any other interpretations.

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shadowland
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Do you think the brutal part, whatever that means, is necessary in order to communicate clearly and effectively?
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
... I mean lying to other people to make them feel better or to get them to do something ...

I doubt this. You're never lied about a gift you've received? You've never lied about having "read and understand all the rights and restrictions described in the license terms" before installing software?
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Rawrain
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quote:
Originally posted by shadowland:
Do you think the brutal part, whatever that means, is necessary in order to communicate clearly and effectively?

Saying what you mean, not what the person(s) you're speaking to want to hear.
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Tresopax
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If by sugar-coating we are talking about telling the truth but in a very positive light, then I think sugar-coating is often more honest than being brutally frank. That's because you also have to take into account the emotional implications of what you are saying - meaning the inferences made by the person you are talking to in response to what you say (and in response to their natural emotional reaction to what you say.)

For instance, let's say we are talking to an author and we say "Your latest book was absolutely terrible." The author's reaction to this might be think you are also implying you think he is a terrible author, or even a terrible person. It may be taken as an insult even if no insult is really implied. If all you are saying is that you don't like that one particular book, then you'd be better off sugar-coating the answer a bit - "Your latest book wasn't your best." The author knows that this implies you didn't like his book, but also knows you are suggesting he has good books too.

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Armoth
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I think that you can be honest and sensitive to the other person's state of mind simultaneously. If you're too lazy to be sensitive, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot by being honest, because human nature is to put up all defense mechanisms, even when the other person is "just being honest."

Sensitivity to the other person's state of mind, if looked at from a cold and rational eye, is simply a strategic Trojan horse, to sneak past the other person's defense mechanisms to a place where your truths will actually be heard.

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Rawrain
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My cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to, this I told her and she gets it but she still persists to ask me how she looks I tell her like I see it and she accepts it as it is, an opinion.

Another instance is when my friend have things stuck in their teeth, I tell them flat out something is stuck in there, of course you either tell them or not, but I would much rather have them pick it out then than have it sit in their teeth all day having them embarrass themselves unknowingly.

True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):

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Ryoko
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
Another instance is when my friend have things stuck in their teeth, I tell them flat out something is stuck in there, of course you either tell them or not, but I would much rather have them pick it out then than have it sit in their teeth all day having them embarrass themselves unknowingly.

True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):

You seem to care about your friend's feelings. Otherwise, you wouldn't have told him about something being stuck in his teeth.
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Tresopax
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quote:
True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
Not caring about feelings will make it hard to communicate, though, because the other person's feelings will alter the message they are getting from you if you don't account for those feelings.
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Rawrain
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Treat others the way you wanted to be treated ne'?

Things stuck in teeth is gross; I don't mind others telling me I have something in my teeth, usually I am the only person that will say something so I do.

I don't "much" care about their feelings, for instance I won't hold back saying somethings in their teeth no matter who's around for any reason.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):

If you don't care about others' feelings, why should they -- or we -- care about yours?
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Rawrain
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You shouldn't!
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rivka
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Then why tell us you are hated? Why the sad face? Are not both requests for sympathy?
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Rawrain
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I'm hated because my intentions seem unclear to them because people usually assume I mean something else, so it always seems like I have an alterier motive or something .-.
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rivka
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That was not my question.
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Rawrain
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I'm hated because I'm misunderstood, and peoples feelings don't stop me from saying most things when it is not appropriete(which is sometimes funny and sometimes the exact opposite).
The sad face is to express emotion toward the statement.
It's not I that decides if you care, that's all on you.

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shadowland
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So it would seem that not caring about the feelings of the people you consider to be friends has not in fact helped you to be able to communicate clearly and effectively, even to the people that would be in the best position to be able to understand you.
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Olivet
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I must admit to having been tempted by the lure of the brutal honesty path. I generally find people who are honest in this manner, without ego or agenda, to be very comfortable and relaxing to be around. Maybe this is why I'm so comfortable with Aspies.

That said, I find it easier to get things done with 80% of the human population if I proceed with more care and attention than really comes naturally to me. If it didn't work, I wouldn't bother. But it does work, and I will not reject tact as a tool when it is unquestionably more useful to me than 'brutal honesty.' Pragmatism trumps minor annoyances, in my book. [Wink]

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):

I'm really not surprised.

