posted
You know, those things might be God's will. In fact, I am pretty sure they are. So, not so evil. You are working towards the Kingdom of God. Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote: God never meant for there to be death at all.
You know, he didn't have to put that tree there. I'm sure there was somewhere else it would have looked just as nice.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I much prefer rejecting God and external morality and substituting your own internal morality.
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posted
Come on, the Gods left us...they took their advanced tech, got back on their ships, and left...only returning for the gold bribe the U.S. government is paying them to keep them away. Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Bella, in all the planet, there was only one single thing that was forbidden. One single tree. How is that so unfair? Adam and Eve were given the same freedom of choice the angels were given, and that God possesses Himself. How can that freedom of choice be real if there is no possibility for disobedience?
Of course, it was not the tree itself that doomed Adam and Eve. Satan, speaking through a snake that he possessed, deceived Eve, encouraging her to think that God might be keeping back from her something really good. Without this temptation, Eve probably would never even have conceived the idea of doubting God's goodness, in view of the goodness of Paradise all around her that God had given them to live in and enjoy. It was doubting God's goodness that led her to disobey God's one and only prohibition.
But again, Satan was only allowed to tempt Eve with his lies and half-truths at that one place, at the one forbidden tree. Had God not allowed even that--prevented Satan from having any access to humanity at all--then Satan would have claimed that God was being unfair to him.
You see, there is a great dispute between God and Satan, and in order to put a final end to sin so it never arises again, He must prove Satan wrong to the satisfaction of all other intelligent beings God has made in the universe, on other worlds as well as the angels. In order to do this, God has chosen to give Satan enough rope to hang himself with, so to speak.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
God has to prove things? That's not a very glorious role you give your god.
Do you have any kids Ron? Let's say you expose two electrical wires in the middle of a room and tell your 3 year old to not touch them, given your kid has no comprehension of electricity. Then you allow another 3 year old to play with the same colorful, fun, but not hot wires in the corner tempting your kid of doing the same. Then your kid touches the electrified wires and dies. Is it the 3 year old's fault or yours?
How about instead of hooking the wires up to the grid's 110V line, you connect them to a little battery operated zapper and when your kid touches the wires, being tempted by the other kid, it learns a very valuable lesson?
See, if you don't understand the consequences of a choice, you're not making the choice... and it's not free will.
And also the whole thing where I bare the sin of one person's choice, let's say 6000 years ago is also kind of bizarre for my brain. Would you torment and beat your 3 year old because your high school kid got a girl pregnant? Or extradite the baby when it's born to survive on its own in Uganda because of it's father's bad choice?
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posted
Slavim, there is even a formal theological term for what I am advocating: theodicy. It means God voluntarily allows Himself to be put on trial.
God maintains that He, as Creator, is the only standard of true righteousness. Satan disputed this, and claimed that angels, since they were created with perfect natures, were just as righteous as God. So he broke with God and went his own way, advocating that those who followed him could evolve into godhood in their own right.
Had God simply destroyed Satan, then all the other intelligent creatures in the universe might have in the back of their minds the question, "Could it be that Satan was right? Is God unfair and selfish, reserving some things only to Himself arbitrarily?"
The only way God can answer Satan's charges and accusations and inuendoes to the satisfaction of all other intelligent beings--and still respect their freedom of choice--is for Him to allow a complete demonstration of the truth, revealing the working out of the true nature of the system of belief Satan was advocating. And in the process, God demonstrated His own unselfishness and self-sacrificing love by the means in which He found a way to save humanity without compromising His justice.
When the unfallen angels and other sentient beings throughout the universe witnessed Satan exulting in glee at the torment and murder of the Son of God, their last shred of sympathy with Satan was severed.
Now all that remains is for the last part of God's demonstration to be completed: the demonstration that righteousness, and fitness to live in the harmonious society of God's universe, does not depend upon nature, but upon faith--having whole-hearted faith in the goodness of God. The universe will never be rendered eternally secure by the notion that creatures have to be perfect in nature. What must be realized by all is that God alone is Good. God alone is righteousness. Even for the unfallen angels, and all other unfallen beings throughout the universe, their only true righteousness is the righteousness that is by faith. This is why the truth of justification by faith in the righteousness of Christ is of such crucial importance to the entire universe. And it is God's still imperfect people here on earth who have a central role in demonstrating this.
The perfection God seeks in His people is the perfecting of their faith. As the Psalmist prayed under inspiration: "Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore." (Psalms 86:11, 12)
Jesus affirmed the same thing as being all-important when He said: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8b; NASB)
This perfection of faith is what God desires to see in His people here on earth. It is this that will provide eternal security for the entire universe: Creatures trusting not in their perfect natures, but having perfect faith in the goodness of the only One who is righteous--God, their Creator.
