posted
Man, that was heavy. Incredible to see what the cause of the accident ended up being, and how even though it was deadly, saving the passengers they saved was still a miracle.
Thanks for posting this.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The MayDayMiracle is really one of the most inexplicably impossible survivable landings ever. NO hydraulics. Nothing. Aileron stuck .. wherever dead hydraulics leave it, i don't know.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
A helicopter crash landed in my neighborhood recently, luckily I have always seen planes and the like as the most expensive coffins ever so I have become no more paranoid than before.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
People survive car accidents while going 70 plus.
People even swam away from the Titanic, some with nothing worse than a bit of hypothermia and unhealthy exposure.
But when the plane is plummeting toward anything besides a runway or the Hudson River apparently, you are going to die. There is nothing you can do about it. Exploding engines, you're wearing what? something akin to a middle of the backseat seatbelt? oh and that whole giant heavy metal thing smacking against a hard surface. Even if the plane is over the ocean the velocity of the plane is such that the water is no cushion to fall into. So yes, falling inside of even a small aircraft turns that thing into a really expensive coffin in my opinion.
As a matter of fact, last Thansgiving morning here in Arizona a man flew two other men and his three young children into a mountain. The pilot had tons of hours logged and he was also the mechanic, all of them died. It took a while just to get people out to the wreckage. I'll stay away from planes unless I really really really have to thank you very much.
Edit to add.
Or did you mean that in the way of "I can name plenty of coffins that cost more than a boeing 747?"
Because if you can I would fascinated.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'll stay away from planes unless I really really really have to thank you very much.
- commercial air travel is so much more amazingly unlikely to kill you (per passenger mile, air travel is safer than driving by more than a factor of two) that it pretty straightforwardly qualifies as the safest way to travel
posted
In response to your anecdotal (and understandably distressing, sincerely) evidence, AH, allow me to respond with my own anecdotal evidence of the hundreds of thousands of people who regularly travel by aircraft all their lives and not only don't die doing it, but aren't even injured.
I mean, hey. If flying is scary for you, no beef. I get it. Ain't sayin' you should do it. But...to assert the idea that it really is dangerous, rather than scary, as a transportation method is just going to be pointed out as flawed, simple as that. *shrug* Sorry man.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah it's the latter point that hammers it home for me, Sam.
For many years I thought sort of like AH: Yes, statistically plane crashes are safer, but you can walk away from a car accident, and you can react to them and exert some control over your situation. Flying felt like I had zero control, and I thought "It may not be likely to go down, but if it does I have no chance of survival."
Then I found out that I was just plane wrong (yuk yuk), and not only do accidents happen less often, but they're more survivable, too!
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:The association said there was one airliner accident for every 1.2 million flights.
asdf.
I mean I am pretty much clinically phobic of air travel, so I completely understand that feeling of 'something could happen that makes me totally 100% dead dead dead dead dead and then we will plummet to earth and death is completely assured' but I understand it to be completely irrational. I pop a good dose of xanax and fly anyway.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'll admit that I have never been comfortable with planes, even when they fly above me, I have been this way my entire life with no discernible trauma to point to. It has yet to be an issue for me as I don't know anyone outside of AZ and I don't even make enough to visit some distant family in Michigan.
This isn't like having a fear of house cats, there is an inherent danger and total release of control over whether you survive or not when you fly. Before you use the good 'ol "but everything is dangerous" line, travel by air is not regularly necessary for most people and especially not myself, so I don't go out of my way to do so.
Call me what you like, but so long as things like AF447 can still happen I am not flying unless I have a very good reason.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:As a matter of fact, last Thansgiving morning here in Arizona a man flew two other men and his three young children into a mountain. The pilot had tons of hours logged and he was also the mechanic, all of them died.
And how many people died in auto accidents that week? From a quick googling on average it'd be about 805.
You are more aware of airplane deaths specifically because they are so much more rare than automobile deaths. Car deaths don't make the front page.
Feel free to keep your irational beliefs, but at least have the courtesy to not pretend they are justified statistically.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
AH, linking to something like that is like linking to a story about a lottery winner as justification for the mass amount of money you spend weekly on lottery tickets.
