posted
I'm not much into MMA (mixed martial arts) but I was curious, so I turned it on. The fighters square off like boxing and I'm like, okay, this could be good. Then they dance and dance and dance, nothing happens, and then they are down, hugging each other. One of them even looks bored! They are barely punching, no knees, no elbows, no head butts, nothing!
It's not that I am rooting for someone to get hurt, but I thought this was supposed to be a fight, not an aggressive hug contest!
Maybe I just don't get it.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't get it either, it is MMA but they are using mostly 'grappling' techniques which are very effective to subdue an opponent but absolutely not fun to watch... the reason why neither of them really moves is because it's a waste of time trying to get out of the grab unless you can do it in one shot, struggling would just exhaust the fighter and make 'em weak.
I don't recommend any of these fighting/wrestling showa, if you really wanna see mixed martial arts in the work, you should search for exhibitions. ----- Aggressive hugging = Yes.
Posts: 461 | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not really much of an MMA fan, but I've watched enough to know that this kind of fight happens sometimes, but isn't really the norm.
Some fighters prefer to fight upright the entire time, some prefer to fight on the ground in a grappling style, and some prefer a mix of each. The fights with two "strikers" are ones that you'd probably have fun watching. There are some impressive knock-outs where a well timed kick to the head has ended the fight. Not something you can get watching boxing.
One of the reasons MMA intrigues me is that you can see these styles used against eachother, and it gives a reasonable demonstration of what martial arts techniques actually work. The history of MMA has sort of been an arms race of different tactics and techniques, its pretty interesting on a meta level.
It seems like something I could see myself getting into, but I've still only watched a handful of fights.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: I don't get it either, it is MMA but they are using mostly 'grappling' techniques which are very effective to subdue an opponent but absolutely not fun to watch... the reason why neither of them really moves is because it's a waste of time trying to get out of the grab unless you can do it in one shot, struggling would just exhaust the fighter and make 'em weak.
Most refs are pretty good about resetting the fight back to standing if no progress is being made on the ground. That wasn't always the case though, so if it was an older fight you'll see a lot more slow ground time. But even in new fights it's up to the ref's discretion. And some fighters will still keep bringing the fight to the mat without pushing hard for a submission or KO in hopes that it will help boost their score if the fight lasts for a decision. It kind of sucks to watch, but it happens if you catch a bad fight.
That said, I think the ground game makes MMA much more interesting than boxing. The extra dimensions added by grappling mean that a good match is extremely dynamic, and it allows a lot of interesting variety to fighters' gameplans.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
MMA is a much more "real world" form of combat than boxing and as such, fighters will go to the ground more often than not. I've been a boxing fan for a long time and still prefer it over MMA.
For what it's worth, a high level MMA fighter will almost always beat a boxer under MMA rules, or when there are no rules at all. Conversely, top boxers destroy MMA fighters within the confines of traditional boxing.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Speaking as a former wrestler who was always surprised to win fights with boxers in high school and college, I'm actually glad that MMA helps demonstrate the enormous advantage people who know how to wrestle have over people who just know how to punch, at least in a real fight.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah it's funny because people who don't really follow either sport seem to think there's some kind of ongoing debate around the superiority of boxing or MMA fighters. It's apples and oranges.
To your point though, in a real street fight the wrestler/grappler will usually make short work of a straight-up boxer/puncher. As long as he doesn't get clipped coming in. Part of what turns me off in MMA is the whole idea of hyper-extending things that aren't meant to bend in that particular direction. Granted, guys usually tap out before that point but it still gives me the willies.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The MMA grappling I've seen has usually resulted in a guy tapping out very quickly as something of his gets bent in a way that hurts or scares him.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Yeah it's funny because people who don't really follow either sport seem to think there's some kind of ongoing debate around the superiority of boxing or MMA fighters.
There is, but not among people who are really worth listening to.
I have an internal debate over which one is more boring. MMA is usually pretty boring.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The first star of MMA was Hoyce Gracie, a brazilian representing his families jujitsu who eventually retired becuase he had validated his art and himself through competition. This was when MMA was a mix of differant martial artists rather than mostly athletes with no training outside of MMA's brazilian jujitsu (if Hoyce Gracie is the best why not copy him) mixed with weakened muay thai strikes. Back then there were no gloves, plenty fighters wore clothing instead of underwear and all of them were pre-existing martial artists from varied specialties.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I studied Judo as a child, Shotokan and a little Aikido later on. Most of my training is in Shotokan which is "traditional" karate, that is, a lot of strong stances, power strikes and flowing from one move into another.
