quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I'm not even sure why the media is so interested in ending this thing.
They're not. It's like the furniture stores with the perpetual going-out-of-business-sale signs.
Headlines or summaries that make a big deal out of a primary mean a story more likely to be read. "Today's primary indicated that presidential hopefuls remain about where they were last week" -- not so much.
Also, as an added bonus, if they keep saying it's over, X or Y has it in the bag, eventually they'll be right. Later, they can say, "as we predicted ____ weeks/months ago". Ignoring all the times they were wrong, naturally.
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Sure, but they have immense power over the process itself. It's impossible to say that their reporting hasn't had an affect on the voting. If it really is all over tomorrow, they have nothing to report on for four months. Wouldn't it make more sense to play up the underdog angle of the other candidates and give them some face time rather than pigeonhole them and treat Romney like the heir apparent?
Otherwise, yeah, I agree.
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Well, somehow the media has convinced all the candidates, and the states in question, that Iowa and New Hampshire are such the end-all-be-all of states to win, that the residents *expect to meet candidates in person*, and yet the winners of those contests bear no discernable pattern when compared with the winners of nomination battles.
I would imagine the biggest effect the media has is on financing. You get written up as a lost cause, and maybe ornery old man JeeWillikers doesn't write a cheque to your campaign this month.
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The mention of GW Bush was spookily prescient. I really don't remember what 1998 was like politically, it's too long ago to really remember the feel. This is in honor of the SNL cold open from either last week or the week before that showed Newt Gingrich in charge of the moon colony in 2014 after Obama allowed the earth to be blown up by nuclear weapons.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I'm not even sure why the media is so interested in ending this thing. The longer the campaigns drag on, the more stories they have. Yet they keep rushing to proclaim it all over just because five states have had their say.
Politico had an interesting take on this phenomenon. Apparently, having Secret Service protection has given Romney an air of inevitability, like he's now the "official" candidate. Whether or not this is total hogwash, I don't know. Politico tends to write stories from interesting angles you don't often see elsewhere.
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You can tell he knows it, too, from the way he says "I approve this message." He's like "Yeah, I approve this shit, bitches! Deal with it."
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I don't know, man. He wants to make a point about China. How should he have portrayed it? An angry voiceover showing graphs of China outsourcing or something?
I mean I agree there's a bit of cringe factor but I'm not sure it's fair to put that on him.
If we were outsourcing jobs to Germany, and he had a white guy with a German accent saying the same spiel, would it still be racially weird?
I don't particularly agree with his gripe in the first place, but I think saying he's trying for a racial angle is unfair. Nationality ≠ Race, even though there are obvious correlations in places outside of Europe.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: I don't know, man. He wants to make a point about China. How should he have portrayed it? An angry voiceover showing graphs of China outsourcing or something?
Seriously? A girl riding a bicycle next to a rice paddy talking in fake pigeon English and, pardon a fitting expression, "chinky" music playing in the background? I agree he wants to make a point about China ( or Vietnam, et al). That point just happens to be: Asians are bad, and my opponent likes Asians (because Asians apparently like her...).
Were you ever shown the vile propaganda produced in America during the first and second world wars?
quote: If we were outsourcing jobs to Germany, and he had a white guy with a German accent saying the same spiel, would it still be racially weird?
In a word, yes. Especially if that German was, say, standing next to the Hoffbrauhaus, licking a weinersnitzel, with polka on in the background, and saying, das ist var gut dis Amerikaunach money!! Ve ist likingk ze Frieulein Debby for zis!"
Yeah, it's racist. The fact that Germans aren't the victims of many American racial stereotypes is not an excuse for perpetrating stereotypes against Asians. I don't even begin to grasp that logic.
ETA: Incidentally, yours is a relatively common error. The fact that some racial groups, particularly politically and economically powerful ones (such as Germans and Americans) do not suffer from racial stereotyping, or do not even seem to *mind* the occasional offense, is not an indication that racist attitudes and imagery are not offensive. Rather, it's an indication that the party being insulted is relatively secure in its own sense of superiority, and is politically and economically empowered.
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Asian Americans with strong American accents and inexplicably bad grammar, apparently. "Debbie spend so much American money... your economy get very weak."
I can't believe they actually found an Asian girl to be in the ad, in the first place.