Human beings are by our very nature social animals. It is extremely difficulty for humans to be happy or even content without genuine friendships. I can not speak for everyone, but for me meaningful, loving relationships with other people are the most rewarding thing in life. To have a loving relationship with someone, you have to care about them. You have to care whether they are hurt, or pleased, or embarrassed or angry. You have to care about how they feel. By refusing to care about how other people feel, you are depriving yourself of one of the most important aspects of being human.

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Rawrain
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For people who understand me and get to know me, I am very nice and generous, but also very talkative and rude.
Talkative confuses me, because I don't talk often but when I do it's hard to silence me- feel my wrath >;D

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TomDavidson
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In my experience, you can safely replace "when you get to know me..." with "I'm too lazy or selfish to actually..." in most sentences.
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Darth_Mauve
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You said that brutal honesty is the most effective solution.

That depends on what effect you are looking to achieve.

Yes, it the effect is to stop from having to look at that gross thing hanging between someone's teeth, then being honest with them is the most effective.

Being brutally honest, however, implies that you tell this person that they have something stuck in their teeth, very loudly, in front of a lot of people, not in order to get it removed, but in order to look superior to others and to make that person look foolish. That is where the brutality comes from.

On the other hand, say Joe Shmoe is over weight. Brutal Honest Person would say, Joe--Your Fat! Lose weight or you will die.

Joe Shmoe will see that as an insult. He'll get defensive. He'll deny your advice and probably take an extra large bite of what ever he is eating.

Honest Man will say, "Joe, you've bulked up since we last met." He won't say that Joe looks good, but he won't antagonize him either. The result, Joe is more likely to follow Honest Man's advice for losing weight.

Before you can say what is the most effective solution you have to decide what effect you want. Telling the girl you want to date that "Man those pants make your backside look huge" is not going to be effective in getting you that date. Telling her that they don't flatter her gorgeous figure just might.

Some people use honesty as insults.

Some people fear honesty and react badly to it.

If you don't want to be mistaken for the former, and actually be effective with the latter, than some sugar coating is required.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
On the other hand, say Joe Shmoe is over weight. Brutal Honest Person would say, Joe--Your Fat! Lose weight or you will die.
I want to briefly point out that there is even a distinction to be made between saying "lose weight or you will die" and "if you are dangerously overweight and aren't willing to let the government control your food supply, you should kill yourself for our net benefit."
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capaxinfiniti
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
for instance I won't hold back saying somethings in their teeth no matter who's around for any reason.

this isnt brutal honesty in my opinion, its simple politeness. and i feel this example is trivial when considering the level of honesty one uses when expressing thoughts and opinions. brutal honesty: you have something in your teeth and you look like a complete moron. fact - stuff in teeth. this is objective. subjective - you look like a moron. it wouldnt be considered sugar coated if you didnt state your opinion.

another thing, discretion and honesty arent mutually exclusive. where you says something, the level of you voice and tone all communicate a lot to the person for which the words are intended.

ETA: what darth_mauve said. he said it first. [Smile]

[ November 10, 2010, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: capaxinfiniti ]

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think rudeness is morally neutral. Depending on the situation, it may be more or less effective.

How to you come to this, given that rudeness isn't an absolute, but differs on a case by case basis?

Isn't the assumption that being rude will hurt someone's feelings? And wouldn't intentionally hurting someone's feelings be bad?

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Rawrain
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Nah I would more along the lines of "Joe if you don't lose the weight you're going to end up in the hospital" all depends on how large Joe is aswell for people just slightly bigger than the average I encourage exercise and better eating... like coughing loudly when they grab for many unhealthy snacks... but even if Joe was grossly overweight exercise might actually cause him a heart attack or worse, better to start by eating better and exercising little bit before you start hopping into the heavy exercising.
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Armoth
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I think Rivka's comments to you, Rawrain, were the most interesting in this thread. You DO care how people feel about you, and while you probably are misunderstood, I would bet that you often misunderstand others.

You desire to be understood and loved, same as everyone else.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
It's not I that decides if you care, that's all on you.

