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Author Topic: Learning the Guitar and Rocking with Rocksmith
Aros
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Rocksmith is a new "game" that puts a spin on the Guitar Hero games. Rather than playing with a push-button pseudo-guitar, you plug in a real guitar. An analog to USB converter reads the notes you play, and the game guides you through the basics of guitar.

Critics have noted a few negatives (such as it's more of an educational tool than a game, experts can't select a hard difficulty from the outset), but the user response is overwhelmingly positive -- especially for the guitar-uninitiated. The game has adaptive difficulty, and the songs increasingly add techniques and notes as you get better (slides, hammer-on, etc). There are a lot of mini-games that work on fundamentals as well.

So, I've ordered a guitar and the game. I've spoken with a few other newbs that have had the game for a month or two, and they're already able to play a few songs through on the harder modes. Everyone I've talked to loves it -- it really motivates them to learn, even if progress is slow at times. I've heard that the learning rate (compared to lessons) is huge, as you're receiving constant, adaptive feedback. I'm not expecting miracles, but it's a heckuva lot better way to spend my time than playing Old Republic or Skyrim.

I did play Rockband for awhile. I found that the better I got, the less I cared. I wasn't really playing the guitar. This game, at least, has some translation to real life. I just wish it didn't take so long to ship a guitar from NY to UT.

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Lyrhawn
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I've been looking at this for weeks and trying to decide if it was worth buying. From the moment Guitar Hero came out I've been wondering why they haven't tried to market games like this to actually teach people how to place instruments. It seems like it would be wildly successful, if expensive. I've been playing at trying to learn guitar for years, but I usually get into it for a few weeks and then totally fall apart when I have to teach myself anything beyond chords or just playing individual notes very, very slowly.

One of the critiques I've heard of it is that it never really teaches you the fundamentals. You never stop to learn notes and scales so you could take a guitar, look at a piece of sheet music, and play that without the game there to walk you through it.

I'm still considering getting it even with that limitation, and it sounds like it would still get me past some of my hangups, but that still sounds a little disappointing for such an expensive bundle.

Let me know how you like it. I'm highly interested in your response.

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Aros
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If I get to the point where I'm starting to take it seriously, I'll probably start taking lessons. No, you don't learn to read music. You don't learn a lot of the theory. You do learn chords and scales, though -- again, without being able to read notes or tabs it's somewhat limited.

Many of my musician friends think it would be helpful regardless. They say that building up the strength, dexterity, and muscle memory would be helpful (as well as many of the other techniques it drills in the mini-games). I figure that it'll be fun for now. At least if I take lessons down the road I'll have some ability to play.

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Lyrhawn
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I still remember how to read music from high school, so that might not bother me so much, and I'm betting I could figure out tabs online somewhere. That might not bother me so much, but I did read it was a criticism, and maybe a silly oversight on the part of the designers. Why not teach that too? Afraid they won't download more songs to play with or something?
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Aros
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I've heard from a few people who do play that the notation they use is easier to learn, and that the developers were trying to make it is easy as possible for the complete never-even-touched-a-guitar-before novice.
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Blayne Bradley
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My mom is obsessed with Rocksmith and has completely monopolized my Xbox; family do not let family rocksmith.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I still remember how to read music from high school, so that might not bother me so much, and I'm betting I could figure out tabs online somewhere. That might not bother me so much, but I did read it was a criticism, and maybe a silly oversight on the part of the designers. Why not teach that too? Afraid they won't download more songs to play with or something?

In the guitar world, sheet music reading is a somewhat separate and relatively complex endeavor. Guitar notation is very different from, say, piano notation, with a good deal of its own language and specific quirks that have to be learned. It's complex enough that I can imagine the company didnt want to dealve in the initial release. Save it for the classical version.

I'm wondering this is program teaches lead sheets and chord diagrams though, because without that, you're completely lost if you want to just search out a song online and play it in a minute. Tablature, aside from being an inherently inferior medium, is spewed across the interwebs by dimwitted high school students, usually wrong, and almost always more confusing than useful. But give me a lead sheet and I can play almost anything with one listen.

I'd reman sceptical of the whole business though. 6 years of classical training taught me, among other things, that there is no substitute for actual training. Your brain processes music in a distinct way, and "bad practice" engrains certain habits and instincts that can be difficult to unlearn, without direction. There remains no substitute for wise guidance. For instance, there is No way for a computer program to establish viable techniques for posture, hand position, tone, placement, etc. and if you start with unevolved habits in this regard,your habits are going to stay unevolved without concerted attention to them. And if you don't know what to look for, you won't find anything. It's interesting, people sometimes ask me how it's possible that I can make a guitar *sound* like it does. When I can't explain exactly how I do it, they assume some measure of natural talent I simply don't have. I was taught the skills necessary to achieve that kind of sound- a commuter won't be able to teach you that.

