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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Yay yay pepper spray! (Page 6)

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Author Topic: Yay yay pepper spray!
kmbboots
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Honestly, telling someone who hasn't met you that you love them can be a little creepy. It would annoy the heck out of me.
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Aerin
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So taking it off and putting it back on your keys is something you'll have to do on a regulary basis.

That all adds to the cost. If you're selling it on conveinece, it is clearly not nearly as convenient as it needs to be for the argument to work. If I'm going to spend that much time thinking about a personal defense device, there are better things to spend my time and thought on.

Your whole argument hinges on it being convenient, cheap, safe and effective. It is not convenient, it is not safe, and unless the circumstances are pefect, it is not effective. So...it's just an inconvenient, unreliable, unsafe, but cheap option. People would be better served carrying a bottle opener.

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El JT de Spang
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Taking it off to fly is a pretty flimsy reason not to use pepper spray, is all I'll say. If that's your cornerstone argument you're better served by saying you can't afford to buy it. This coming from someone who flies constantly, and has no interest in carrying pepper spray. So I have no horse in this race.
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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I think my response of either use pepper spray to make sure that your attacker can not get close enough to touch you, or do not attempt to use it until you are outside of arm's reach is a pretty decent answer.

This a general question to all that has occurred to me: How do you determine that someone is attacking you (especially for the purposes of deciding to use pepper spray) before they are close enough to touch you?

This is a serious question: I've never been attacked nor seen anyone attacked. I don't know how I would make this determination.

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Stone_Wolf_
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boots: rivka and I have joked about our forbidden love previously.

Aerin: Regular basis for people who travel by air regularly...I don't think that is the norm.

Lets look at your other assumptions here one by one:

Inconvenient: You say that having to remove before boarding an airplane makes it inconvenient. I say, that's rare, how many flights do you take per week? Others say, having it on my keys is annoying. I say, then don't put it on your keys. There are ways to make it more convenient, and for some it simply won't be...like Hobbes who only likes to carry his car key by itself. This is an arguable point either way. You can make it pretty darn convenient if one chooses to. Heck, you know what's inconvenient...carrying keys at all. Why not just leave everything unlocked?

Cheap: No argument there as far as I've seen...pepper spray is monetarily inexpensive.

Unsafe: I don't understand exactly why you are saying it is unsafe. With childproof and safety lockable models available, there is very little chance of accidental spray. The spray itself has a very low chance of causing permanent damage and even lower chance of causing death. Relative to other weapons available, pepper spray is darn safe. Relative to carrying zero weapons, pepper spray is still darn tootin' safe.

Unreliable: Again, I don't see exactly where you are getting this. You don't have to have "the prefect circumstance" for it to be useful. If you have it, and start to feel unsafe, take it out. If you are attacked and don't have it in your hand, then yes, it is probably not the best idea to instantly go for it, as you are probably busy, but you are no worse either, and if you can buy yourself a few seconds, you can use it pretty easily and it is durn effective in giving you time to get away.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
boots: rivka and I have joked about our forbidden love previously.

Yeah. It was funny the first time.

And I'm not angry. I do think it is sad that you are so entrenched in your worldview that you find it necessary to put down, belittle, and otherwise dismiss all views you disagree with. I've given up on engaging you with reasoned posts -- it's a waste of my time.

I'll stick to emoticons. Way more fun. [Razz]

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
This a general question to all that has occurred to me: How do you determine that someone is attacking you (especially for the purposes of deciding to use pepper spray) before they are close enough to touch you?

This is a serious question: I've never been attacked nor seen anyone attacked. I don't know how I would make this determination.

(Not the exact answer to your exact question...)
Someone approaches you and makes you uncomfortable, so you get out your spray and say, "Do not come any closer or I will spray you." At this point you could have it wrong, and they might just be walking near you or trying to get at something behind you, and if that is the case, they will likely back away and say so. If they were going to attack you, then they will likely at this point leave you alone or attack...which if they continue to advance on you after you have demanded they halt is the right time to spray spray spray.

So, more directly...the way you know if someone is going to attack you is...intuition/perception. Probably not the perfect answer, but *shrug* we are not prefect beings.

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Stone_Wolf_
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rivka: I am sorry you feel that way. I sure hope that you are alone in feeling that I have put down, belittled and otherwise dismissed all views I disagree with. I've put considerable time and effort into addressing points I disagree with, so, I really don't know why you think that. But if anyone does feel that I've put them down or belittled them then please let me know so I can apologize as that was not my intent.