Dan, the cringe factor is what I meant. That feeling that it would be really weird and awkward to be watching the ad in the same room with your Asian friends. That's you being sensitive, and the guy who made the ad being insensitive.
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quote: In a word, yes. Especially if that German was, say, standing next to the Hoffbrauhaus, licking a weinersnitzel, with polka on in the background, and saying, das ist var gut dis Amerikaunach money!! Ve ist likingk ze Frieulein Debby for zis!"
You know, that's not far away from what sometimes happens in the UK. Germans can still get some flack from the 'Don't Mention The War' brigade. And yes, it's racist - or at least some variety of -ist (I mean like if you are a black German, I don't think you'll ever get that kind of anti-German abuse).
That advert stinks, though. I guess he just lost the Asian vote.
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: Not about the primaries, but this Super Bowl ad from Michigan's Republican candidate for Senate is racially weird:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: If we were outsourcing jobs to Germany, and he had a white guy with a German accent saying the same spiel, would it still be racially weird?
In a word, yes. Especially if that German was, say, standing next to the Hoffbrauhaus, licking a weinersnitzel, with polka on in the background, and saying, das ist var gut dis Amerikaunach money!! Ve ist likingk ze Frieulein Debby for zis!"
Yeah, it's racist. The fact that Germans aren't the victims of many American racial stereotypes is not an excuse for perpetrating stereotypes against Asians. I don't even begin to grasp that logic.
ETA: Incidentally, yours is a relatively common error. The fact that some racial groups, particularly politically and economically powerful ones (such as Germans and Americans) do not suffer from racial stereotyping, or do not even seem to *mind* the occasional offense, is not an indication that racist attitudes and imagery are not offensive. Rather, it's an indication that the party being insulted is relatively secure in its own sense of superiority, and is politically and economically empowered.
Okay. So if someone was making an ad about a southern state trying to pass a bad law, and their ad has a very rednecky guy saying something while Dixie played in the background, that's racist too, right?
Because being Southern is a race, now.
Edit: Also, after reading your edit, I see that "American" is also a race. Good to know!
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: Asian Americans with strong American accents and inexplicably bad grammar, apparently. "Debbie spend so much American money... your economy get very weak."
I can't believe they actually found an Asian girl to be in the ad, in the first place.
Dan, the cringe factor is what I meant. That feeling that it would be really weird and awkward to be watching the ad in the same room with your Asian friends. That's you being sensitive, and the guy who made the ad being insensitive.
If the friend I was with was from China, then yeah. If they were, say, a fifth generation Korean American, then no, I think if they got upset about the commercial I'd probably argue with 'em same as I am with you guys.
Conflating nationality or culture with race is fundamentally a really wrong way to go about discussing these sorts of things. What's more, it's incredibly common. It's also really easy to conflate when you're looking at a monoracial culture.
Cultural stereotypes aren't good, and I guess I'm being misunderstood enough that I should explicitly state that I think that. But racial stereotypes are way, way, way worse in my opinion.
It's the difference between a sort of cringe-worthy dumb generalization (Frenchies don't shower) and a despicable, morally repugnant statement (Black people are stupider than white people).
The ad seems to be an obvious example of the former, not the latter. That's why I objected to implying that it was racist.
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It does seem to be saying that Chinese people are sneaky and greedy. Is that a morally repugnant statement or merely a dumb generalization.
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Really? That's what it's saying? Wow, okay.
I thought it was showing some dumb cultural stereotypes (rice paddies, music, bicycles, as Orincoro pointed out) to clue us in that this was supposed to be China, and then it was saying that China is happy to take outsourced US jobs. I guess you could characterize that as "China is sneaky and greedy" but if you do that you're literally characterizing "China" the anthropomorphized country, not "Chinese people."
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I think it's an ad that will naturally be off-putting to Asian Americans, in much the same way that an ad with a bunch of goofy African tribesmen acting primitive would be off-putting to African Americans. The fact that the guy making the ad didn't realize this is a sure sign that he's an out-of-touch old white dude. Probably the type who (as Sam says) "has lots of [insert minority here] friends!"
I try to set a high bar for the term "racist," so I'm not going to call it that.
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quote: I guess you could characterize that as "China is sneaky and greedy" but if you do that you're literally characterizing "China" the anthropomorphized country, not "Chinese people."
I'd say that seeing a 'Chinese' person grinning widely while she gloatingly says 'We take your jobs!' is pretty damning of Chinese people, not just China. What was that actress thinking?
