I was watching Borgias yesterday. It would have made OSC's head explode from all the sex everyone kept having. But what freaked me out was
spoiler!
That kid was 12 YEARS OLD AND THAT BRAZEN HUSSY HAD JUST BEEN WITH THE KID'S BROTHER AND SHE WAS LIKE LET'S DO THIS AND HE WAS 12!!!! AUGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! WHAT THE HELL?!?!
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Shockingly, OSC's last book is very sexual. He has a 20ish girl almost rape a 12 year old boy. And there's all these sex scenes going down on Westil.
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IIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE I hate rape scenes. I have no problem with some nice, normal, two people having sex scenes, but rape, SQUICK! HORROR! URG!
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I'm also fairly confident she took off her clothes and he went "WOW!" and that was, as they say, that.
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quote:You rarely hear someone say "I stopped watching that show - it had too much <x> in it. for anything but sex/nudity or profanity.
I stopped watching 24, because it had too much supposedly "justified" torture in it. I stopped watching Charmed, because it had too much supposedly justified fatalism in it.
I don't mind sex, nudity or profanity -- some shows (like GOT) use it to properly portray sexual and profane characters, others (like Spartacus) use it pornographically: but that's okay, I don't mind porn either.
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quote:You rarely hear someone say "I stopped watching that show - it had too much <x> in it. for anything but sex/nudity or profanity.
I stopped watching 24, because it had too much supposedly "justified" torture in it. I stopped watching Charmed, because it had too much supposedly justified fatalism in it.
I don't mind sex, nudity or profanity -- some shows (like GOT) use it to properly portray sexual and profane characters, others (like Spartacus) use it pornographically: but that's okay, I don't mind porn either.
It is still mind boggling that 24 could show such gruesome, graphic, torture. One bear breast for half a second in a violent sport game and the country is in an uproar. Frankly I think the world would be a much better place with more naked people and less displays of violence.
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I mean, it's still OSC. He's not going to be graphic, but they do talk about it as rape within the book.
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Huh. Have no interest in the show, but I thought it was about the Borgia family of the 1400s and 1500s?
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I think "it was too long" and "it seemed force" and "they could have eliminated it without changing the story" and related complaints are all a proxy for a moral discomfort with nudity.
Um, nice theory but no. In my case "it was too long (that's what she said)" and "they could have etc., etc...." usually aren't proxies for anything other than boredom and frustration at wasted screen time that would be better spent on characters/development that I care about.
Sorry for the Michael Scott ref. but I literally couldn't help myself.
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Rivka, there's a misunderstanding. They're talking about a sex scene in OSC's latest book, apparently set in the 21st century, in which a woman in her 20s has sex with a 13 year old boy.
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I have no interest in the book. My question was to clarify the possible implication that a minor boy's "enthusiasm" would make sex with him something other than rape. I was asking to see if that was what Carrie meant to imply. If so, I would object that even if a child says, "WOW", it is still rape.
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It certainly is statutory rape, but you lessen the meaning of the word "rape" to call two eager participants in a sexual encounter just "rape" if one happens to be underage.
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I'm sure there are several priests and some scout leaders who would agree with you. They and you are wrong.
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quote:Originally posted by Jake: Rivka, there's a misunderstanding. They're talking about a sex scene in OSC's latest book, apparently set in the 21st century, in which a woman in her 20s has sex with a 13 year old boy.
They don't have sex. She is naked and tackles him, but the other people in the house stop her before she has her way with him.
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kmbboots...there is a difference between a teenager who is enthusiastic about having sex with someone who is over the age of 18, a young child who is convinced that having sex with an adult is the "right" thing to do through the use of lies and misplaced trust and violent non consensual sex.
The first is called statutory rape, the second is child molestation and the third is rape.
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quote:Originally posted by Jake: Rivka, there's a misunderstanding. They're talking about a sex scene in OSC's latest book, apparently set in the 21st century, in which a woman in her 20s has sex with a 13 year old boy.
Ah. Too many threads in this thread. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Um, nice theory but no. In my case "it was too long (that's what she said)" and "they could have etc., etc...." usually aren't proxies for anything other than boredom and frustration at wasted screen time that would be better spent on characters/development that I care about.
But plenty of things waste screen time. No one starts threads titled "Are there too many chase scenes in today's TV shows?" or "Do we hear too much internal monologue in TV shows?" When we complain about an inappropriate amount of content it's almost always nudity/sex. (I'm now imagining an XKCD comic charting Google results for permutations of "Is there too much <*> on TV?" for various ridiculous subjects.)
I'm not saying this as some sort of criticism of uptight prudes. It's a problem I experience myself, usually with a show that I would love to share with my kids but which has an uncomfortable amount of nudity in it. I'm wondering at my own discomfort here as well as the rest of y'all.
