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I'd seen Noisy Cricket but the sad face at the end always gets me. Also the CS:GO image cracked me up.
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i did plenty of try-before-you-buy, and that's how i settled on this one, and how it got my thirty bux
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"We just have to accept it," said Jonathan. "Prometheus was just a bad movie."
Adam, seated across from him, dropped his spoon.
"A movie is not a good movie if it is terribly written. A movie is not clever if it is confusing because of plot holes and internal contradiction. Prometheus is a bad movie."
Adam let out a guttural roar and violently overturned the table they were both seated at.
"Like, I mean, what's, really, what's the counterargument supposed to be," continued Jonathan. "does the movie want a special pass for some pretty shots?"
Adam, now screaming incessantly, tore the kitchen cabinet down from the wall. Plates, glasses and china were smashed to bits and spread across the floor.
"Well, it doesn't get one," said Jonathan. "There's no special exemption for, for, you know. Having your movie be full of characters who do dumb things that make no sense or are otherwise regularly contradictory with any established prior motivations or tendencies or expertise. There is no worse way to create meaningful tension."
Adam did a piledriver straight into the wood on the backside of the cabinet. If it shattered his arm, he made no indication he could feel it. He just kept shrieking with pure anger, suplexing random shards and beams of wood as fast as he could kick them out of the ruined dresser frame. Then he ran out of the room.
"The movie's essentially indefensible, but I've never seen a movie so indefensible come up with so many people unstoppably drawn to try to defend it. I just don't understand it, was there a hype train I didn't see?"
Adam's incoherent banshee-like wails rose in intensity as he sprinted back into the room, hoisting a file cabinet over his head. He threw it as hard as he could over Jonathan's head. It caved in the sheetrock and became affixed two feet deep into the opposing wall.
"And it's not even really that it's bad writing. It's bad writing that is equally pretentious as it is dull. And pretentious writing really sticks out when it's that full of plot holes."
Adam wrested the chair out from under Jonathan, toppling Jonathan onto the floor.
Now lying on his back, Jonathan said "It's both not fun AND intellectually unfulfilling because of its core weaknesses. Are we that desperate for groundbreaking sci-fi that we'll pretend Prometheus is groundbreaking? Are we that desperate that we'll pretend Prometheus is even just okay?"
Adam savagely mashed the chair against his own head until it broke into splinters. He then rammed his head directly into the doorframe, and collapsed, twitching, on the floor.
Placidly looking at the ceiling, Jonathan shrugged. "I just don't get it."
"I like the imagery," Adam said.
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"During Kibby's arrest on the trespassing and assault charges, Conway police seized the pistol he was carrying at the time. In a petition to the court to get the Ruger LC9 returned, Kibby called the seizure "an immoral and irrational unconstitutional restriction of my civil rights."
He also called any suggestion that he is a danger to the public "absurd and not credible based upon my character and my objectivist libertarian moral code."
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A social media specialist for a Utah language school that teaches English to non-native speakers says he was fired for writing a blog post about homophones—words that sound the same, but carry different meanings—because his boss was afraid readers would think it was about "gay sex."
quote:"I had to look up the word" Woodger said, according to the account Torkildson published on his personal blog, “because I didn’t know what the hell you were talking about. We don’t teach this kind of advanced stuff to our students, and it’s extremely inappropriate.
Ah, Provo. Shining beacon of education! Thank God Clarke Woodger protected these poor students from the insidious gay agenda once again. He's obviously the right man to be running a frikking school, unlike those "intellectual elitists" who, you know, have a basic grasp of the English language.
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It could have happened anywhere, but because this doofus is in Utah the "It's Utah, what do you expect?" line is practically knee-jerk. I'm sorry, but I'm tired of that.
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Daunting, I know. (That image is what got the guy fired for spreading his insidious gay agenda, btw)
Could you please refrain from the "students in Provo" snark? This is a privately run ESL school, and there's no reason to think it reflects on the community.
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: It could have happened anywhere, but because this doofus is in Utah the "It's Utah, what do you expect?" line is practically knee-jerk. I'm sorry, but I'm tired of that.