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Actually, let me take something back. Pete Hoekstra probably doesn't have many non-white friends, nor (knowing him) would he even feel obliged to pretend he does.
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I think it's an ad that will naturally be off-putting to Asian Americans, in much the same way that an ad with a bunch of goofy African tribesmen acting primitive would be off-putting to African Americans. The fact that the guy making the ad didn't realize this is a sure sign that he's an out-of-touch old white dude. Probably the type who (as Sam says) "has lots of [insert minority here] friends!"
I try to set a high bar for the term "racist," so I'm not going to call it that.
I completely agree with this.
Except that I think that the term racist just flat out doesn't apply. Drawing that distinction from this is wrong, in my opinion. (Edit: I don't know anything about the guy but this ad, so if he is a racist based on other stuff, that's fine, I'm not speaking to that)
Cultural stereotypes are used by many people from many groups for many reasons. Broadly speaking, I think they are usually dumb, but they also sometimes contain kernels of truth. Americans are fat and ignorant, etc. Stand-up comics utilize them constantly, sometimes to great effect (sometimes not so much) because when those kernels of truth are lampooned, it's legitimately funny.
The reason I see the distinction as so important is because I think it is perfectly acceptable to criticize cultures. Not stereotypes, but cultural trends (from which stereotypes sometimes spring). Most cultures have flaws, and I don't think that embracing those flaws because they are part of your culture is a good thing. Criticizing a race is horrible and wrongheaded, because their race does not give someone a background of theories and beliefs the way their culture does.
Again, the distinction I'm drawing between racial and cultural stereotypes seems to get ignored a lot, especially in places where a given culture or subculture is monoracial or mostly monoracial. In this day and age, it seems hard to criticize a monoracial culture without getting branded as racist or intolerant or hateful.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: If we were outsourcing jobs to Germany, and he had a white guy with a German accent saying the same spiel, would it still be racially weird?
In a word, yes. Especially if that German was, say, standing next to the Hoffbrauhaus, licking a weinersnitzel, with polka on in the background, and saying, das ist var gut dis Amerikaunach money!! Ve ist likingk ze Frieulein Debby for zis!"
Yeah, it's racist. The fact that Germans aren't the victims of many American racial stereotypes is not an excuse for perpetrating stereotypes against Asians. I don't even begin to grasp that logic.
ETA: Incidentally, yours is a relatively common error. The fact that some racial groups, particularly politically and economically powerful ones (such as Germans and Americans) do not suffer from racial stereotyping, or do not even seem to *mind* the occasional offense, is not an indication that racist attitudes and imagery are not offensive. Rather, it's an indication that the party being insulted is relatively secure in its own sense of superiority, and is politically and economically empowered.
Okay. So if someone was making an ad about a southern state trying to pass a bad law, and their ad has a very rednecky guy saying something while Dixie played in the background, that's racist too, right?
Because being Southern is a race, now.
Edit: Also, after reading your edit, I see that "American" is also a race. Good to know!
IF you're not prepared to discuss this in good faith, we don't have to discuss it at all.
Stereotyping is stereotyping. Be it ethnic or nationalistic. I specifically employed the phrase "racial groups," and included "American," as a shorthand for the shared cultural background of Americans- specifically to point out that Americans, and perhaps I should add, specifically Caucasian and Scandinavian descended Americans, by dint of shared national heritage, do not suffer much from racial stereotyping specifically because they are and have been a dominant majority. What racial stereotyping that was prevalent amongst white Americans, such as against the Irish and Germans, has abated to a large degree in the past half century.
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quote: I guess you could characterize that as "China is sneaky and greedy" but if you do that you're literally characterizing "China" the anthropomorphized country, not "Chinese people."
I'd say that seeing a 'Chinese' person grinning widely while she gloatingly says 'We take your jobs!' is pretty damning of Chinese people, not just China. What was that actress thinking?
Either she's thinking "I'm glad I can pay rent next month thanks to this stupid job for this racist oaf!" or she's thinking "I wish people would stop assuming I owe some sort of allegiance to China just because I'm racially Chinese! Go Pete!"
Either way I don't bear her any ill will.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Really? That's what it's saying? Wow, okay.