As Ellen G. White said, "Angelic perfection failed in Heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden." Lucifer was perfect when sin was found in him and became Satan. Adam and Eve were perfect when they sinned. Thus perfection of nature is no assurance. We must have whole-hearted faith in the goodness of God. Even those beings who have never sinned can have eternal security only through the righteousness that is by faith in the Goodness of God. God is the standard. Not any of us.
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quote:When the unfallen angels and other sentient beings throughout the universe witnessed Satan exulting in glee at the torment and murder of the Son of God, their last shred of sympathy with Satan was severed.
How can you speak for "other sentient beings throughout the universe" as to their knowledge or beliefs?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Slavim, there is even a formal theological term for what I am advocating: theodicy. It means God voluntarily allows Himself to be put on trial.
Theodicy is the branch of theology/philosophy that attempts to reconcile the idea of an omnipotent and good God with the existence of evil. It does not refer specifically to the view you are advocating.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: It means God voluntarily allows Himself to be put on trial.
God maintains that He, as Creator, is the only standard of true righteousness. Satan disputed this, and claimed that angels, since they were created with perfect natures, were just as righteous as God. So he broke with God and went his own way, advocating that those who followed him could evolve into godhood in their own right.
If God is the creator of everything, God created Satan. If he created Satan, and he is omnipotent, then he must have known that he was creating a being which would decide to challenge his goodness. If he didn't know what Satan had the potential to do, he's not omnipotent. But if God created Satan with this in mind...
Doesn't that mean that God is essentially playing a game of chess with himself that he can't lose, and we're all just the pawns?
That sounds pretty cruel and egotistical, even if it does have a happy ending for the chosen few.
That is, assuming that God wouldn't create a being who could actually win and destroy him. Which, if God is in control of the universe, would bring everything to an end. But if he wouldn't create a being who could beat him, where is it a fair fight?
(In case anyone's wondering, I'm an Atheist, not a Satanist. This is interesting to me only on a philosophical level.)
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posted
So God creates beings with free will...the ability to choose not to do what he wants them to. Satan decides he can become as powerful as God and that he knows better, then God allows Satan to try, to prove to everyone who he created that God is unbeatable, meanwhile Satan is introducing evil wholesale into the world, causing all kinds of badnesses for us little folk while God is...what?...letting us choose Him and capitalize the "h" in His pronouns and such?
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posted
If you know someone is going to steal a car in a week, is it fair to put them in prison before they commit the act?
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posted
If you know that someone is going to cause the deaths of millions, is it fair to stop them before they do?
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posted
I'm with Bella Bee in that this philosophical discussion for me, as I don't believe in Judeo/Christian God or Satan at all.
But if I'm understanding this right, God gave Satan a free hand to try and ruin humanity's morality/eternal soul to prove a point. Sounds less then awesome.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: If you know someone is going to steal a car in a week, is it fair to put them in prison before they commit the act?
I really don't know. But if we're going to consider punishment for crimes not yet committed...why not avoid the crime instead? Since, after all, you (the one foreseeing) have many possible choices. Get an alarm, put it in a garage, go tell the guy, "Don't steal my car," move the car elsewhere, etc.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Satan has to rely upon deception and intimidation. As Jesus said, "Satan is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44; last part)
God knew that the issues involved with sin would eventually have to be dealt with. There was only one responsible and totally honest and fair way for Him to do this. The fact that Satan is called Lucifer, the morning star, may imply that Lucifer was the first angel that God created. Thus God reveals Himself to be proactive. He wanted to get over with it ASAP.
Yes, God knew that Lucifer would be the one to become Satan. Allowing it to happen does not mean that God is weak. Preventing it from ever happening would defeat His purpose of having a universe governed by love, because that requires that all His intelligent creatures must have true freedom of choice, because love requires freedom of choice. Where there is no freedom of choice, there can be no love, but only the programming of robots.
From the beginning of His creation of the universe, God knew what the cost would be. He chose to pay it. This is why His Son, as an extension of Himself, is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth." (Revelation 13:8; last part) God had to demonstrate self-sacrificing love in order to prove Himself worthy of the love of His creatures, and refute Satan's insinuations that God was selfish.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: But if I'm understanding this right, God gave Satan a free hand to try and ruin humanity's morality/eternal soul to prove a point. Sounds less then awesome.
I don't know if you are understanding Ron right, but what you state here is certainly not the way I understand Christian teachings on freewill. My understanding is that God chose to create individual beings with freewill because it was good. Such a great good, in fact, that it was worth all the problems (which are many and evident) that go with it. I believe the particular good in question is, in fact, love.
Removing human freewill from the equation would seem to make "love" another dangerous and violence-inducing delusion alongside Richard Dawkins' version of God, albeit a more evolutionarily useful one.