But that's just me complaining about 97% of guitarists on Earth, who treat the guitar like a mechanical object, and not an instrument. As non-troglodytic as I am, I do not appreciate most technological solutions to a purely analog problem.

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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:

I'd remain skeptical of the whole business though. 6 years of classical training taught me, among other things, that there is no substitute for actual training. Your brain processes music in a distinct way, and "bad practice" ingrains certain habits and instincts that can be difficult to unlearn, without direction. There remains no substitute for wise guidance. For instance, there is No way for a computer program to establish viable techniques for posture, hand position, tone, placement, etc. and if you start with unevolved habits in this regard,your habits are going to stay unevolved without concerted attention to them. And if you don't know what to look for, you won't find anything. It's interesting, people sometimes ask me how it's possible that I can make a guitar *sound* like it does. When I can't explain exactly how I do it, they assume some measure of natural talent I simply don't have. I was taught the skills necessary to achieve that kind of sound- a commuter won't be able to teach you that.

While I certainly won't question the degree of awesomeness to which you purport to "rock out", do you think that your average guitar teacher would be able to teach these things? I'd imagine that most teachers a layman-beginner could hire wouldn't be the equivalent of a classical education -- and probably wouldn't be of much more than rudimentary use.

I'm thinking about hiring an instructor for a session or two just to teach me to tune and string a guitar, and to make sure I'm not making any egregious errors. You're right, I don't want to learn any bad habits that will be difficult to undo.

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Orincoro
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I can't speak for all teachers. I think I am an exceptional guitar teacher. My teachers were at a level not accessible to the general public. You have to shop around, just like you would for any other service. Check credentials, consider habits and experience.

I don't rock out, by the way, I am competent, not a natural talent. But that's rather my point.

Eta: general rule of thumb here: if you are not practicing about 10 times as much as the time you spend in lessons, you are wasting your money on lessons. I am being conservative- I practiced easily 20 times as much, and I was not in a praxis track in music. Meaning that I had virtually no chance of being accepted as a grad student in guitar- though I did get inquiries about voice, which I didn't want to do.

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Kwea
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This souunds like a great way to get started at home, which is what most musicians do before getting serious and buying some lessons.

I have an acoustic/electric guitar I never learned to play, but I'd love to give this a try. Do you need any specific type of guitar, or do you have to buy their guitar? Or does that adapter plug into any electric guitar pickup?

How much is it?

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Orincoro
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If it's an analogue to USB, it probably converts the signal on board to MIDI or OSC, which means it would take any input in the right frequency range- maybe 65-880Hz, from a quarter inch cable.
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Kwea
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I just looked it up....it can use any guitar with a 1/4 inch plug, and is about $80.

I think I know what I want for my birthday..... [Big Grin]

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MattP
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Ordered. [Smile]
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Aros
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I do play the drums and piano. I think what entices me, is that it teaches as you practice -- instant feedback. Something of the technologist in me says that this should radically alter the learning curve.
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Swampjedi
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I'm having fun with Rocksmith myself, though there are things that annoy me about it (poorly thought out loading, mainly).

I freely admit the computer (or a book, for that matter) won't teach me to be a world-changing guitarist. I have no desire to become a concert guitarist. I want to play a little for my own fun. If that makes me a troglodyte, so be it. :-)

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Kwea
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DUDE! We should make a band and CALL it TROG!
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Aros
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Won't people confuse us with The Troggs?
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Swampjedi:
I'm having fun with Rocksmith myself, though there are things that annoy me about it (poorly thought out loading, mainly).

I freely admit the computer (or a book, for that matter) won't teach me to be a world-changing guitarist. I have no desire to become a concert guitarist. I want to play a little for my own fun. If that makes me a troglodyte, so be it. :-)

I've been playing guitar for 12 years, but have never had the money/time for lessons with a really knowledgeable teacher. I would totally use a game like this to work on some of those fundamentals I've never learned.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
Won't people confuse us with The Troggs?

I think they'd confuse us with Trogdor before that...which is fine with me. Hell, I'd totally name my band Trogdor, but I'm sure it's taken ten times over.
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Kwea
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Guess our first song HAS to be Burninate!
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MattP
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Initial report:

We've been playing since Friday (me and daughters age 16, 13, 11). It's nowhere near as fun or accessible as Rock Band, but all four of us have improved from where we started and we are anxious to keep using it. It definitely feels like you are working on developing a difficult skill, not playing a game.