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If all these things are simply "rape" then why did more specific language to describe those situations develop at all?
Someone very close to me was violently rapped by strangers, and she would also disagree with you that all forms of sexual abuse should be classified by the word of what happened to her.
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quote:Someone very close to me was violently rapped by strangers
Was one of them an old dirty bastard? Or a ghost faced killer?
Seriously, though. Sex without consent is rape; this includes situations both involving open lack of consent as well as inability to give consent.
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Stone_Wolf, I did not say "simply"; rape is a complicated thing. But it is still rape. I am sorry for what happened to your friend, but do not discount the trauma of those abused or exploited as children or teenagers either.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I have no interest in the book. My question was to clarify the possible implication that a minor boy's "enthusiasm" would make sex with him something other than rape. I was asking to see if that was what Carrie meant to imply. If so, I would object that even if a child says, "WOW", it is still rape.
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I was referring to "The Borgias," where there is no explicit child sex (nor even physical contact), and the thirteen-year-old is fully clothed whilst a woman disrobes. I have no idea what OSC's scene is about.
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I have a friend who was date raped while unconscious. I know she still considers herself to have been very much raped and the fact that it was someone she thought cared a little about her made it an emotional betrayal as well as a physical thing.
I have read accounts online of people who had sex at 13 and there is a lot of baggage and hurt and betrayal and a very clear feeling of violation in there.
Every rape is different and brutal and traumatizing in its own way. Debating whose rape was the most damaging seems a bit silly to me. It seems like an attempt to make the other forms less serious and less socially unacceptable and repulsive. He's not really a rapist because...
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I have no interest in the book. My question was to clarify the possible implication that a minor boy's "enthusiasm" would make sex with him something other than rape. I was asking to see if that was what Carrie meant to imply. If so, I would object that even if a child says, "WOW", it is still rape.
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I was referring to "The Borgias," where there is no explicit child sex (nor even physical contact), and the thirteen-year-old is fully clothed whilst a woman disrobes. I have no idea what OSC's scene is about.
Ah...I thought you were referring to JonHecht's post. I do think that 13 year olds were "older" then than now. Still...
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I have no interest in the book. My question was to clarify the possible implication that a minor boy's "enthusiasm" would make sex with him something other than rape. I was asking to see if that was what Carrie meant to imply. If so, I would object that even if a child says, "WOW", it is still rape.
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I was referring to "The Borgias," where there is no explicit child sex (nor even physical contact), and the thirteen-year-old is fully clothed whilst a woman disrobes.
Aha! See, I was right!
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Was one of them an old dirty bastard? Or a ghost faced killer?
I don't know what this means, so I am trying not to assume anything as it seems possible that you are making light of a very serious situation. Please explain.
quote:...do not discount the trauma of those abused or exploited as children or teenagers either.
Using specific terminology in no way discounts the trauma. We are having a discussion of semantics.
quote:Debating whose rape was the most damaging seems a bit silly to me. It seems like an attempt to make the other forms less serious and less socially unacceptable and repulsive. He's not really a rapist because...
To an extent I agree, to an extent I do not. Firstly, I don't think anyone was debating which is the most damaging. But I do feel that if a 17 year old's parents press charges against her 20 year old boy friend for sex which she was a willing participant in, it is just not the same thing as a child who is molested by a trusted acquaintance or someone being violently forced into sex or someone being drugged and taken advantage of.
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But Stone Wolf, even where you gave what you believe was more specific terminology, you used it wrong. A child who is convinced to have sex with an adult and do so is not simply child molestation. Molestation does not necessarily involve penetration. Legally there are different levels to rape true. When you say statutory, you are saying that you don't have to look at the level of consent- all that matters is did sex occur. The burden of proof is different. When you drop the statutory aspect, then you look at consent issues. If violence also occurred, there will likely be an additional charge alone the lines of assault.
The 17 year old with boyfriend is why Romeo and Juliet laws are out there. That is not considered rape by most standards because it is assumed meaningful consent is posssible.
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quote: Molestation does not necessarily involve penetration.
Neither does the word "sex" only mean penetration.
quote:When you drop the statutory aspect, then you look at consent issues. If violence also occurred, there will likely be an additional charge alone the lines of assault.
I don't understand what you are getting at here.
I looked up "Romeo and Juliet" laws, and they are a great idea, and I am very happy that we have added another level of concern for justice into our justice system.
quote:Seventeen is past the age of consent in most places;
Not where I live.
quote:Each US state has its own age of consent. Currently state laws set the age of consent at 16, 17 or 18. The most common age is 16.[41]
* age of consent 16 (31) : Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia
* age of consent 17 (8): Colorado, Illinois, Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Texas
* age of consent 18 (12): Arizona, California, Delaware, Florida, Idaho, North Dakota, Oregon, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming.
posted
The statement was "most places". The statistics you cite agree completely.