I thought it was showing some dumb cultural stereotypes (rice paddies, music, bicycles, as Orincoro pointed out) to clue us in that this was supposed to be China, and then it was saying that China is happy to take outsourced US jobs. I guess you could characterize that as "China is sneaky and greedy" but if you do that you're literally characterizing "China" the anthropomorphized country, not "Chinese people."
That's seems rather coy. The overt stereotyping appeals to racial fears and race hatred. The foreign is cast as scheming and backwards- which in the history of American media portrayals of Asians, has a *rich* tradition dating back to early cinema. And If that is not intentional, then it is the most unintentionally offensive bit of advertising I've seen in quite a while.
American media and film have used the Asian female as a shorthand for moral depravity since the days of Anna May Wong. It's only in recent history that this has changed significantly. An image like this is not just "setting the stage," or invoking the idea of China. It is invoking the image of the evil dowager empress, of the Vietnamese prostitute who represents the moral decay of society in Full Metal Jacket, or a hundred other images laced into American culture. It appeals to every other image you've ever been exposed to. I know, I know. You'll say: what does a person do who just wants to represent the idea of a Chinese person? I don't know, to be honest. There is so much poison in these images, that I don't really know what could be done to accomplish that.
quote: I guess you could characterize that as "China is sneaky and greedy" but if you do that you're literally characterizing "China" the anthropomorphized country, not "Chinese people."
I'd say that seeing a 'Chinese' person grinning widely while she gloatingly says 'We take your jobs!' is pretty damning of Chinese people, not just China. What was that actress thinking?
Either she's thinking "I'm glad I can pay rent next month thanks to this stupid job for this racist oaf!" or she's thinking "I wish people would stop assuming I owe some sort of allegiance to China just because I'm racially Chinese! Go Pete!" .
She was thinking that, as she was using her appearance, and a pigeon accent to convey the notion that she was Chinese- and loved China.
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: If we were outsourcing jobs to Germany, and he had a white guy with a German accent saying the same spiel, would it still be racially weird?
In a word, yes. Especially if that German was, say, standing next to the Hoffbrauhaus, licking a weinersnitzel, with polka on in the background, and saying, das ist var gut dis Amerikaunach money!! Ve ist likingk ze Frieulein Debby for zis!"
Yeah, it's racist. The fact that Germans aren't the victims of many American racial stereotypes is not an excuse for perpetrating stereotypes against Asians. I don't even begin to grasp that logic.
ETA: Incidentally, yours is a relatively common error. The fact that some racial groups, particularly politically and economically powerful ones (such as Germans and Americans) do not suffer from racial stereotyping, or do not even seem to *mind* the occasional offense, is not an indication that racist attitudes and imagery are not offensive. Rather, it's an indication that the party being insulted is relatively secure in its own sense of superiority, and is politically and economically empowered.
Okay. So if someone was making an ad about a southern state trying to pass a bad law, and their ad has a very rednecky guy saying something while Dixie played in the background, that's racist too, right?
Because being Southern is a race, now.
Edit: Also, after reading your edit, I see that "American" is also a race. Good to know!
IF you're not prepared to discuss this in good faith, we don't have to discuss it at all.
As always, this is true. I'm not likely to change my posting style, so if you find it intolerable we can always table this discussion like the last one.
That being said...
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Stereotyping is stereotyping. Be it ethnic or nationalistic. I specifically employed the phrase "racial groups," and included "American," as a shorthand for the shared cultural background of Americans- specifically to point out that Americans, and perhaps I should add, specifically Caucasian and Scandinavian descended Americans, by dint of shared national heritage, do not suffer much from racial stereotyping specifically because they are and have been a dominant majority. What racial stereotyping that was prevalent amongst white Americans, such as against the Irish and Germans, has abated to a large degree in the past half century.
You did mention Americans, that's true. I'm not sure you've really addressed my question, though. I want to make sure I am correctly understanding you. So, anyone who says "Americans are fat" is a racist, right?
By extension, anyone who says "Southerners are dumb" is also a racist, yeah?
Let me go further: Anyone who says "Texans are arrogant" is a racist, too. Right? Or does that one push it too far?
If not, now we've just got it down to the state someone chooses to live in. What about another culture a person can choose to join. What if someone says "Christians don't know how to think critically," is that person also a racist?
Here's another culture someone can choose to join: Is someone who says "Republicans are racists" also a racist?
Here's a different angle. "White people are racists." Is that a racist thing to say?