ETA: I should perhaps note (as I haven't really participated in serious discussion here in a while) that I am a lapsed Catholic... meaning I no longer consider myself a proponent of that faith, but it does infuse my understanding of Christianity.
quote:...because that requires that all His intelligent creatures must have true freedom of choice, because love requires freedom of choice. Where there is no freedom of choice, there can be no love, but only the programming of robots.
It cannot fairly be said that people with two main choices, "Love God and obey," or, "Suffer eternal damnation," have 'true freedom of choice'. They've got a choice, yes, but that's not the same thing. No more than you would have a real choice over whether or not to give me $100 if I clapped a loaded gun to your head and said, "Your money or your life, Mr. Lambert!"
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posted
You know, the thing about Adam and Eve and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, is that it seems, on the very face of it, to contradict Ron's point.
Presumable Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to partaking of the tree, they did not have the same choice as the angels and God himself had (since they would have the knowledge; at least God certainly would).
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Satan has to rely upon deception and intimidation.
This struck me as strange too. The difference between God and Satan would not be that God doesn't use intimidation, when clearly He does. Perhaps it's intimidation out of love, but if you posit an omnipotent God you cannot possibly say that He doesn't attempt to intimidate.
ETA: Well, y'know lemme amend that: Ron cannot possibly say that He doesn't attempt to intimidate, given what he's espoused is God's outlook as expressed to us human beings. But I have no doubt that's exactly what will happen: things that would be, if committed by human beings to other human beings would certainly be intimidation, won't be because God is doin' it.
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posted
God did not kill Satan, though He says He will eventually. Instead, God has allowed Satan to continue on for thousands of years. Likewise God does not strike down evil-doers in this world immediately, other than allowing them to suffer the natural consequences of their actions and attitudes. This allows them to suppose that maybe God doesn't really mean what He says.
He warned His creatures what would be the end result of turning against their Creator, since He is the Source of all life, and they cannot exist apart from Him. But those who rebell choose to doubt Him. Satan said to Eve in Eden, "Ye shall not surely die!" (Genesis 3:4)
The day will come when God has had enough of bearing the burden of knowing intimately, from the inside out, the experience of devils and hateful humans in their evil. From the Nazi death camp guard forcing large groups of people into the gas chambers, to the victims themselves, He knows the experience of evil because He sustains our lives from moment to moment. "For in Him we live and move and have our being...." (Acts 17:28a)
The Bible does not say that Adam and Eve did not know what sin was. "Know" is a word with more than one meaning in the Bible. Know often means experience. Adam and Eve did not know what sin was by experience. God was honest with them and told them all He could. But they chose to doubt Him anyway. Like Satan Himself, they thought that maybe if enough of His creatures joined in opposition, God would be forced to change His mind. Adam presumed on God's love for him, thinking that if he joined Eve in transgression, God would have to save Eve in order to save him. Satan thought that if he could get enough angels to join with him, God would never remove all of them from existence. Likewise he thinks that if he can get enough humans to side with him in having hostility against God, God would have to change His mind about upholding righteous judgment. This is the kind of presumption that evil people make all the time. "Everybody does it. So let's see if we can change the law."
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posted
It really bugs me the way Ron speaks with such confidence as to the inner mind workings of...all intelligent life in the universe, God, Adam, Satan, evil doers, the righteous, etc.
Maybe Ron has some really really good ESP (like able to go back in time good).
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posted
I wrote a huge sacastic post about what a great dude God is for loving us to torturous deaths, but honestly most of the people in this thread aren't defending the actions of a-- said being--, so we're all good.
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posted
Stone_Wolf_, the Bible explains a lot of things if you take it seriously as the Word of God. I hope that as I present these things that clearly answer so many of the questions people frequently raise from what I have learned from Scripture, it will become apparent how much sense the Biblical view of everything makes.
Also Ellen G. White, whom most Adventists believe had the prophetic gift, was given many visions of things as well, such as the career of Lucifer in Heaven. For example she described many meetings in Heaven between the Son of God and Lucifer before he had gone too far, urging him to reconsider his course. I do not base anything that I believe on what she said, but she does illuminate a lot of things. Ellen G. White was permitted to see other worlds, where there also were placed trees of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and she was told that no one on those worlds have touched their world's forbidden tree. It only happened on earth. Humanity is the only race that has fallen, besides of course about one-third of the angels.
Teshi, it is only possible to have such a negative view of God if you are ignorant of the truth about Him. You have believed lies and distortions and Satanic propaganda, designed to flatter your ego, just as he flattered Eve with his sophistries in Eden, as revealed in Genesis. Do not fall for this. God will reveal Himself to you as He truly is, if you are willing to have your opinions changed, and honestly seek to know Him.