What's more, some of the states where the absolute age of consent is 18 may have laws that extend the age of consent downward for certain cases. For instance, you see Indiana has 16 recorded as an age of consent, but the law is written such that a 17 year old could have sex with a 15 year old and neither be guilty of any crimes (basically, as the law is written, the age of consent if those involved are under 18 is 14).
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quote:The statement was "most places". The statistics you cite agree completely.
Isn't that instantly obvious? I never said she was wrong, just that...I happen to live in an 18 consent state.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: It is still mind boggling that 24 could show such gruesome, graphic, torture. One bear breast for half a second in a violent sport game and the country is in an uproar. Frankly I think the world would be a much better place with more naked people and less displays of violence. [/QB]
I'm with you. It's easier to have a scene shooting someone in the face on a TV show than showing a bare breast, which, when you think about it, everyone likely to watch is significantly more likely to see one in daily life than the other. (But I live in New Orleans. We have naked bike races here. "Oh, look. The neighbors are naked again. Ho hum.")
Stone_Wolf_ - Samp was naming rappers as a joke (in dubious taste), mocking the typo in your previous post ("rapped" for "raped").
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I can say that I won't watch Game of Thrones and I turned off Rome (as a classics student!) after one episode because of the sex and nudity. It ruins a show for me, on multiple levels: I don't want to see it, it is almost always objectifying and exploitative (and "condemning" characters for being the same doesn't let the show off the hook), and it lowers my opinion of the storytelling abilities of the showmakers.
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quote:But all of them are rape. If one cannot give consent, one has not given consent.
The idea of a minor being unable to give consent is purely regulatory. It is very difficult to judge whether or not the older partner has manipulated the younger partner, so we ban all such acts.
That does not mean it is in principle impossible for a young adolescent to enjoy healthy sex with an adult.
In other words, the law against statutory rape is a good law, because of the stakes. This does not mean there is anything inherently moral or immoral about the act it bans.
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quote:Um, nice theory but no. In my case "it was too long (that's what she said)" and "they could have etc., etc...." usually aren't proxies for anything other than boredom and frustration at wasted screen time that would be better spent on characters/development that I care about.
Wait, you're bored by breasts and blood? LoL. I understand outrage, but boredom? You're either sad or lying.
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quote:Stone_Wolf_ - Samp was naming rappers as a joke (in dubious taste), mocking the typo in your previous post ("rapped" for "raped").
Thank you Olivet.
I am very angry to hear this...not that samp and I have gotten along in the past, but to openly mock a loved one raped on the basis of a typo strikes me as beyond the pale.
I really do not know how to react other then to say this: samp, it is not funny, and you have crossed over the line.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I stopped playing the game "BioShock" as the 50s naivete twisted into something sinister and evil, the gore and maniacal laughter gave me nightmares...I wasn't expecting it, as a friend gave it to me on loan saying "Here, you'll like this."
Also I don't think the point of the scenes is "Tyrion likes whores" more like, Tyrion longs to be loved, but does not trust anyone to love his twisted form and family money for real, so he baths in comfort for hire to feel the shadow of actually being wanted and loved.
That is a very accurate description of Tyrion.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I totally agree with scifibum on that...
I was watching Borgias yesterday. It would have made OSC's head explode from all the sex everyone kept having. But what freaked me out was
spoiler!
That kid was 12 YEARS OLD AND THAT BRAZEN HUSSY HAD JUST BEEN WITH THE KID'S BROTHER AND SHE WAS LIKE LET'S DO THIS AND HE WAS 12!!!! AUGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! WHAT THE HELL?!?!
I loved how they highlighted that scene with the milk he was drinking. I liked that scene. It didn't shy away from what arranged marriages really were. Selling your children for power and wealth.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I am very angry to hear this...not that samp and I have gotten along in the past, but to openly mock a loved one raped on the basis of a typo strikes me as beyond the pale.
Sorry. No offense intended.
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I have struggled with this Samprimary, I know you love a good snarky jab at anyone, and while we do not see eye to eye on many a thing, I have never seen you as a stupid person, in fact quite the opposite.
So I accept "Sorry." but I have to ask, if offense was not your intention, what was your intent? You are smart enough to know that it was an offensive thing to say, and of all the people who regularly post on this board, I am not exactly known for my thick skin or ability to take comments about my loved ones in stride.
I'm not trying to make more of this then need be, but I truly wonder: where exactly your head was at when you said what you said?
ETA: Request rescinded. Apology accepted. Moving on.
posted
SW, I am almost certain that Sam's thought process was "Gee, that's a funny typo. Let me make this mildly amusing joke." Let it go.
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