In case Orincoro chooses not to respond, if anyone else disagreed with my distinction between culture and race above, what are your answers to the questions in this post? Genuinely curious.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I know, I know. You'll say: what does a person do who just wants to represent the idea of a Chinese person? I don't know, to be honest. There is so much poison in these images, that I don't really know what could be done to accomplish that.
Thank you for acknowledging this. I think it's a pretty important point, that you're not sure it is physically possible for the man to have conveyed what he wanted to convey ("China is taking US jobs and I am not happy about this") without people interpreting it as appealing to race hatred and subconscious racist imagery.
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Well, there is a way. You just say it. If you're interested in *just* saying that. If you're interested in conveying quite a lot more than that, there are obviously ways.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: You did mention Americans, that's true. I'm not sure you've really addressed my question, though. I want to make sure I am correctly understanding you. So, anyone who says "Americans are fat" is a racist, right?
By extension, anyone who says "Southerners are dumb" is also a racist, yeah?
Let me go further: Anyone who says "Texans are arrogant" is a racist, too. Right? Or does that one push it too far?
If it isn't an appeal to racial stereotypes, then it's not racism. I was clear on that. It *is* stereotyping. Stereotyping exists outside of racial stereotyping.
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Nobody is forcing anyone to make the kind of ad that features a mustache-twirling villain saying "Good thing Congressman Joe Blow is playing right into my hands and ruining America! Thanks, Joe Blow!"
I think part of Orincoro's point is that that type of ad is inherently nasty anyway. That doesn't make it against the law or anything, but it does mean you can't make an ad like that without coming across like the dick you are.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: By extension, anyone who says "Southerners are dumb" is also a racist, yeah?
No, such a person is not racist (a jerk, maybe). Living in the South is a choice. Your parentage is not.
quote:Let me go further: Anyone who says "Texans are arrogant" is a racist, too. Right? Or does that one push it too far?
See above.
quote:If not, now we've just got it down to the state someone chooses to live in. What about another culture a person can choose to join. What if someone says "Christians don't know how to think critically," is that person also a racist?
See above.
quote:Here's another culture someone can choose to join: Is someone who says "Republicans are racists" also a racist?
See above.
(Do you notice a trend occurring?)
quote:Here's a different angle. "White people are racists." Is that a racist thing to say?
Yes, that is a racist thing to say. It also doesn't have anywhere near the historical baggage of saying something like, "Chinese people are sneaky job-stealers," or "Black people are subhuman idiots."
And yes, historical baggage matters - especially considering the history we're talking about is really very recent.
Edited to add: Let me turn it back on you. Let's say I put together an ad that shows a white Anglo-Saxon in a cowboy hat beating a black man with a whip. Let's say that the white man then turns to the camera and says, "You know me. I'm the guy that's coming for your family. I'm going to place your kids in servitude and force you to work for no money. That's just the kind of guy I am."
Are you seriously going to claim that such an ad ISN'T intended to scare black viewers by drawing on stereotypical images that convey an image of "white people" as being abusive slavemongers? Are you seriously going to defend this ad by saying, "Well, they didn't explicitly SAY that the white dude was supposed to represent white folks in general"? That the message of the ad is somehow "Well, you gotta watch out for THIS SPECIFIC WHITE GUY," and not "All white people hate you because you're black"?
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: Nobody is forcing anyone to make the kind of ad that features a mustache-twirling villain saying "Good thing Congressman Joe Blow is playing right into my hands and ruining America! Thanks, Joe Blow!"
I think part of Orincoro's point is that that type of ad is inherently nasty anyway. That doesn't make it against the law or anything, but it does mean you can't make an ad like that without coming across like the dick you are.
Oh, absolutely. I agree!
But the mustache twirling villain in the piece is China, not Chinese people. "China gets too many outsourced American jobs" is a much more current, and viscerally upsetting to many people, stereotype than "Those damn coolies are stealing American jobs."
Do you really not see the distinction as important?
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: By extension, anyone who says "Southerners are dumb" is also a racist, yeah?
No, such a person is not racist (a jerk, maybe). Living in the South is a choice. Your parentage is not.
What if my parents are Texan? Then is it racist?
Living in China is as much a choice as living in Texas or the South, right?
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Here's a different angle. "White people are racists." Is that a racist thing to say?