Your justification does not accurately represent the statistical base rate of the event you are concerned about. Like others have pointed out, it's one thing, and fine, to say that you have a fear of flying that is irrational given the evidence. I have a fear of spiders that I acknowledge is irrational. But your fear of flying is not justified by the actual chance of death from flying. You are confusing possibility with probability.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: [QB] I mean seriously think about this:
quote:The association said there was one airliner accident for every 1.2 million flights.
asdf.
I mean I am pretty much clinically phobic of air travel, so I completely understand that feeling of 'something could happen that makes me totally 100% dead dead dead dead dead and then we will plummet to earth and death is completely assured' but I understand it to be completely irrational. I pop a good dose of xanax and fly anyway.
If that is the only way to get me on a plane, I'd rather take the train.
Now if only we could figure out how modernize America's rail roads, they are horribly outdated but there is a lot to change out.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Being scared of air travel is not about heights, its about control. There is an irrational idea that even in a car speeding at 90MPH, with you in the back seat while someone else is driving, you can control the outcome of the wreck. Meanwhile, in a plane, unless you are the pilot, you have no control over what is going to happen.
Its wrong.
Its irrational.
But it explains a lot.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I survived a commercial airplane crash. No jive.
.
.
.
.
I admit it was the airplane equivalent of a fender bender. The plane crashed into a truck on the ground, but the airplane undeniably crashed while I was in it and I unquestionable survived, without even a scratch.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't like to fly. It's a control thing. I fly all the time anyway, because it's convenient and I have places to be.
That said, I will not set foot anywhere near a private or single engine aircraft. Those things, so far as I'm concerned, are deathtraps.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:This isn't like having a fear of house cats, there is an inherent danger and total release of control over whether you survive or not when you fly. Before you use the good 'ol "but everything is dangerous" line, travel by air is not regularly necessary for most people and especially not myself, so I don't go out of my way to do so.
No, it's kind of like a fear of house cats when you factor in that you travel by automobile very regularly (I suspect), which isn't strictly speaking necessary either if we're going to be looking at things from a safety concern: you could work from home, or work close to where you live, or walk to work (plenty of dangers there, of course), or something. Riding in an airplane can certainly feel scary-I wouldn't even say it's irrational to be afraid of flying. There are some very sensible fears at the root of that.
But to be afraid of traveling by aircraft is a bit different, and as others have said, aside from irrational fears there's not a leg to stand on with respect to this fear.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I don't like to fly. It's a control thing. I fly all the time anyway, because it's convenient and I have places to be.
That said, I will not set foot anywhere near a private or single engine aircraft. Those things, so far as I'm concerned, are deathtraps.
I think that's the musician in you talking. Too much bad history.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: If that is the only way to get me on a plane, I'd rather take the train.
It is not. I take the xanax if I don't want to be distracted or stressed with my irrational fear of airplanes. Benzos are good for individual event use to short-circuit the panic response and make it so that flying is actually fairly enjoyable again.
But if it's not really available, I just suck it up and get on the damn plane because while I have had the phobia since childhood, it is irrational and I recognize it as such, and I'm not going to let it ground me while air flight is such an amazingly quick and cheap (and amazingly safe) way to travel about the country.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rivka: If you take enough Xanax, I bet I could get you to.
I need to be a sort of a PSA talking teddybear that says stuff like "Cloudy Niney Beary reminds you! Xanax and parenting do not mix!"
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: That said, I will not set foot anywhere near a private or single engine aircraft. Those things, so far as I'm concerned, are deathtraps.
Private planes are way better than commercial, because it's much easier to talk the pilot into doing acrobatics and buzzing your boyfriend's house.
Not only have I flown extensively in private planes, I've flown extensively in a private plane my dad build in our garage. Out of styrofoam.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to LOVE flying, now I hate the very idea of...then again, I used to be under 5 feet tall, and now I'm well over six. Stupid airlines, make a human sized seat would ya?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:. Before you use the good 'ol "but everything is dangerous" line, travel by air is not regularly necessary for most people and especially not myself, so I don't go out of my way to do so.