As to you having giving up engaging me with reasoned posts...do you consider ordering me to "Get over myself." reasoned? Or was that a put down, belittling and otherwise dismissive?

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
do you consider ordering me to "Get over myself." reasoned?

Nope. [Smile]

You had just ignored/dismissed several reasoned posts from people with far more patience than I.

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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
I am sorry you feel that way.
This line is sort of reflective of a lot of the language you use. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology, it's an attempt to passive-aggressively assert control.
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Stone_Wolf_
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I'm just about done myself here. I have offered again and again to go over any particular argument that got skipped, poured over the thread and answered what I could tell got missed even without prompting, offer to apologize if people feel mistreated continually being friendly and admitting when people have good points and I get generalized statements with no backing about how I ignore, belittle and passively aggressive control people.

That you guys disagree with my assessment of the importance and ease of carrying pepper spray is apparent.

What isn't is that nearly every question that I posed went unanswered. What isn't apparent is how everyone demands that I take into consideration their opinion and nearly no one gives me the same consideration.

I am stating my opinion, and have gone out of my way to make the title of this thread as neutral and friendly as possible. You don't want to accept my advice, fine, but when you start just ganging up with pacific negative comments it makes me feel bullied.

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:
I am sorry you feel that way.
This line is sort of reflective of a lot of the language you use. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology, it's an attempt to passive-aggressively assert control.
Agreed. Same with "I sure hope that you are alone in feeling . . ." in contrast with "I sure hope that I haven't . . ."
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Samprimary
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quote:
What isn't is that nearly every question that I posed went unanswered. What isn't apparent is how everyone demands that I take into consideration their opinion and nearly no one gives me the same consideration.
sdfkgdfs.

Okay, here. Can you understand, near the conclusion of this thread, how a wise person can read every part of this thread, and wisely conclude "I do not feel it worthwhile to carry around pepper spray on my person."

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kmbboots
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I am the kind of person who carries both an umbrella and rain poncho in her purse. After this thread I am less likely to carry pepper spray.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Samp: I have said so multiple times in this thread. From rivka to the poster (sorry I forget which) who said they got a flashlight for their gf because she was uncomfortable with pepper spray to giving two examples today.

Even good solutions are not good for everyone.

Thanks boots...that means a lot.

I realize that at this very moment a small angry, petty part of me hopes that someone here gets assaulted just so they can think back on this discussion...which is very very bad...and a really good indicator that I am no longer emotionally neutral to the issue, and need to take a very long break from this thread.

I really do not like wishing people harm...considering that I started this thread with the exact opposite goal...well...let's just say I need a long break to just cool my head.

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shadowland
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
What isn't apparent is how everyone demands that I take into consideration their opinion and nearly no one gives me the same consideration.

Well, here's my opinion. Some of my close friends carry pepper spray with them. One of them has mentioned to me that sometimes when she is walking home late at night and the situation is making her feel uncomfortable, she will grab the pepper spray and be prepared to spray it if necessary. So for her it works out well. For myself, I've found that simply wearing shoes that I can run in has been more effective in getting out of bad situations than pepper spray would have been (which happened to me a couple months ago). I also try to avoid carrying my key chain with me whenever possible, and when I do carry it, I try to keep the things attached to it at a minimum (I also do not carry a typical wallet and when I get to work I empty most of the contents of my pockets into my desk drawer - I try to carry as few things as possible). So for me, a can of pepper spray is more of a nuisance with very little, if any, practical benefit.
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Jake
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There aren't any good places to clip a cannister of pepper spray onto my powered battle armor, so I don't bother with it.
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Aerin
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I fly a LOT. The chances of the perfect attack situation where I am certain enough I am being attacked that spraying someone with pepper spray is self defense while still being far enough away that I do not harm myself or have it taken away and used against me are absolutely MINISCULE compared to certainty that removing and reattaching an useless bottle to my keychain that will slow down the airport experience and have a TSA agent threaten me with criminal charges (as happened when I tried to carry my knife onto a plane) if I forget is going to be a gigantic pain in the neck.

I have explained why it is unsafe (not a targeted device, easily used against a person) and unreliable (close enough to spray, doesn't incapacitate, but far enough away to get away after you've made someone angry is a very specialized circumstance).