Do you really think so many people would love Him if they believed the things you believe about Him? Do you really think all these millions of people are stupid, and only atheists are intelligent? Even Satan believes in God. He laughs at people who fall for the deception that He doesn't exist, or even worse, those who fall for his attempt to invest God with the attributes of character that are really his own.
[ May 30, 2011, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I imagine that after meeting someone face to face, it's quite difficult not to believe in them. I believe in my postman's existence for the same reason. However, for me, since don't believe in Satan, the idea that Satan believes in God is not terribly convincing.
quote: I do not base anything that I believe on what she said, but she does illuminate a lot of things... Humanity is the only race that has fallen, besides of course about one-third of the angels.
This doesn't make sense to me. You don't base anything you believe on what she said, but you believe what she said, and that changes your view of humanity in the universe? Eh?
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posted
No, Bella, I only claim as truth what the Bible reveals. Ellen G. White merely expands or illuminates a few things--but even then they can be inferred from Scripture. She does not change my view of humanity in the universe. John Milton in his epic poem, "Paradise Lost," depicts from inference some of the same things that Ellen G. White said. They are logical inferences that can be made by anyone familiar with the Bible.
For example, the Apostle Paul wrote: "...we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.." (1 Corinthians 4:9; last part) The Greek word here translated as "world" is kosmo, from which comes our word for universe, cosmos. This interpretation seems confirmed by the fact that "angels" are used as correlates, and the unfallen angels are not native to earth at all. The word is translated as universe in the NIV.
Since we are made a spectacle or theatre to the whole universe, angels as well as intelligent creatures like man elsewhere throughout the universe (which is what this text seems to imply), this further implies that mankind on earth is unique, in that we only have fallen of all the planetary intelligences. Otherwise, why would we stand out and be of such interest to everyone else in the universe?
There is another text in the Bible that also implies that intelligent beings exist on other worlds, Job 38:4-7 (quoted from the NASB):
quote:"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Here God is challenging Job for getting too uppity. He even uses a bit of sarcastic irony. Notice the last two clauses, "When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy." Comparison of Scripture with Scripture will show that stars are frequently used as synonyms or even symbols for angels (see Revelation 1:20; 12:4, 7). Obviously the text in Job is not talking about literal stars, since it says they sang together when the earth was first created. Who then are the "sons of God who shouted for joy" at the same time? In the genealogy in Luke, Adam is said to be the "son of God." (Luke 3:38) Obviously, this is because God made him.
Now, when the foundations of the earth were first being laid, Adam did not exist yet. So who were these other "sons of God" who "shouted for joy"? The only answer that makes sense is that they must be equivalents to Adam, the original progenitors of their races, on other worlds.
[ May 30, 2011, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: ... Obviously the text in Job is not talking about literal stars, since it says they sang together when the earth was first created.
I don't follow, how does this step work? Is "sang" a synonym for "created" in this context?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Mucus, sang means sang. Angels sing. Multitudes of angels sang at Christ's birth. (See Luke 2:13.)
In Job 38:7, the angels are depicted as singing in celebration of God's creative work during Creation Week on earth. And with them the intelligent beings on other worlds shouted for joy. All are able to witness what transpires on earth.
It is also reasonable to infer from Job 38:7 that mankind on earth is the most recent race of intelligent beings created by God.
In case a popular erroneous belief might be causing confusion for some people, humans do not become angels when they die. Angels and humans are two distinct types of creatures. The Psalmist declared: "What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor." (Psalms 8:4, 5; NKJV)
The Bible clearly states that mankind is flesh and blood. That is how he was created. But the author of Hebrews says that the angels are spirits: "But to which of the angels has He ever said: 'Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool'? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:13, 14)
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Bumping this thread because, well, I'm not getting Ice Cream Sandwich or something.
quote:Radio preacher says Rapture is coming Friday. For sure this time
Harold Camping says the “real” rapture day is approaching, with Oct. 21, 2011, now predicted to be the day of judgment, according the radio host and preacher.
Call it Rapture 2011 — Take 2.
Camping, 90, has admitted that his previous prediction of a May 21, 2011 apocalypse was wrong due to an error in calculation.
posted
Surely it'll be much easier this time. How much loot could you have accrued in so short a time?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Hmmm, does anyone know the exact time this is supposed to happen? They seem more tight-lipped this time.
quote:This time, the ministry and its 90-year-old leader, Harold Camping, have avoided the media and perhaps a repeat of the international mockery that followed when believers awoke on May 22 to find themselves still on Earth.
“I'm sorry to disappoint you, but we at Family Radio have been directed to not talk to the media or the press,” Mr. Camping's daughter Susan Espinoza wrote in response to an email request about Friday's doomsday scenario.
Calls to the ministry in Oakland Thursday went to voicemail and were unreturned. Several followers who were contacted also declined comment.
posted
we're all still alive? by god, says harold camping (played by van damme) - quick, i have to check my notes!
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