I have two criticisms. First, the game mechanics and polish are both lacking. It doesn't seem like much thought was put into the "gamifying" of guitar training. I don't feel that there are ever any clear objectives beyond "do better" and because the difficulty increases incrementally and automatically as you improve that remains the only objective, effectively forever. Because of this the game does actually start to feel tedious after a while even though I know from experience that I can do tedious things in games without feeling that way given proper motivation.

The second is that RockSmith doesn't really teach music theory at all. There are plenty of opportunities to do so, but it's like they made a conscious decision to deliberately avoid doing it, ever. Every note is just a colored box flying at a colored string. It would have been trivial to overlay note names on these boxes but the game doesn't do it. When you do chords it does display chord names, so at least there's that. There's also no help with fingering after a brief lesson in which you are instructed to just use your index finger.

Overall, I'm glad it exists and that I bought it. I think it's going to result in some more time behind the guitar and probably compel me to seek additional instruction, but I'm disappointed a bit in the implementation. Normally I'd just be hopeful for V2, but I'm worried that it's too niche to justify the development cost.

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Aros
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I just got finished with day one. I played about an hour and a half. I'm a complete novice, and by the end I was playing riffs with three different strings on three different frets. I'm having a heck of a time incorporating the hold-down-two-frets / two-strings thing on the Nirvana song In Bloom, however.

I think it's fun as heck. But I can't feel my index finger.

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Aros
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Wow. Chords are hard. And my wrist is killing me. I'm not sure that it's meant to bend that way.
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Kwea
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SO.....how is it now? Still worth while?

I can read music, but I played flute so I can't read chords. I wonder if it would be worth it for me, particularly since I have a birthday in less than a month and my wife wants to know what I want for it. [Wink]

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
Wow. Chords are hard. And my wrist is killing me. I'm not sure that it's meant to bend that way.

It isn't. Stop what you're doing.

Examine your sitting position, and position the guitar so that the left arm has a free range of motion with the guitar resting away from the body so that the left arm ,slightly curved at the elbow, is not resting against your knee or body. The left wrist should remain roughly parallel with the kneck, and should *not* extend past it.

If you're sitting, consider readjusting your position to place the guitar on the left leg, with points of contact at the right upper arm, and right thigh, and chest. Elevate the left leg about 4 inches, and sit in a chair that allows the legs to rest with the lower part of the leg perpendicular to the floor. Not on a couch.

If you are contorting your left arm to play chords, stop, and find a position where you are not doing this.

This is why I pointed out that lessons are important, even at the beginning. Sitting position is extremely important in guitar playing. You should consult a visual guide at least before carrying on.

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Aros
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I'm loving it. I've got about ten hours in. I can play two chords and I have the basics down of power chords (thought they need some real practice). I can do hammer-ons and hammer-offs pretty well, palm mutes okay, pretty good at both slides and shifting.

The best part of the game is that they nailed the learning curve. For the most part, you keep shifting to new songs, with notes thrown in as you get better. All of the variety really starts to reinforce hand / string positions and muscle memory. Watching the screen really enforces the "don't look at the guitar while you're playing" mentality.

The song selection is pretty good. I'm having a lot of fun with some of the Rolling Stones songs, and one of the Muze songs. Compared to RockBand, I'm playing about mid-way through the set list on easy. But I'm really playing the guitar!

The only problem is that when difficulty is JUST BELOW that of chords, the game tries to have you pick all of the chord notes in rapid succession. This doesn't feel natural, doesn't sound natural, and doesn't prepare you for the chords. I think it would be a lot more effective if it just slowed down for the chords so that you can get your fingers in place. Playing an unnatural rhythm might work for a rhythm game -- but not for playing a guitar.

But yeah. Overall, it's great. Instead of a complete novice, I'm a moderately crappy guitar player. And I had finger callouses in four days. I guess that happens when you play the guitar for five hours straight. But without the game, I guess I wouldn't. My first week in, I'd probably still be practicing the scales.

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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:


If you are contorting your left arm to play chords, stop, and find a position where you are not doing this.


I wouldn't say "contorting", exactly. But my ring and pinky fingers are having to stretch more than they're used to. Case in point -- I have to stretch my fingers quite a bit to even touch my pinky to my thumb. After a few days, it's getting a lot better. But I don't think the muscles were ready to go from complete novice to some stretchy chords in three days. I do have really small hands and short fingers, however. Smaller than my wife's.