The single most ignorant, evil man I've ever had the misfortune of meeting attending BYU. Utah in general has a long history of promoting ignorance and intolerance, from the Mountain Meadows massacre on, to the high number of homeless youth (over 40% gay), the broken and abusive families, the poor education, and the religious oppression in general. Provo seems to be close to the heart of the oppression, and I've met several people who still carry scars from growing up there.
So I guess, while it could happen anywhere in America, it would be openly ridiculed soon after, and there would probably be an official apology and compensation. This, on the other hand, seems to be par for the course in Utah, thus my comment. I mean really, what else would you expect?
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Daunting, I know. (That image is what got the guy fired for spreading his insidious gay agenda, btw)
Could you please refrain from the "students in Provo" snark? This is a privately run ESL school, and there's no reason to think it reflects on the community.
Yes, it's a school that teaches English to students in the city of Provo. And this school happened to fire a man for, well, doing is job and effectively teaching English. Because the person (people?) who runs the school is literally too ignorant to understand that homophones have nothing to do with gay sex. This isn't a huge, Earth shattering concept, it's a word I was taught in (I believe) first or second grade. It absolutely reflects poorly on his community, and the culture of ignorance I've talked about.
I rarely get heated in discussions, but intentional ignorance is one of the most despicable things out there. Especially this sort of hostility towards anyone better educated, or anything that sounds remotely taboo according to one's religious beliefs. I have no problem with condemning it, and with criticizing people who promote it.
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: It could have happened anywhere, but because this doofus is in Utah the "It's Utah, what do you expect?" line is practically knee-jerk. I'm sorry, but I'm tired of that.
The single most ignorant, evil man I've ever had the misfortune of meeting attending BYU. Utah in general has a long history of promoting ignorance and intolerance, from the Mountain Meadows massacre on, to the high number of homeless youth (over 40% gay), the broken and abusive families, the poor education, and the religious oppression in general. Provo seems to be close to the heart of the oppression, and I've met several people who still carry scars from growing up there.
So I guess, while it could happen anywhere in America, it would be openly ridiculed soon after, and there would probably be an official apology and compensation. This, on the other hand, seems to be par for the course in Utah, thus my comment. I mean really, what else would you expect?
Sigh. It's ironic that you're decrying prejudice and discrimination while at the same time using An isolated event from the 19th century and one guy you knew from BYU to justify your prejudice about Utahns.
I'm not one to kneejerk defend Utah. Amendment 3 was an embarrassment, and the state has many pockets of ridiculousness.
But there's really no reason to associate illiteracy with Utah.
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quote:I rarely get heated in discussions, but intentional ignorance is one of the most despicable things out there. Especially this sort of hostility towards anyone better educated, or anything that sounds remotely taboo according to one's religious beliefs. I have no problem with condemning it, and with criticizing people who promote it.
Perhaps you'll take a moment to consider whether you're criticizing the people responsible or who "promote" it, or just people who happen to live near them.
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Sorry you're feeling "heated", but this is pretty poor behavior and I thought you knew better.
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We need not talk about Utah as though it were an exceptionally terrible state like Tennessee or Oklahoma or Louisiana or Alabama, but Bad Utah is really bad and on the whole it's just one of those states like Nebraska or South Dakota in the camp of where even most of the people who live in and like the state can't escape the niggling feeling that they could definitely do better than a weird third-stringer state
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in conclusion the only way to make utah suck more is to have heated conversations about a state sucking
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scifi bum: It's not just one guy, fwiw. There's quite a bit else. I also provided 2 other links that deal with broader trends and statistics, and can go on providing links all day to all the messed up stuff that happens in that state. The two specific examples I mentioned were because they both have to do with this violent, reactionary fear of anything non-Mormon. It's not at all my only justification for my dislike of the State of Utah, and you'll notice I say nothing against the people. I know quite a few good people from Utah, most of whom have fled the State to get away from oppression there. So no, it's not a prejudice against Utahns.
It's a disgust with the culture of ignorance and intolerance that has sprung up around the LDS Church in general, but seems to be centered in Utah. I feel my disgust and disapproval is certainly justified (just as my disgust and disapproval with, say, misogynistic aspects of the military is justified), and is not in any way poor behavior. I am under no compulsion to pretend that everything is hunky dory in Mormonland, especially after all the stories of oppression and abuse, some of which I have experienced personally.