I don't believe you. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. You want sympathy but are not willing to extend it to others.

Hopefully Tom is right and you will grow out of this.

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Rawrain
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It's not sympathy it's an intelligent arguement I want, which some are providing and you're trolling >_>
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advice for robots
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Rivka, that troll.
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jebus202
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Rivka, Rawrain doesn't appreciate your honest opinion of him, he would have preferred it if you could have said things a little nicer and taken account of his feelings.
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Rawrain
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Nah, I just prefer more on-topic-ness instead of trying to debunk what I mean from what I say.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by jebus202:
Rivka, Rawrain doesn't appreciate your honest opinion of him, he would have preferred it if you could have said things a little nicer and taken account of his feelings.

Bingo!

(What does it mean when I agree with jebus? Is that a sign of the apocalypse?)

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
Nah, I just prefer more on-topic-ness instead of trying to debunk what I mean from what I say.

I'm pretty sure everyone who posted on this thread (aside from you) agrees with what Rivka said.

So now that you're faced with honesty, will you confront the REAL issue instead of using your own defense mechanisms of pretending feelings don't exist and operating purely on intellectual arguments? Because I think it's more intellectually honest to operate with a true read on the lay of the land and to admit to yourself that feelings and ego are an important part of dialogue and should be recognized as an element to be considered in conversation. Brutal honesty, under that assumption = incomplete communication.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Rivka, that troll.

[Big Grin]
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jebus202
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
My cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to, this I told her and she gets it but she still persists to ask me how she looks I tell her like I see it and she accepts it as it is, an opinion.

Rivka is serving the same purpose here. [Smile]
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Rawrain
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I'm more upset about wasted time, I have a girlfriend who gives me* all the attention I need .-.
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
I'm more upset about wasted time, I have a girlfriend who gives me* all the attention I need .-.

Then why are you posting on a forum. Are you talking to us? Or to yourself?
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Herblay
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
My cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to, this I told her and she gets it but she still persists to ask me how she looks I tell her like I see it and she accepts it as it is, an opinion.

Another instance is when my friend have things stuck in their teeth, I tell them flat out something is stuck in there, of course you either tell them or not, but I would much rather have them pick it out then than have it sit in their teeth all day having them embarrass themselves unknowingly.

True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):

The real issue isn't that your "cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to". This is your opinion. For you to tell her that in a "brutally honest" fashion is just you exhibiting judgemental behavior. The fact is that you are judging her according to the standards that YOU devise. From a certain perspective, you're acting superior and lording that superiority over her.

If you're going to make a judgement call on someone's behavior, you need to be sensitive. "In my opinion. . .", etc. Behavior is relative, after all.

Then again, if she was getting fat (like others are referencing), she would probably know it already. It would be both rude and pointless to point it out.

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capaxinfiniti
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rawrain, there are a number of people in this thread who are trying to impress upon you the importance of communication and civil dialogue and help you understand the nuances of social interaction. we realize this lesson was unsolicited but you would do well to at least consider what is being said. regardless of your aspirations in life communication is essential. if youre unpleasant to talk to you will find few people will want to talk to you. if youre ok with that, thats fine. but you did come here and are actively posting.. i think some on this forum have already dismissed you as quickly as you arrived. which is unfortunate but only if you understand why.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Isn't the assumption that being rude will hurt someone's feelings? And wouldn't intentionally hurting someone's feelings be bad?
Not necessarily. Or, rather, that might be the assumption, but it might be wrong -- and even if it's right, intentionally hurting someone might still be the least of a number of possible harms.

That said, choosing to potentially inflict harm when there is no possible gain to anyone by doing so is pretty difficult to justify.

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The Rabbit
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Rawrain, You gave this thread the title "Morals behind Lies/Sugar Coating". I pretty sure every post in this thread is addressing that in some way.

Caring about other peoples feelings IS a moral imperative. A person who truly doesn't care about others feelings is, by definition, a sociopath.

Of course caring about others feelings isn't the only moral imperative and there are circumstances where you may need to hurt someones feelings to be ethical. But that isn't the same as not caring.

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Rawrain
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The big question is whether lying to make someone to make them feel better, a better choice then telling the truth and making them feel bad.
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