What confuses me about MMA fights is that when they get each other down, they mostly do not strike each other with elbows, knees and head butts. Of course these might be illegal moves, I'm not sure.
For me, if you were able to take me down, I guarantee you would not be pleased with the result, even if you gave as good as you got.
Not even including strikes meant to cause permanent damage (eye gouge, strikes to throat or temple, ripping off ears, etc) being at that close proximity to someone who has been trained and is willing to cause harm is not a good idea.
I just don't see these fighters fighting.
It's almost like they are trying to pin each other in the middle of a fight and totally giving up on actually...fighting.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I see them as athletes performing a sport, thats about it. I find the padded gloves insulting, any trained martial artist knows the damage that can come with a single perfect punch but MMA difuses that and those who train so hard on perfecting that ability from viable in those competitions.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are many martial arts that depend on the damage of a single punch, they hone the entire body for this one purpose but the martial art sport makes them useless by disfiguring thier knuckles. Its like making a muay thai fighter wear baggy jeans down to his knees, debilitating a valid and wide used skill is not very sporting.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
MMA has to diffuse punches, and a whole host of other things. And it (or the next popular equivalent of rasslesport) will continue to add a number of constraints on the physical impact and allowed attacks in order to keep two human beings bludgeoning themselves in a dynamic and interesting enough manner to hold an audience.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ScottF: To your point though, in a real street fight the wrestler/grappler will usually make short work of a straight-up boxer/puncher. As long as he doesn't get clipped coming in.
In the zombie apocalypse, though, the wrestler/grappler will be screwed.
Posts: 1087 | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:What confuses me about MMA fights is that when they get each other down, they mostly do not strike each other with elbows, knees and head butts.
You must not have seen very many fights then. This is an entire major strategy, called "ground and pound".
I'd say at least half the fights I've seen involve some form of ground and pound. I'd guess its at least as common as going for a submission.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: MMA has to diffuse punches, and a whole host of other things. And it (or the next popular equivalent of rasslesport) will continue to add a number of constraints on the physical impact and allowed attacks in order to keep two human beings bludgeoning themselves in a dynamic and interesting enough manner to hold an audience.
Isnt the point of it all to watch two men bludgeon each other?
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
But the weapons disciplines will fare well in the zombie apocalypse, Dead Rising has shown us how.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: What confuses me about MMA fights is that when they get each other down, they mostly do not strike each other with elbows, knees and head butts. Of course these might be illegal moves, I'm not sure.
For me, if you were able to take me down, I guarantee you would not be pleased with the result, even if you gave as good as you got.
I just don't see these fighters fighting.
It's almost like they are trying to pin each other in the middle of a fight and totally giving up on actually...fighting.
Yes, the strikes you mention above are illegal in MMA.
You could track down a local MMA organization or club and give it a shot. Then you could get answers first hand as to why things seem to slow down and/or end when the grappling starts.
Perhaps your Shotokan training is something nobody's ever run into before and you can begin dominating the sport. I promise you I will buy your t-shirt if this happens.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: You must not have seen very many fights then. This is an entire major strategy, called "ground and pound".
You are correct sir, I've seen two or three matches, not really enough to judge the whole sport on. I'm glad to hear that this is a "normal" tactic though, thanks for the info.
quote:Originally posted by ScottF: Yes, the strikes you mention above are illegal in MMA.
Perhaps your Shotokan training is something nobody's ever run into before and you can begin dominating the sport. I promise you I will buy your t-shirt if this happens.
How can they so limit these guys? I don't agree with AchillesHeel about padding, I mean, you don't want to kill each other, but no elbows, no knees, they should call it kickbox/wrestling instead of MMA.
I'm pretty sure this "Perhaps your Shotokan training is something nobody's ever run into before and you can begin dominating the sport." is sarcasm, and perhaps it is well placed. I am not professional fighter and am sure I would be torn to small whimpering pieces if I were to fight even two weight classes down without extensive training.
I'm still having t-shirts printed out though.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: You must not have seen very many fights then. This is an entire major strategy, called "ground and pound".