I honestly think the reason things are still so bad there is the enormous pressure Mormons are under to turn a blind eye to injustice or abuse when it happens within their ranks, and to act as if somehow mentioning that it happens is worse than the fact that *it actually happens*. You see this on this forum, where we can discuss any number of topics, but as soon as the conversation turns to the Mormon Church/culture surrounding it, the wagons get circled and any criticism (and often the criticizer) is vilified for having the audacity to, you know, notice things.
It becomes this strange "how dare you notice that we're not perfect!" rather than "why do we continue to allow these sorts of things to happen in our community?" and "what can we do to address this?"
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I tried to think of homophones for either of those places and failed. Perhaps somebody else could succeed for I've failed in my comedic duty.
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I'll also add that OSC has written in several places about this culture of ignorance in Utah as well as addressing it in Lost Boys and in several short stories, and he couched his disapproval in far stronger and less polite terms than I did. (He also probably has better justification) It's the reason, afaik, why he left Utah in the first place. So I feel like this sort of criticism is not out of place on his forum. (He's also received considerable flak from other Mormons for not drinking the Kool-Aid, so to speak)
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Let's all move to Massachusetts--nah, Colorado's bigger--to ease our consciences.
those are indeed both better states to live in than utah so indirectly by way of better socioeconomic and quality of life conditions, a conscience might be substantively eased
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I'm in Colorado right now and it's 58 frikking degrees here in the middle of the day in the middle of summer. You may have an easier conscience, but you'll be freezing your ass off while you're at it.
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Yeah, I know, I apparently brought the crappy weather with me when I flew in on Monday. Sorry about that.
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Dogbreath, I probably agree with you on most of that. What I keep trying to point out is that there's no reason to associate ignorance of what a "homophone" is with Utah. There is indeed a lot of homophobia, but apparent homophobia is only half of what makes this story ridiculous.
You extrapolated from the incident that Provo students are generally not taught about homophones or other basic grammar concepts, and that such a thing would be par for the course in Utah.
Just not true!
(Even this same school had a past blog post about homophones.)
"What do you expect from X" is a textbook expression of prejudice, especially if X is a large group of people. And even on average, ignorance and fear of homophones is not something you can demonstrate to be a Utahn characteristic. (Because it isn't.)
Criticize away. I don't care, except when it's off target and spreads inaccurate prejudice.
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No, I just meant this sort of ridiculous mix of willful ignorance and intolerance is something I see as endemic to Utah. The guy didn't know what something was (which is, in itself, not a bad thing), confused it for something he thought bad because his church told him to think that way (definitely a bad thing), educated himself on what it actually meant (a very good thing), and then intentionally ignored what he learned and chose to fire the guy anyway. (a very bad thing) He deprived someone of employment basically because he felt insecure and threatened by a word that briefly confused him and made him feel uncomfortable. Even though the guy did not use the word in any suggestive way, did not imply any innuendo, and in fact had no malicious intent whatsoever.
You're being overly specific. Obviously, a fear of homophones isn't a "Utahn" characteristic. I would, on the other hand, argue a fear of the unknown or the forbidden, coupled with distrust of, if not outright hostility towards, anyone or anything out of the ordinary, is certainly something I associate with Utah. The point that homophobia is so rampant that just using a word with the prefix "homo" is a fireable offense should be a giant red flag. Also, the higher number of homeless children, along with a shockingly high percentage of gay homeless children, is due to a trend of "disowning" children who don't drink the Kool-Aid. The fact that it's more or less acceptable to kick your child out of the house to fend for himself just because he was born a certain way is mind boggling to me, yet it happens. And it happens a lot more frequently in Utah.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not really in for a protracted debate, though I can point you to some sources if you want. I apologize if my earlier comment came across as rude or bigoted, and I have no problem with retracting it. My intention isn't to say that Utahns are a bunch of ignorant scum (they're actually apparently the most literate people in the US), it's an attack on the state itself, and the culture in it. Insomuch as there are people in Utah that support or propagate that culture, then yes, my comments apply to them too. But it's not intended as a blanket "all Utahns are X" statement.
