quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Have you read the work? I didn't get an answer when I asked before.
Nope, I'm working off of the so far all sources that have read the work.
quote:I don't think he said this-- I know the part you're talking about but this is specifically called out as something he intends to avoid in keeping the legislation.
What is he intending to avoid?
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quote:Scott, it isn't that complicated! Aside from having to know what a collier is instead of knowing what a sickle is, I don't see how it am improvement.
kmboots, it really IS that difficult for people to get the Bard. I'm glad you have an easy time of it-- how are you with things like Ellison's 'Repent, Harlequin! said the Tic Tock Man?' or Card's 'Dogwalker?'
I haven't read either. And I am ok with that. If I really wanted to read them, I would either figure them out or decide it wasn't worth the bother. I would not want to read a dumbed down version. If I didn't enjoy reading them as they are why would I want to read a lesser version?
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quote:But even all this is not really a response to the hypothetical. I bet you that you wouldn't even really question for a second whether the linkage between pedophilia and mormonism is or is not my own bigoted anti-mormon beliefs burrowing blatantly into my work, but when the situation is reversed, you are confusingly ambiguous and coming up with very, very strange excuses for Card, including "even in the quote you cited OSC isn't saying that all gay people must have been sexually abused as children.
Ah, the old, your arguments are really a smoke screen for biases you aren't willing to own up to. Cute.
I completely understand that Mr. Card has taken up the cause of vigorously opposing same-sex marriage. I am also aware that a writer cannot completely divorce their personal feelings and beliefs from their writings. I'm further aware that when people write fiction and non-fiction it's common for their beliefs to leak into some of the details of their stories.
But your statement that I wouldn't be so apologetic if we were dealing with Mormons and Pedophiles cuts both ways. Perhaps you are looking too much into the fact OSC elected to make Hamlet's father a pedophile, as you don't hesitate to dig up homophobia in statements he makes. Perhaps he felt there were interesting plot possibilities with that change of character. I confess the idea of a father being kept from having sex with their own son, after their untimely murder, deceives that son into killing innocent people, as well as himself, thus getting himself sent to hell where his father is waiting, might be one of the most tragic and horrible concepts I can imagine. Hamlet being a tragedy, OSC loving Shakespeare, and being involved in at least two rewrites of his work, and walah...Hamlet's Father.
I confess I have not read much into it, but is there absolutely no evidence that pedophilia is correlated with problems in sexual identification development? Is it ridiculous to suggest that if one were victimized sexually by an older male or father figure that they might then come to believe they ought to be attracted to other men?
One of the central premises of the movie Farewell My Concubine is (spoilers) the young boy, routinely raped by his patron, and forced to play female character, and adopt a female voice, as well as refer to himself as a girl, drives him into falling in love with his best friend who plays the opposite male lead in productions.
It's a tragic tale, do we start looking into whether the writer hates gays? OSC has written so many stories where the characters say and do things he himself certainly doesn't believe, they also do and say things he himself believes. But just because we find a character or even characters that are something OSC has denounced, does not mean the character exists so as to make a value judgement on that particular aspect.
It's the same line of reasoning people have used to accuse OSC of being a Nazi sympathizer. Or a hater of women. It's all nonsense, it's amateur psychoanalysis at best, and useless speculation at worst.
quote:Because, no. He's directly linking pedophilia and homosexuality
No he isn't. Just because he personally believes pedophilia in even most cases (if that) leads to homosexuality, that does not mean every single time he portrays a homosexual he is saying they are a victim of pedophilia, again look at his other gay characters who have never indicated a history of child abuse.
So perhaps he didn't fomulate that opinion until later in his writing, so what? A pedophile is a perfectly suitable subject for villainry, the fact the writer believes that a pedophile by molesting people can create disturbed homosexuals, is not perpetuating homophobia or making a value statement on homosexuals. At worst he is saying some homosexuals would not be so if they were not victimized, is that patently false?
I know people who abused by their mothers find it hard to bond to women. I know homosexuals who were terribly abused by their fathers. The lack of a strong positive father figure, combined with the sexual exploratory development of a juvenile seems perfectly capable of leading to homosexuality. Heck, tear out my eyes, when I'm a boy, and I might become fascinated with the few images I can conjure in my memory. If my character becomes overcome with obsession over those images, am I then making a value judgement about the blind?
Explain to me how Hamlet's father, being a pedophile, molesting other boys in the court, and one of them definitely struggling with thoughts of homosexuality, perpetuates a fear, hatred, or negative impression of homosexuality?
Can we find a person who having read Hamlet's Father came away with the idea, "Man homosexuality is an awful thing"? So far I'm seeing tons of reviewers scream foul, but I'm not seeing folks who dislike homosexuality picking up copies and quoting it, or praising it.