You are correct sir, I've seen two or three matches, not really enough to judge the whole sport on. I'm glad to hear that this is a "normal" tactic though, thanks for the info.
quote:Originally posted by ScottF: Yes, the strikes you mention above are illegal in MMA.
Perhaps your Shotokan training is something nobody's ever run into before and you can begin dominating the sport. I promise you I will buy your t-shirt if this happens.
How can they so limit these guys? I don't agree with AchillesHeel about padding, I mean, you don't want to kill each other, but no elbows, no knees, they should call it kickbox/wrestling instead of MMA.
I'm pretty sure this "Perhaps your Shotokan training is something nobody's ever run into before and you can begin dominating the sport." is sarcasm, and perhaps it is well placed. I am not professional fighter and am sure I would be torn to small whimpering pieces if I were to fight even two weight classes down without extensive training.
I'm still having t-shirts printed out though.
Good pickup - there was definitely a wink in there. I'm no expert on MMA rules but I'm pretty sure for knees and elbows (knees, anyway)stuff is mainly restricted to when an opponent is down.
It used to be less restricted but Dana White has marketed UFC brilliantly and the rules probably make the sport appear more palatable for mainstream audiences.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember seeing the first UFC match on cable. Where...
1) One guy knocked the teeth out of another guy... literally.
2) Royce Gracie rolled around on the ground for... well... pretty much the rest of the show.
To me, "fighting" is #1 above, and at the time it did seem rather barbaric. But it was Pay-Per-View and didn't have the theatrics of wrestling and was billed as "no rules" (they did have some rules, but still). It was as real as you could get.
Then the Gracie fight came on and it seemed to last an eternity. He grappled his opponent to the ground in the first ten seconds, then spend the next five hours just hugging the guy, looking for the opportunity to grab something and get a submission.
What's funny is that, looking at the UFC page, his longest fight was only four minutes. But it felt like FOREVER, and was hardly exciting.
I just didn't get it at the time. Every time I tune in while channel surfing, they're rolling around on the floor... I still don't get it.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:How can they so limit these guys? I don't agree with AchillesHeel about padding, I mean, you don't want to kill each other, but no elbows, no knees, they should call it kickbox/wrestling instead of MMA.
Elbows and knees are very much permitted in UFC. I'm not sure where Scott is getting his info. A large portion of the "ground and pound" strikes I've seen are using their elbows.
From the wiki page:
quote:and then striking the opponent, primarily with fists and elbows...
posted
From a martial arts perspective, it's an interesting attempt never-ending search to find a way to effectively teach/learn/demonstrate/practice a fundamentally dangerous skill without anybody getting seriously hurt.
From a spectator sport perspective, yeah, it can be rather uninteresting for long periods of time.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Isnt the point of it all to watch two men bludgeon each other?
Yes. And if it's actually completely unrestrained bludgeoning, it's usually over pretty quick with severe or career-ending maiming often involved on one or both sides.
So it gets pruned back. and carefully molded again and again to become, invariably, a highly artificial and constrained sort of bludgeoning which keeps getting more constrained in response to things which hurt the commercial viability of the sport. If matches homogenize into the the same outcome over and over again, if they start seeing an overabundance or totality of the same conclusion/finishing moves that the contestants are gunning for, it gets pruned back to force diversification. MMA is still going through these paces.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, there needs to be pruning, and rules, otherwise it's not a sport. It's just two guys committing assault.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't watched much MMA/UFC fights and none recently but I was watching from time to time in the early days. What I remember is the emergence of the wrestlers and it made perfect sense to me.
Really good wrestling is not an easy or quick to pick up endeavor. To really excel at it takes a lot of time and training to learn all the techniques. Take that wrestler and teach him how to drop an elbow and throw a punch and in a few days, you have one hell of a fighter.
Now, try taking a guy that has spent years learning all the great striking techniques but has little or no wrestling experience. It will take yet more years to teach him wrestling. Until then, get him on the ground and control him properly and all his skills are completely neutralized.
To the karate guy, please understand I am not putting you or your skills down when I say this, but what you have to understand is what a good wrestler can do to neutralize you on the ground. If he ties you up properly, you don't have the space to get the leverage you need for an effective strike. Sure you can hit him, but it has no power. Plus, your attempt to hit him may be just what he needs to grab that free limb and get you in a submission hold.