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quote: It's not just one guy, fwiw. There's quite a bit else. I also provided 2 other links that deal with broader trends and statistics, and can go on providing links all day to all the messed up stuff that happens in that state. The two specific examples I mentioned were because they both have to do with this violent, reactionary fear of anything non-Mormon. It's not at all my only justification for my dislike of the State of Utah, and you'll notice I say nothing against the people. I know quite a few good people from Utah, most of whom have fled the State to get away from oppression there. So no, it's not a prejudice against Utahns.
That's the thing. You come out of the gates using one story about some idiot to paint the whole state (and Provo in particular) as ignorant and uneducated, without any justification. You're walking it back now, but that's how you started this. And you are talking about the people. They're all you've been talking about. In fact, the only good people you've mentioned are the ones who have fled Utah, presumably to get away from the den of evil that the population is and not because they hate the climate and those pesky mountains.
quote: It's a disgust with the culture of ignorance and intolerance that has sprung up around the LDS Church in general, but seems to be centered in Utah. I feel my disgust and disapproval is certainly justified (just as my disgust and disapproval with, say, misogynistic aspects of the military is justified), and is not in any way poor behavior. I am under no compulsion to pretend that everything is hunky dory in Mormonland, especially after all the stories of oppression and abuse, some of which I have experienced personally.
I lived in Utah Valley for 11 years, including about 5 years in the center of Provo, most of that time as a BYU student. I don't feel that everything is hunky dory in Mormonland either. There's plenty of crap that people go through either directly because of the high concentration of Mormons or parallel to it. You forgot to use the word "hypocrisy" in your posts, so I'll go ahead and call that one out--there's plenty of it, and none of it is excusable. However, having interacted with a broad spectrum of people in my time there, I've got to say that there is plenty of good as well. Good people, and not just Mormons being nice to other Mormons. I'm going to continue to object to Utah being painted one way or the other, or classified by one culture or another, even if it's this monolithic LDS culture.
quote: I honestly think the reason things are still so bad there is the enormous pressure Mormons are under to turn a blind eye to injustice or abuse when it happens within their ranks, and to act as if somehow mentioning that it happens is worse than the fact that *it actually happens*. You see this on this forum, where we can discuss any number of topics, but as soon as the conversation turns to the Mormon Church/culture surrounding it, the wagons get circled and any criticism (and often the criticizer) is vilified for having the audacity to, you know, notice things.
It becomes this strange "how dare you notice that we're not perfect!" rather than "why do we continue to allow these sorts of things to happen in our community?" and "what can we do to address this?"
When you mix truths with generalizations, I don't see why someone can't come back and call you on what you got wrong, either deliberately or mistakenly. I don't think you have any more license to start criticizing anything and everything about the Mormon church than others have to defend it. I don't know why you think they shouldn't speak up--better to just take it?
The circling the wagons here, if it happens at all, happens because a few individuals are all calling bull on the same thing, not because they can't abide someone being so audacious as to criticize or say anything about Mormon Church/culture. That accusation, in and of itself, is a huge generalization and not an accurate one. You're painting all Mormon apologists on the board as ignoring the facts that you, personally, know to be facts because you know some people.
Yes, a better response to observations of bad things happening--in one's church, in one's political party, in one's favorite sports franchise, in the military, etc.--is to not hold one's hands over one's ears but rather to look for what needs to be done to correct it. However, not all criticism is accurate, generalizations never work, and outright falsehoods are just that and nothing more. While it creates trench warfare more times than not, I don't see why the accused party always has to just let it all slide instead of calling out the crap. Letting it slide might grease the discussion wheels, but it puts whatever conclusion is reached on axles that can't hold the weight.
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No, you're right, you also have the same right to defend your religion/culture, and I've jumped the gun here somewhat. By which I mean, you and Scifibum are both being very reasonable, which makes me feel my initial comments were far to rude and generalized, and so yes, I am trying to backpedal from them somewhat. I'm not trying to do it to be evasive, though, or to unfairly re-frame the argument. Just trying to be a decent human being.