Traveling by air may not be necessary, but there are many opportunities in life that are closed to you if you won't fly.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rivka: If you take enough Xanax, I bet I could get you to.
Would you be willing to tie down my hands, hold my nose and mouth closed until I swallowed as well?
I really do not like pain killers, or any medication besides antibiotics to be honest. If I need to use an addictive substance to cope with something, I assume I should never be participating in that activity.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:If I need to use an addictive substance to cope with something, I assume I should never be participating in that activity.
Then you have poor assumptions. If you got an onset of agoraphobia or PTSD and found yourself unable to go outside your home without a crippling stress response (and yes, these things happen), and something like a medium-term benzo prescription would be prescribed to allow you to navigate your social phobia, would you use the same logic to assume you should never be participating in the activity of going outside your home?
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I really do not like pain killers, or any medication besides antibiotics to be honest. If I need to use an addictive substance to cope with something, I assume I should never be participating in that activity.
That may be the case, and again, it might be a practical reason not to fly. But it does not justify the underlying fear of flying, which you seem unwilling to admit is irrational. Or you've moved on and just don't want to talk about it.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't care that it is irrational, I don't like planes and that is that. There is no reason to believe that my unwillingness to fly my ability to function in my everyday life any time soon, so it is hardly a problem.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
AH made certain claims about the danger of flying. Those claims are factually in error. Admitting his fear of flying is irrational is the other side of admitting that he was wrong about his claims. He can do either one. Would you be more comfortable if I couched it in terms of admitting he was wrong about the facts regarding the dangers of air travel? It's okay to be wrong, it's not the end of the world.
This is an internet forum. We (the royal we) converse about things here. Often times we take opposing sides on issues. Sometimes we take opposing sides because we believe different facts. When someone has the wrong facts we hope they update their beliefs in light of new evidence. AH seemed to just drop that part of the conversation when confronted with that evidence, and now seemed to be justifying his refusal to fly with tangential issues. Which, as I stated, is fine. Our subjective experience and emotional reactions to things *should* be important considerations in our decision making process. But I also believe it's important to become aware of where those reactions come from and whether they reflect the state of affairs in the world around us or not.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I see your point, but keep in mind that people's phobias can be very personal and difficult to confront, so this one suggests trying to temper your logical and appropriate desire for upfront discussion with sympathy for people's foibles.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Is zanex addictive?
Xanax is in the benzodiazepines class of drugs. They can definitely be abused. Giving them to a significant addiction/substance abuse risk patient is a big no-no. They also can't be used indefinitely like a SSRI, because you end up with dependence and diminishing returns — in spite of this, they are extremely helpful for plenty of medical situations, and are often prescribed short or medium term to try to short-circuit a stress, anxiety, panic, depression response to something. I've watched a 6 week benzo prescription be used in combination with CBT to reverse profound phobias.
It is also melting away my plane phobia. slowly. by changing what would usually be a repetitious situational triggering into a .. pretty mellow experience, which allows me to gradually lose the phobic response via continued exposure. Which is the system by which I've managed to extinguish all my other phobias (used to have a lot). Plane travel is the only remaining one because it's a little impractical to take a plane ride every day for a month as part of a campaign of extinguishing a phobia. Oh well!
Xanax is particularly perfect for plane travel phobia because dependence issues (and withdrawal, which is pretty gnarly for benzos) do not arise if they are used as a spot treatment for panic response, and NOTHING ELSE.
One day I'd like to be able to drink on flights, though.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I see your point, but keep in mind that people's phobias can be very personal and difficult to confront, so this one suggests trying to temper your logical and appropriate desire for upfront discussion with sympathy for people's foibles.
People's phobias are allowed to be very personal. Illegitimate claims don't get a free pass if they result from an open issue. Afforded some respect, maybe? What we're addressing are illegitimate claims about flying and treatment. They can come from an admitted phobia or not, they're not given a pass one way or another from being respectfully challenged as being factually in error.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