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I saw Farewell My Concubine. Diyi (sp) falls for the fellow playing the king because he in a way WANTS to be the Concubine that is loyal to the end. Though a Chinese friend of mine said it was because his friend told him he was a girl and then he grew to believe that until at the end where
Spoiler
He realize he isn't a girl and his dream sort of shatters. I don't know. There's a lot of ways to look at a story.
I would say that it creates a negative impression just by using the offensive myths that-
Gay guys go for young boys. Young boys being molested by gay guys makes them gay.
Yeah, it pretty much speaks for itself in terms of being a negative impression of gays.
And I had to give up reading OSC because he really does use character that way. It's irritating even when someone I agree with does that!
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Samp, you should keep in mind that outrage snowballs like "oh, I thought it was pretty good" never will. The few people here on Hatrack who have read the story themselves seem to feel either kind of neutral about it or like it, for the most part.
I doubt very many of the people castigating the novella have read it for themselves. You are willing to make claims like this from hearsay:
quote:Because, no. He's directly linking pedophilia and homosexuality. It makes it so that when he is rewriting hamlet to turn old king hamlet into a serial gay pedophile molester and that his victims become gay, it's predictable, and it's offensive.
I'd bet a lot of the others in the chorus are doing the same thing you're doing - taking other people's reactions at face value and then adopting the opinion for themselves.
Because, really, the actual evidence from the text for the specific claim you're repeating is rather lacking, so far.
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Synesthesia: Whether Die Yi fall for his friend because of the ideal of the opera, or because his friend (practically a brother) helped him in so many ways, is not discussed. They can both be true.
Major Spoilers*
Die Yi killing himself at the end is an extremely complicated ending. On the one hand, he now has what he wants. Him and Xiao Lou are at brothers again, and nobody else is in the picture. On the other, Xiao Lou has for the first time just said, "I can't do this anymore, I'm too old." And Die Yi once again fudges the line that was so important in his becoming an opera singer, as well as his gender identity. Whether that means he no longer believes he is feminine, isn't really clear. Maybe he too was simply over the hill and from then on it could only be worse. And so, with both of them unable to continue in the sense that literally, it would never happen again and their characters were dead once and for all, he kills himself with the sword as a sort of culmination of truly adopting the concubine character, thus leaving the emperor "Xiao Lou" alone with his grief.
Again the movie does not perpetuate a myth that gay guys go for young boys. It has a character who is an old man with a taste for young boys, we *don't* have a character who loves other men, and ocassionaly makes a trip to boyland.
If we don't want pedophiles to be confused with homosexuals, then when we tell people they are wrong when they are conflated, we also have to hold off indignation for homosexuals when we are dealing with a pedophile in literature.
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quote:Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those whoflagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.
The goal of the polity is not to put homosexuals in jail. The goal is to discourage people from engaging in homosexual practices in the first place, and, when they nevertheless proceed in their homosexual behavior, to encourage them to do so discreetly, so as not to shake the confidence of the community in the polity's ability to provide rules for safe, stable, dependable marriage and family relationships.
I see contradictory claims being made. Jailing people is not "the goal", but the laws should be "used when necessary to send a clear message".
How else can the laws be used to send a clear message other than occasionally enforcing them?
I guess the specific nature of the laws he's talking about is unclear...maybe some of them would just result in fines or something, not jail. But by saying - broadly - the laws should stay in place, and sometimes be used, it seems rather likely that he'd approve of the occasional jailing if that happened to be the law somewhere where gay people weren't being discreet enough for him.
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You just have to be accurate though. Most pedophiles are heterosexual, but that old myth about gay guys and boys still persists and it's pretty insidious.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I completely understand that Mr. Card has taken up the cause of vigorously opposing same-sex marriage. I am also aware that a writer cannot completely divorce their personal feelings and beliefs from their writings. I'm further aware that when people write fiction and non-fiction it's common for their beliefs to leak into some of the details of their stories.
So let him continue to leak on his own work instead of polluting a masterpiece.
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Has he done so? As others have noted, you haven't read it or spoken directly about it in detail with those who have, so far as you've mentioned.
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Has he done so? As others have noted, you haven't read it or spoken directly about it in detail with those who have, so far as you've mentioned.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Because, really, the actual evidence from the text for the specific claim you're repeating is rather lacking, so far.
Like I said, i'm perfectly open to contradicting viewpoints from others who have already read the text, and can judge based on that. Some people started reading it based on the outrage grenade going off, and so far there has been unanimous consent about what is suspected. The number of positions opposing this interpretation that have come from reading the source work currently stands at zero.