I'll say in the past, when I've tried to address certain aspects of the Mormon culture individually, like, say, the trend of kicking children out of the house, the response has not been very kind. (this is something of a personal issue for me, in college I volunteered at a place for kids who had been kicked out of their house, but hadn't been picked up by foster parents yet. Many of them were homeless for weeks or even months) The argument usually winds down into a "no true Scotsman" approach where I got told that any Mormon parent who is abusive isn't really following the Church's teachings. But then when I criticized the culture, which, if not outright condoning such things, remains largely silent and approves of them by omission, or by making the shame of having a gay child a greater "sin" than that of disowning your child... I got told "hey, you can't just generalize like that!" It turns into a no win scenario - if I address individual cases, it's just anecdotal. If I address large, culture wide issues, it's prejudice. And, worst of all, "you're an outsider, you wouldn't understand."
So I guess my question is, how do I address these issues without being dismissed out of hand? I've provided both anecdote and statistics, as well as numerous studies in other areas. It all seems to fall on deaf ears.
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I don't think anybody would disagree that Utah had/has a problem with homophobia, as evidenced by how many gay homeless youth there are. Or amendment 3.
But on the aggregate level I don't feel like Utah reaches even one standard deviation away from your average state in terms of quality of life. I lived there for 10 years, and I saw great, good, bad, terrible. I saw idiocy and intelligence. I've been to lots of cities I wouldn't say Provo was difficult to live in at all.
I guess what I would ask is why are you trying to prove that Provo is so rotten? Is it because it's true but nobody realizes it? Or is it because you saw some terrible stuff happen there and you're angry at it?
Why is Provo especially notable?
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For international readers trying to follow this conversation, Utah is only about 3 million people. Provo is like 100,000 people.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: By which I mean, you and Scifibum are both being very reasonable, which makes me feel my initial comments were far to rude and generalized, and so yes, I am trying to backpedal from them somewhat. I'm not trying to do it to be evasive, though, or to unfairly re-frame the argument. Just trying to be a decent human being.
You definitely are a decent guy - thanks for being reasonable. I'm glad when you are active on the forum.
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BlackBlade: Provo is just a side note, a place I've noticed some particularly weird stuff happening. (like this story, for example) I'll write a longer and more detailed post about it after I fly home tomorrow night.
I will say that, as a straight white* Mormon male, I doubt you'll notice poor quality of life in Utah, because the culture there is literally set up to cater to you. Much like, as a straight white male NCO, I'm not likely to experience much sexism or bigotry in the Marines. Which isn't to question your powers of observation or suggest you purposely turn a blind eye, but you do have to actively look for the oppression, because it's also the nature of the system to hide it from you.
Hopefully you don't take this the wrong way and assume I'm being condescending or dismissive, because I respect the hell out of you. But a good thought experiment is to think about what it might be like to, say, be a gay teenager in Utah. Or an atheist. Or a woman. Then I recommend looking up some stories from a member of each of those groups in Utah. And consider how their experience differs from other states - both in the way they're treated individually, and in overall statistics. (The statistics part is important because there are jerkass parents who abandon their children everywhere, there are bullies who target gays everywhere. You needs statistics to show you how much worse it is in Utah)
It's about a woman at BYU who was leered at after wearing a perfectly modest shirt, then criticized for wearing it and causing men around her to lose control of themselves. What's really appalling is the comments section, where she gets pretty harshly attacked and condemned by numerous Mormon men. (and some women) Some attacked her calling her a slut, attention whore, etc. Some said, being a woman, it's her responsibility to keep men mentally pure. Some just attacked her for writing at all. (putting a "black mark" on the Church) And there's a lot of funky pseudo-science going on too. (which again, makes me wonder what kind of weird crap is being taught at BYU...) There's also a heartbreaking comment from a young women who was sexually assaulted on campus, and then told the assault was her fault for dressing provocatively.
This is one link out of several hundred I could send you too, each with it's own little horror story from Provo, or Utah in general. Some of these stories are from friends of mine, people who managed to get away. Other from kids I worked with. One from a man who didn't get away, and openly brags about murdering people in Iraq. He goes to church every Sunday and is quite active in the LDS community. (Luckily, he moved back to Utah 2 years ago, so I don't have see him any more)
But, all of this is out there if you're willing to see it.
*I'm not positive of your ethnicity, so this is an assumption. (though I'm pretty sure you've referred to yourself as white before) If you're actually Black or Asian or something, feel free to whack me upside the head.
quote:I will say that, as a straight white Mormon male, I doubt you'll notice poor quality of life in Utah, because the culture there is literally set up to cater to you.