It's getting better. I've watched a few Youtube videos, and I think my form is good. I'm going to sit down with one of my musician friends, however, and make sure I'm on track.

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Orincoro
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Your fingers should not be stretching to any remotely unnatural degree, een with small hands. Form is important. You should also pay attention to your hand position. Place the thumb square in the middle of the neck back, and don't inch it up towards the top. You will be naturally tempted to do so to gain leverage to depress the strings. You should however be able to place a pencil between your palm, and the bottom of the neck, meaning your palm is not touching the neck, at all. This is a common beginner problem, and if you don't fix it, you'll stop improving.

You'll feel like this int enough leverage to hold the chords, butit is. Make sure you have solid points of contact on the right side to hold the body still. If it remains a problem, have the guitar checked at a shop for high action (nut or sadle too high). Above all, you should not ever have to hyper-extend in order to reach the strings or depress them. Contrary to popular opinion, small hands are actually easier for guitar, because length of the fingers makes it a shorter distance from the thumb as a fulcrum, and requires *less* extension, not more. I have mammoth hands for a guitar player, but this is no advantage for chord shapes.

Rule of thumb: you should at any time be able to remove the left hand from the guitar without the guitar shifting position. If you are holding the guitar with the left hand, instead of entirely with the right arm and leg, you are sacrificing position for leverage. This would be equivalent to trying to play the violins by holding it with the right hand and trying to bow it with that hand. Doesn't work.

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Aros
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Thanks. I'll check my technique.
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Lyrhawn
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I just started playing the newer version of this, Rocksmith 2014. I got it for Christmas and the guitar my family ordered for me finally arrived after 3 months of being on back order.

I played for a few hours earlier tonight and I have some positive and some negative thoughts. I like that you can either jump right into song learning or slowly work your way up through tutorials of individual techniques that build on each other. I plan to go through all of those before I try a song. I also like that this version has learning games built in that look like old arcade-style games (an attempt to make it more game than tool after the first version, I suspect).

Things I don't like: It doesn't tell me the note I'm playing or which finger I'm supposed to use for which fret. There IS a video of a woman or man playing it before I do, but it usually goes by too fast and at the wrong angle to really see which fingers are going on which strings. So while I can often get it, I'm often scrambling for which finger to use. There isn't always a most obvious way to do it.

I feel like it should have more videos for the very very beginning for people who have never played before to show, in-depth, some of these fundamentals. Like, they say to put a finger on a fret, but in the videos the player is always putting their finger just above the fret rather than right on it. Which is it?

So far I think this is actually a really cool tool, but I think it's going to have to be supplemented with maybe a lot of YouTube videos or something to really get it right without learning too many bad habits.

But for those of us who can't afford lessons, I'd say it's pretty good so far.

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Kwea
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I like it a lot, although I just started back on it. Having a baby puts a crimp on playing. [Big Grin]

I have the older version, but it works well. I don;t like how it changes what you are playing, although I understand why.....I JUST get something to about 85%-90% down and it adds more stuff! I want to get it to 100%, THEN move up! [Wink]

It's not lessons, but it if pretty damn cool.

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Lyrhawn
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I have mixed feelings on that. I haven't actually gotten to the songs yet, I've been going through the technique lessons. They're very simple songs, so I find myself liking it when they add notes, but not when they speed it up before I'm ready. I'll barely nail it on 80% and they're like "you're ready for more!" and I'm like "I'm REALLY not!"

I know I can manually slow the speed down and make it go faster, but that's tedious.

Still, I like it.

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MattP
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I've had the same issues with using Rocksmith as an introduction to guitar. For now I've set it aside and am following the free lessons on www.justinguitar.com. I'll come back to it when I feel like I've got the rudiments down better.
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Lyrhawn
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After a few more days of using Rocksmith my opinion has improved quite a bit. I tried to get into the songs and realized I really wasn't quite ready for that jump yet.

So I plowed back into the lessons and it's making a big difference. Learning the chords, learning some techniques, finally learning where to put which fingers when, all feels like a lot more progress than I made in the couple days I tried to get a full song down. Needed the fundamentals first.

I didn't realize you could put your fingers anywhere between the frets, I thought you had to put your fingers all directly on them. That's something I'd never had pointed out to me, so I was always trying to nail this tiny tiny target with my fingers and it made it way harder than it needed to be. Now I feel like a weight has been lifted off of me.

Also, my finger tips hurt.

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Elison R. Salazar
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My mom still has my Xbox under occupation [Razz]

My brother and sister and law were kind enough to lend me theres and I got my FFXIII save and my brother's version has a HDD but still.

[Big Grin]

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