Yes, that is a racist thing to say. It also doesn't have anywhere near the historical baggage of saying something like, "Chinese people are sneaky job-stealers," or "Black people are subhuman idiots."
And yes, historical baggage matters - especially considering the history we're talking about is really very recent.
As I said above, the idea of China stealing American jobs via outsourcing is much more recent than "Chinese people are sneaky job stealers."
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: Edited to add: Let me turn it back on you. Let's say I put together an ad that shows a white Anglo-Saxon in a cowboy hat beating a black man with a whip. Let's say that the white man then turns to the camera and says, "You know me. I'm the guy that's coming for your family. I'm going to place your kids in servitude and force you to work for no money. That's just the kind of guy I am."
Are you seriously going to claim that such an ad ISN'T intended to scare black viewers by drawing on stereotypical images that convey an image of "white people" as being abusive slavemongers? Are you seriously going to defend this ad by saying, "Well, they didn't explicitly SAY that the white dude was supposed to represent white folks in general"? That the message of the ad is somehow "Well, you gotta watch out for THIS SPECIFIC WHITE GUY," and not "All white people hate you because you're black"?
You've totally misrepresented my assessment of the ad. I'm not saying the Chinese woman is just that specific Chinese woman. She absolutely stands in for something. I think she very obviously stands in for the nation of China, not for "Chinese people" in general.
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Blayne Bradley
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I remember an ad which was set in a very posh Chinese university classroom, I forget the exact message though. Something about how awesome China was while America declined and they have their jobs now.
edit 2: Oh man, how just wrong it is, China arguably spent more money (and better) on getting out and avoiding its recession. They actually hurt the people responsible for their housing bubble instead of the people through the efforts to cool off the economy/bubble.
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I'm surprised it took so long for you to look in this thread, Blayne! I assumed that you'd installed some sort of antennae that began tingling whenever anyone mentioned China. Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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I was out seeing The Grey with my mother and working on my artwork before that.
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So, was Blayne's commercial racist? Once again I see the Chinese teacher as an obvious stand-in for the nation of China, and yes, he (China) is cast in a nefarious light. But I still don't see it as particularly racist.
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Blayne Bradley
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I would say that its reflective of a particularly deep xenophobia and an appeal to populist demagoguery on the part of the makers and supporters of the ads. Not racism but certainly scare tactics.
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I'm pretty sure that this is the same Peter Hoekstra who as head of the House Intelligence committee came out with Rick Santorum to claim that we'd found WMDs in Iraq and then, when the entire U.S. intelligence apparatus disputed this, said that this was because they were pushing a political agenda of helping al Queda.
This guy's a real winner.
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I think it's an ad that will naturally be off-putting to Asian Americans, in much the same way that an ad with a bunch of goofy African tribesmen acting primitive would be off-putting ...
Probably even moreso, since this is Michigan:
quote:... it also evoked the specter of Vincent Chin, the Chinese American who was killed 30 years ago by a Detroit-area auto plant superintendent who thought Chin was Japanese. This was during the period of American paranoia about Japanese domination of business, especially the automobile industry. The killer allegedly said to Chin, ""It's because of you little m***s that we're out of work!" even though Chin was not Japanese. Chin was beaten to death and the perpetrators were given very lenient sentences for what is in my view, a hate-based and pre-meditated crime.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I'm pretty sure that this is the same Peter Hoekstra who as head of the House Intelligence committee came out with Rick Santorum to claim that we'd found WMDs in Iraq and then, when the entire U.S. intelligence apparatus disputed this, said that this was because they were pushing a political agenda of helping al Queda.
This guy's a real winner.
Yeah, same guy. A real winner in every sense. I largely grew up in his House district. It seems like he's the dud candidate who drew the short straw and got set up in front of a tough incumbent, so hopefully he won't make much trouble.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: So, was Blayne's commercial racist? Once again I see the Chinese teacher as an obvious stand-in for the nation of China, and yes, he (China) is cast in a nefarious light. But I still don't see it as particularly racist.
That commercial was way less offensive than the Hoekstra one, since it didn't employ negative stereotypes and had the main character speaking eloquently in Chinese.
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See, first and foremost I would characterize it as vastly better done. It's just a better commercial. It gets the same point across, but more effectively.
It manages to make China appear much more sinister, and utilizes less generic vaguely offensive cultural stereotypes.
But its message is fundamentally similar (without all the specifics of that one member of Congress). Do you really disagree?