Furthermore, the word for the motivations involved when a remarkably radical anti-homo crusader like Card, who has said the things that he has about homosexuality and the ways in which he has pseudopsychologically explained it and also jumped on board the let's-tie-it-to-pedophilia train, rewrites a character to be a demonic villain who is also gay and a pedophile molester, is "predictable."
But since this is a new standard I can aspire to, sure. I'll read it and let you know what I think afterwards. I'm not going to pay for it, though.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's a tragic tale, do we start looking into whether the writer hates gays? OSC has written so many stories where the characters say and do things he himself certainly doesn't believe, they also do and say things he himself believes. But just because we find a character or even characters that are something OSC has denounced, does not mean the character exists so as to make a value judgement on that particular aspect.
It's the same line of reasoning people have used to accuse OSC of being a Nazi sympathizer. Or a hater of women. It's all nonsense, it's amateur psychoanalysis at best, and useless speculation at worst.
Your position is that it is wrong to infer from some ambiguously anti-homosexual content that an author who is on the record as holding anti-homosexual views in fact holds anti-homosexual views? Or is it wrong to infer that the ambiguously anti-homosexual content was inserted as a result of the anti-homosexual views held by the author instead of as a result of artistic considerations? Or both?
Whether these inferences are right or wrong, they are certainly predictable.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Ah, the old, your arguments are really a smoke screen for biases you aren't willing to own up to. Cute.
Well, I mean, answer the question honestly! Not in the 'oh sam is trying to score Points' sense, but in the 'maybe there's some partiality at work here, honestly' sense.
quote:I confess I have not read much into it, but is there absolutely no evidence that pedophilia is correlated with problems in sexual identification development? Is it ridiculous to suggest that if one were victimized sexually by an older male or father figure that they might then come to believe they ought to be attracted to other men?
APA: "[N]o specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.
Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual."
quote:
quote:Because, no. He's directly linking pedophilia and homosexuality
No he isn't. Just because he personally believes pedophilia in even most cases (if that) leads to homosexuality, that does not mean every single time he portrays a homosexual he is saying they are a victim of pedophilia, again look at his other gay characters who have never indicated a history of child abuse.
Please read this. Just .. look at it. I'm a little bit in disbelief at it, I don't want to insinuate you haven't thought this through, but .. can you see what I see in it?
quote:Explain to me how Hamlet's father, being a pedophile, molesting other boys in the court, and one of them definitely struggling with thoughts of homosexuality, perpetuates a fear, hatred, or negative impression of homosexuality?
posted
True. It's hard to see what's not ALREADY THERE. It's written in big giant flashing neon letters to me.
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Rivka, you have read the novella, did Card write that Hamlet's father is a homosexual that preys on children and deceives Hamlet about his death or didn't he? Have the reviews been false about the changes made?
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I have no interest in discussing a work with someone who has prejudged it without reading it.
But since a pedophile is not the same as a homosexual, the answer to your first question, Kate, is no.
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I really have to get around to watching Farewell My Concubine, but mainland Chinese movies seem to go whole hog into tragedy and suffering a bit too much for my tastes. The lead actor doesn't help much in that regard either.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I have no interest in discussing a work with someone who has prejudged it without reading it.
But since a pedophile is not the same as a homosexual, the answer to your first question, Kate, is no.
I did not suggest that they were the same thing. So he is one or the other but not both? I think that there is plenty of evidence to make judgments. I was offering you the opportunity to present evidence to the contrary. None of that has come forward so far.
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quote:But since a pedophile is not the same as a homosexual, the answer to your first question, Kate, is no.
This is one aspect of the current conversation that puzzles me a bit.
Obviously homosexual != pedophile, but wouldn't "homosexual pedophile" distinguish between a pedophile that is sexually attracted to same-sex children as opposed to one that is attracted to opposite sex ones? From what I've read or seen in movies/TV, it seems most pedophiles stick to one particular gender.
But besides this, presumably Hamlet is post-pubescent by the time the play takes place. If his father was trying to set it up so that he'd be able to molest his son in hell (or whatever), wouldn't he then be necessarily attracted to the adult Hamlet?
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True pedophilia is a different animal altogether and different from pederasty which is what it sounds like Card has decided to thrust onto the King.
Pedophiles often abuse either gender. Pederasts not so much.
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What evidence? Reviews by someone whose accuracy and objectivity you don't know about a story you haven't read?
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Several reviews. And no one has disputed the insertion of either homosexuality or pederasty or pedophilia or all three into the story. No one yet has disputed that Card changed the identity and motivation of the King's murder. No one has disputed any of the things listed in the reviews. Once again, I invite those who have read it to dispute any of it. So far, all we have to counter those reviews are some pretty feeble tantrums from people who I already know are biased.