And there is why a fighter can seem too timid on the ground. All it takes is the slightest slip and you can lose the fight in an instant. No one is going to hold out while his elbow is being dislocated. Seriously, give it a try sometime. Find a good wrestler and have a friendly match with him. You may be surprised by just how effective he can be.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Well, there needs to be pruning, and rules, otherwise it's not a sport. It's just two guys committing assault.
More to the point, it's that MMA still struggles with finding its own balance and is going through the same motions of every other commercialized bloodsport in that it wants to prolong and diversify the, uh, 'gameplay.'
quote:Plus, your attempt to hit him may be just what he needs to grab that free limb and get you in a submission hold.
Add in the fact all the strikes which would do enough damage quickly enough to be effective enough to open yourself up to a submission hold are illegal or impossible with gloves and wha-la! Makes perfect sense.
quote:To the karate guy, please understand I am not putting you or your skills down when I say this...
No offense taken. Personally I prefer guns. Fighting isn't a game, it isn't a sport, it's what you do when someone is trying to kill you.
All these rules that make MMA boring are what keep the fighters alive and relatively safe. I'm for those rules.
But there in lies the rub. MMA, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, etcetera ad nauseum are not "real" they are a game, or a sport, if you wish.
Because real fighting has no rules, no bell, no ref, and more often then not, no one wins at all, or at least being maimed for life is a "win" over being dead.
No matter who you are, no matter what skills you have or weapons you own or level of situational awareness you possess, there will come a day when you are outmatched.
Best way to win a fight is to never get in one at all.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Stone Wolf: in response to your first post, there are loads of face crushing hits in MMA. If you want to see it in the raw you could watch the first few UFC competitions. Since a Brazilian named Gracie won several using grappling, it has become a keystone to all MMA fighting techniques. If you meet people that follow it or participate in it you will learn there so really a lot to it, even when it looks like they are just laying on top of one another.
Posts: 813 | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Well, there needs to be pruning, and rules, otherwise it's not a sport. It's just two guys committing assault.
More to the point, it's that MMA still struggles with finding its own balance and is going through the same motions of every other commercialized bloodsport in that it wants to prolong and diversify the, uh, 'gameplay.'
So it'll get tamer.
I'm not sure it'll get tamer. I think it's gained wide enough acceptance that the rules will stay largely consistent.
I also think the safety rules in place have cost the sport in terms of diversity of, as you say, gameplay. That said, those rules are definitely a good idea.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think commercial MMA is in the same place that televised poker was in a few years ago. If it starts down the same line of fadding out its audience, you'll see some changes to keep the end product dynamic and enticing enough to keep MMA active on television. This has plenty of precedent, including the 2005-06 rule changes in the NHL (including two-line passes and shootouts to break up neutral zone traps) that changed the nature of the game significantly.
Along the same vein of predictions: I wonder how many years it's going to take FIFA to get off their hands and implement instant replay ruling.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I studied Judo as a child, Shotokan and a little Aikido later on. Most of my training is in Shotokan which is "traditional" karate, that is, a lot of strong stances, power strikes and flowing from one move into another.
What confuses me about MMA fights is that when they get each other down, they mostly do not strike each other with elbows, knees and head butts. Of course these might be illegal moves, I'm not sure.
For me, if you were able to take me down, I guarantee you would not be pleased with the result, even if you gave as good as you got.
Not even including strikes meant to cause permanent damage (eye gouge, strikes to throat or temple, ripping off ears, etc) being at that close proximity to someone who has been trained and is willing to cause harm is not a good idea.
I just don't see these fighters fighting.
It's almost like they are trying to pin each other in the middle of a fight and totally giving up on actually...fighting.
Aikido is my favorite, as far as being very effective while not being a very violent way of defending yourself, but it doesn't mean it can't be XD I remember my step-dad trying some of the moves on me and I realized with just a little bit more of a tug he could have easily broke my arm..... As in MMA I was always thinking that the fighters were trying to use Aikido, but bombed it /:
Posts: 461 | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry but you guys sound silly. It's like watching 5 minutes of football and complaining that all a quaterback does is give the ball to a running back to progress a few yards at a time. I'd find that boring as hell too.
There is such a thing as YouTube nowadays... if you're interested in a sport, it's easy to view a few clips and enjoy the better moments of fights, which regular viewers wait for, just like a football fan waits for a 40 yard touchdown pass.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