At this point, I would only use the pepper spray against whomever forced such a stupid object upon me.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
There aren't any good places to clip a cannister of pepper spray onto my powered battle armor, so I don't bother with it.

[Laugh] at the picture in my mind of you as Robocop.

ETA: Not that you wouldn't be an awesome Robocop. You would just be such a genial, pleasant one.

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Raymond Arnold
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StoneWolf, at this point I honestly don't recall - do you personally know people who *successfully used Pepper Spray* in circumstances where it mattered?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
There aren't any good places to clip a cannister of pepper spray onto my powered battle armor, so I don't bother with it.

[Laugh] at the picture in my mind of you as Robocop.

ETA: Not that you wouldn't be an awesome Robocop. You would just be such a genial, pleasant one.

Very true.
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CT
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[Smile]
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
There aren't any good places to clip a cannister of pepper spray onto my powered battle armor, so I don't bother with it.

[Laugh] at the picture in my mind of you as Robocop.

ETA: Not that you wouldn't be an awesome Robocop. You would just be such a genial, pleasant one.

Well, I'm mostly in Robo community-outreach.
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odouls268
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Honestly, telling someone who hasn't met you that you love them can be a little creepy. It would annoy the heck out of me.

LOL when I opened this thread today, this was the first post I saw. I have no idea to what it is a reference, but it seems a lovely non sequiter, and sage advice. I wanna try!

Don't even try to solve two rubics cubes at the same time. It makes you look pompous, and no one will invite you to dinner parties. I'm talking to you, Jason. [Razz]

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
StoneWolf, at this point I honestly don't recall - do you personally know people who *successfully used Pepper Spray* in circumstances where it mattered?

Nope.
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Orincoro
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Oh good. Well, god forbid you should even have anecdotal evidence that it's worth carrying.


You don't seem capable of convincing me it's worth it to carry a jar of Tabasco sauce of the same size on my keyring. And I LOVE Tabasco sauce. That's an item I would use if I carried it. But I don't. It's not worth it to me.

In fact, I'm gonna start advocating that. Tabasco sauce on your keyring!

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Stone_Wolf_
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I prefer Cholula.
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Orincoro
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Savage.
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Stone_Wolf_
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That's me!
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Stone_Wolf_
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I have a call into the local PD watch commander...left a msg on his voice mail asking for a non-official police point of view on the topic...I'll let you guys know what he says.
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Rakeesh
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Well, that's not necessarily very relevant to this discussion. Elsewhere when established authorities were invoked, you plainly said, "Well, they're wrong." So what will happen if the cop says, "By all means, people should carry pepper spray as a general rule." Well then you're vindicated. If, however, the cop replies with, "Actually everyone carrying pepper spray in general is a bad idea for thus and so reasons..:" or some shade thereof, well...similar discussions indicate that that won't actually have any bearing on your argument.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Not for argument sake, but because I really would like to know, under what circumstances would people actually start carrying pepper spray?
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Jake
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As soon as someone installs a clip on my battle armor, I'm there.
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dabbler
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I haven't been a part of this conversation, but I'd carry it if I were routinely walking through an unsafe neighborhood.
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dabbler
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Oh and now that I think of it, it might be smart to have if I were to see adult psychotic clients at a private office.
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Rakeesh
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If I had specific risk factors aside from just living, I might seriously consider it, depending on what those circumstances were. However, "I might be attacked and if that happens, there's a good chance pepper spray will help," doesn't rise to that level. My chances of being attacked are so low (ordinarily) and so preventable (often) that it doesn't seem necessary to me.

Of course, I say that as a dude. Less risk. The kinds of crime I'm likeliest to be subject to (and those are all quite unlikely) are of the 'gimme your stuff' variety. There's a case to be made that the smart thing to do in such cases is to, well, fork over your stuff from a safety standpoint.

If, however, I were attacked I probably would start carrying it. Might even get a concealed weapons permit. Far from a given that either of those things would actually make me safer, though.

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by dabbler:
Oh and now that I think of it, it might be smart to have if I were to see adult psychotic clients at a private office.