You need to stop right there. I'm not trying to be aggressive, but you do. Flip that around, would you say to me, that if I was a minority, that I would be unable to see anything but negativity because I'm not in the majority demographic? When you tell me, "You're this, so you must also be this." That's a stereotype dude. Don't call me blind because I'm a white Mormon male. Call me blind if I exhibited symptoms consistent with being blind.
Literally the only thing I have in common with people in Provo, is we heard the same things at church on Sunday. You would probably be unable to find a place more different from Provo than Hong Kong.
quote:Which isn't to question your powers of observation or suggest you purposely turn a blind eye, but you do have to actively look for the oppression
I just read this. No, you don't. It's all around you, you can easily notice it. A Hawaiian girl I dated broke my heart talking about being brown in Utah. My friends KarlEd and Phoenix from this board came to Utah with almost nothing in desperation, and integrated into the gay community up in Salt Lake City. I've lost friends, been castigated by my family, for pointing out what I was seeing. I've seen the stupidity in much of modesty culture.
Am I omniscient? No. Do I get I still have privilege? Sure do. I'm also in Hong Kong again and back to being a minority.
But I lived in Provo too, and I saw people devoid of any guile. People who impressed the hell out of me. People who would do anything for you if you were down and out. Is Provo as cosmopolitan and international as some other locations. No! But it's as I said, not extraordinarily different from thousands of American cities.
It has some things that are unusually problematic compared to other places. But on the balance, the idea it's some horrible place is not something I can get behind.
I respect you so much too Dogbreath. No buts about it.
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Also, this video is a bit thick on the "OMG Utah is a conservative state, how can they do nice things for people?!" but Exhibit A for how Utah isn't full of jerks.
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You misunderstand me. By "notice" I mean "experience". As in, when you lived there, you weren't subjected to it, so you don't have the same impression of it. So when you say things like "I didn't notice a difference in quality of life", well, of course you didn't. It's set up so you wouldn't. I already specifically defind this and said I wasn't calling you blind.
quote: A Hawaiian girl I dated broke my heart talking about being brown in Utah.
A Hawaiian woman I'm friends with who is a former Mormon told me horror stories about attending BYU in Provo. (We have a campus here, too) Like, she cringes any time someone asks her where she attended college and will usually say "Utah", then "Provo", before finally saying BYU when pressed. She despises it that much. I wonder what the chances are we know the same woman?
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quote:You misunderstand me. By "notice" I mean "experience". As in, when you lived there, you weren't subjected to it.
Um, yes I was. Almost from the moment I started living there in fact. For me it was, "You're not really American because you didn't grow up here." and "Hey, why aren't you at church every week, you must be spiritually weak."
Did I have cops stopping me because I was driving while brown? No. But I do know what it's like to be the only progressive in a room full of fire brand conservatives. the idea that just being a white male means you don't know what it's like for other demographics is pretty presumptive. I've been a minority the majority of my life. Where people think because you're white you must be rich, so they can swindle you. Where people talk about you in another language with you standing right there because white people don't speak Chinese. I'm not pretending my appearance has not afforded me special treatment.
But I don't have to get a waiver signed for checking my privilege either.
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You keep reading way too much into what I'm saying here. I never said you haven't experienced prejudice, or that you haven't seen it. Heck, as a white man living in Hawaii I experience racism on a daily basis. I'm saying, specific to your comment that you didn't notice a difference in your quality of life in Utah, that of course you didn't, because the culture in Utah is set up to mostly benefit white Mormon men. You seem to realize this too, but somehow think this is an insult when I point it out. It's not. I get treated well whenever I visit Utah, too. So, if Utah seens analogous to, say, Colorado for you, it probably *is*. For you. For, say a gay minority teenager, Colorado and Utah seem like different worlds, the quality of life is so different.
To the extent you have experienced bigotry, doesn't that confirm my point? About that strange fear of outsiders you experience in Utah?
This entire debate is why I feel justified in saying stories like this are not surprising coming from Utah. And the response so far seems to be "yeah, Utah really is a messed up state, but you're not allowed to say it." I fail to see where we really disagree, other than a sort of knee-jerk, circle the wagons mentality. It baffles me, honestly.
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