One makes decisions about what art to spend time and money on based on what they know about the artist and the opinions of other people. That is why we have reviews.Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I'm sorry to say that when you go out of your way to alienate and discriminate against a group of people as OSC has against gays, then when you then make your villain into one of said group you are asking for strife and judgement, whether warranted or not.
It's like when Mel Gibson does a biopic of a famous Jew and people get up in arms about it.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I really have to get around to watching Farewell My Concubine, but mainland Chinese movies seem to go whole hog into tragedy and suffering a bit too much for my tastes. The lead actor doesn't help much in that regard either.
Yeah. Farewell My Concubine is a beautiful, good movie but I can never watch it again because I'm so sad that Leslie Cheung is dead and so many Chinese movies are depressing. Not as depressing and von Trier movies though. His movies make me MISERABLE. I want to see Melancholia due to nude Kristen Dunst but I'm not sure if it's worth the MISERY. But, yet, FMC will depress the hell out of you.
Also, rewriting brilliant plays sucks. I should rewrite Ender in Exile and cut all of the nagging about monogamy. See how he likes that! I'm already rewriting those stupid this Marine punched an atheist memes.
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On one hand, I think rivka is quietly and non-specifically disputing at least one of the changes. Also,
quote:Hamlet's Father seems ever-so-familiar . . . until it is terribly, horribly, and all-too-believably NOT familiar. 4 stars
seems to indicate that the changes weren't noticeable/offensive except for one twist (which I'm assuming, isn't what is being discussed, otherwise this has been one pointless debate).
On the other hand, I think it should be pointed out that the Publisher's Weekly review which indicates that the focus is "primarily on linking homosexuality with the life-destroying horrors of pedophilia" pre-dates the current instance of the controversy.
Personally, I find myself wondering if both are true actually.
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Inoffensive to Rivka is not necessarily inoffensive to me. This is probably true regarding both homosexuality and Shakespeare.
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Yep, that is basically one of the ways that that would resolve both without anyone lying.
It is not without precedent that members of the majority can miss an offensive portrayal of a minority.
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This thread is utterly surreal. Three pages of people making judgments about things they haven't bothered to read for themselves.
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Zotto!, how do you decide what TV programs to watch, what books to buy, what plays to see? Do you buy, watch, see them all? Or do you rely on reviews and what you already know about the artist?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I was offering you the opportunity to present evidence to the contrary.
If you truly wish to know what the focus of the novella is, you would read it.
My dispute is not primarily with what elements are or are not included, but with themes, focus, emphasis. All of which it is beyond ridiculous to discuss with anyone who hasn't actually READ the piece!
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quote:Originally posted by Zotto!: Three pages of people making judgments about things they haven't bothered to read for themselves.
Since I am pretty invested in cinema, and even occasionally moonlight as a reviewer and blurb-writer about film festivals and obscure cinema, I have to rely on, analyze, and make judgment based on not actually seeing a work, but mining the information and perspectives of those who have seen the work. And if you think it's surreal, well, I dunno what to tell you!
quote:If you truly wish to know what the focus of the novella is, you would read it.
It's not silly for someone to be intrigued enough in this controversy to ask people who have read it whether or not the allegations made in the OP's link are true (which is what I've explicitly done from the beginning) while having no desire to procure the work for themselves. Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I'm so glad the statement I made again and again, that Hamlet's father was a pedophile, not a homosexual is supported by the author himself.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I was offering you the opportunity to present evidence to the contrary.
If you truly wish to know what the focus of the novella is, you would read it.
My dispute is not primarily with what elements are or are not included, but with themes, focus, emphasis. All of which it is beyond ridiculous to discuss with anyone who hasn't actually READ the piece!
According to the response from Card just linked, he wasn't interested in the theme, focus, or emphasis of Hamlet to begin with. Perverting what he dislikes is certainly his right but I object even more vigorously to the novella being advertises as an introduction, clarification, or replacement for the real thing.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Is Hamlet supposed to be a child in this?
What age do you surmise Hamlet is Kate?
Old enough to have gone away to college unless Card changes that, too. Which would mean that the Ghost wants to "be with him" in hell as an adult not as a child.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I'm so glad the statement I made again and again, that Hamlet's father was a pedophile, not a homosexual is supported by the author himself.
I guess I have to ask, when there's controversy here about linking pedophilia to homosexuality, did you think that to be primarily about old king hamlet being a pedo AND being gay, or did you think it was primarily about elder hamlet's pedo molestation being followed by the victims of that molestation ending up gay?
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