That seems dangerous to me. Firing one of those in an enclosed space like that seems like a recipe for getting it in your own eyes as well.
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dabbler
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Yeah I dunno, Jake. I'd have to decide on some sort of protection, whether it be a police alarm or a defensive item. But it's unlikely that I will have that kind of client.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
That seems dangerous to me. Firing one of those in an enclosed space like that seems like a recipe for getting it in your own eyes as well.
There's that, and also that it relies on being better and faster than...well, a psychotic adult. Police alarm sounds pretty good, though.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
StoneWolf, at this point I honestly don't recall - do you personally know people who *successfully used Pepper Spray* in circumstances where it mattered?

I do.

I have also seen it used effectively, well, sort of. I got to watch the police swarm an apartment, one of them was at a window blasting the wanted man with a paint ball gun loaded with capsaicin rounds. The dude gave up pretty quick after that. [Big Grin]

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CT
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I worked in a locked down forensic psych unit as a medical student. We carried piercing loud alarms -- all you had to do was pull the plug, and any staff in earshot would drop everything and come running. It worked well.

I think I'd probably carry pepper spray if I were in a place where I judged the risk of threatening wild (nonhuman) animal encounters to be sufficiently high.

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Samprimary
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I carry it camping.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Thanks for the replies everyone...I have yet to hear back from the local PD...no doubt they have much much more important matters to deal with.

Considering how many negative responses this thread and my posts in this thread have generated, I'd like to apologize in general if I stepped on anyone's toes. It was not what I wanted to do, and I'm awful sorry that in an attempt to increase the safety and longevity of this community I alienated some of its members instead.

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Blayne Bradley
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So watching Penn And Teller's skepticism show on HBO they had an episode on self defense/martial arts.

-1 The rate of injury among martial artists in violent crime is 100%
-2 If you are not fully aware of self defense laws you are likely to face significant legal issues if you "go too far". (Though this one is arguably solveable)
-3 Learning Martial Arts is a business, the dan belt system is relatively recent invention and a business designed to keep you spending money, you'll spend probably 2000$ in a given year for lessons and your generally better off giving the criminal your wallet. (I'm not to sure about this one)
-4 Some styles encourage you to use lethal force, Penn's suggestion was that if you are willing to use lethal force you are better off using a gun as at least you won't have an injured hand when your arrested.

Interesting episode.

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fugu13
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That's definitely true for some martial arts. I've considered getting back into martial arts here in Seattle, and the only dojos I'm considering are very traditional, and not money making endeavors. For instance, one judo dojo costs $20 a month (but only $15 if you're 16 or under), has a one time $20 fee to start with, black belts don't pay at all, you have to have a judo federation membership which is $50 a year, and you need a gi, which is around $50 one time (plus occasional replacements).

So, that's around $70 one time-ish costs, $50 annually, and $20 a month, for first year costs of all of $360, for three hours of time a week in two sessions (and you can do another three hours, helping out the juniors, if you want, or if you're a junior you can stay for the senior class), or ~150 hours a year for less than $2.50 an hour. Then when you become a black belt your costs drop to just $50 annually.

Did I mention this was the oldest judo dojo in the united states with a highly respected instructor, who is 8th dan and former US champion?

Another place I'm considering is a kendo dojo, which has higher equipment costs, but is otherwise fairly comparable when you break it down by hours of instruction.

And any martial artist who injures their hand vs an untrained opponent wasn't at a high enough skill level to even begin to consider striking first. Every instructor I've ever had, no matter how skilled, has said that if someone was mugging them, they'd hand over their valuables without a second thought.

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Blayne Bradley
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I'm vaguely interesting in Iado or Kenjutsu.
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dabbler
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I took a tiny bit of iaido (taught by a non-professional who had had several years of iaido). It was cool. Very hard to find a local iaido instructor, as far as I could tell.

Iaido as I was taught, though, was somewhat limited. There's a set of forms that you learn, but nothing beyond that. No sparring.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
d I'm awful sorry that in an attempt to increase the safety and longevity of this community I alienated some of its members instead.

[Roll Eyes]

I'm awfully sorry that in my heroic work as a high school English teacher, I sometimes put off other teachers who fail to achieve at my very high level.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by dabbler:
I took a tiny bit of iaido (taught by a non-professional who had had several years of iaido). It was cool. Very hard to find a local iaido instructor, as far as I could tell.

Iaido as I was taught, though, was somewhat limited. There's a set of forms that you learn, but nothing beyond that. No sparring.

I'ld figure, that, in theory if I learned BOTH I could combine them.
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Stone_Wolf_
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This just in, pepper spray ineffective against zombies.
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