(Once again, Destineer, I think I mostly agree with what you're saying: The commercial is bad and somewhat offensive for using stupid cultural stereotypes. What I'm vehemently objecting to is the characterization that it is racist)
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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"Your economy get very weak, ours get very good"
ching chong ching chong. Hro hro hro. We are conniving china-men.
So anyway, the remaining argument is about, what — that it's not fair to call this racist, it's merely massively racially insensitive and xenophobic as part of a package deal to prey on nationalist and racist fears through ugly socioethnic stereotypes, or
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yeah he is already getting thrown under the bus, about as fast as he could get on politico to insist that there were no racial overtones in the ad, alongside a little host of extremely dumb damage control excuses, I guess.
quote:Republican political consultant Mike Murphy, who worked for former Gov. John Engler, tweeted Sunday: "Pete Hoekstra Superbowl TV ad in MI Senate race really, really dumb. I mean really."
The Rev. Charles Williams II of the King Solomon Baptist Church in Detroit called on Hoekstra to apologize and pull the ad. If he doesn't, Williams said ministers would begin calling Hoekstra's campaign contributors to urge them to withdraw support.
"The imagery in the ad is no different than the folks who had to put blackfaced paint on and tap dance," he said. "This whole thing makes me so sad because Hoekstra really doesn't get it."
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: So anyway, the remaining argument is about, what — that it's not fair to call this racist, it's merely massively racially insensitive and xenophobic as part of a package deal to prey on nationalist and racist fears through ugly socioethnic stereotypes, or
Not quite...
Bleh, I would try again but my partner says I should give this one up because nobody cares about the distinction I'm making but me. And that it's not terribly valuable one way or the other because negative cultural stereotypes can be just as bad as racist stereotypes. Upon reflection, I realized that's absolutely right.
Think I'm just arguing the point because, tangentially, I'm tired of people insinuating I'm a racist when I criticize a negative cultural trends. There are times when the distinction I made above between race and culture matters. But criticism isn't the same as stupid grossly wrongheaded mockery, so it doesn't get the same defense.
So I'm comfortable letting this asshat fall under that bus.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't think it's about nobody caring about your distinction. Ultimately, this advertisement has notably racist overtones, whether or not Hoekstra's idiot ad group intended to have that be a targetable part of the campaign's overall package. Whether or not those racist overtones and the racist imagery (good lord, they even had her doing chinglishy grammar out there in the nam patties despite the fact she has an obv western accent) are intentional doesn't matter to whether or not the ad ended up racist.
I can't type this out fast enough god here comes the bus here it comes heeeeeeeeeeerrrrree it
quote:GOP consultant Nick De Leeuw flat-out scolded the Holland Republican for the ad.
“Stabenow has got to go. But shame on Pete Hoekstra for that appalling new advertisement,” De Leeuw wrote on his Facebook page Sunday morning. “Racism and xenophobia aren’t any way to get things done ….”
“Saving America from the Washington, D.C., politicians who gave us this crippling debt and deficit crisis, Republican and Democrat alike, means Hoekstra and Stabenow should both get benched,” [Hoekstra's GOP Senate primary rival Gary] Glenn said in a release.
This got all over the place but quick man
quote:OK, I went into that with an open mind and fully prepared to point out that featuring an Asian in an ad or talking about foreign trade is not inherently racist. But that's one of the most racist (more specifically, xenophobic) things I've seen in a very long time. Wow.
quote:I feel bad for saying this...but that is one of the coolest ****ing websites I've ever been too. Not for the subject, but for the delivery. I don't know why...but I love the design of it all. But I hate that its super racist. UGH THIS IS SO CONFLICTING
posted
Dan, to elaborate a bit on why the ad is problematic racially as well as xenophobically:
It would be different if the stereotypical Asian accent hadn't taken up the place it has in American racial politics. But in fact, a lot of people use it to make fun of Asian Americans, especially Asian women (like with the Full Metal Jacket "me love you long time" routine; ask any Asian girl how many times she's heard that).
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Dan, I think I understand the point you are make by trying to differentiate between racism and cultural stereotyping. I am not sure that you can make that distinction and, when culture and race are as inextricably linked as they are in many culture, I think that it can be dangerous to try. Further, both are likely to be offensive, so why make the effort?
It is nice when political ads appeal to our better nature rather than to the worst in us.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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