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Author Topic: Knock-knock-knocking
BlackBlade
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Stone_Wolf: Rakeesh has indicated he wasn't talking to you. That's what he is saying right now, so please leave him be.
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Stone_Wolf_
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BlackBlade: Rakeesh is lying. But for you I'll move his and my shots at each other back behind the veil, not that that is fooling anyone.
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Samprimary
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In accordance with my policies I'll be good and just give you a timeout
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Stone_Wolf_
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As the primary care giver of two rambunctious small children, I'd love a time out!
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
You and I will never agree about Science vs. Faith and that's fine.
Well, the important thing is that when someone uses Faith as a shield for being testably wrong about something, you're called on it. Which is what starts to look like what's happening here and which is central. You advanced arguments, but then reverted to a non-argument and a "I know what works for ME."

But you really aren't actually making a statement. Does faith in God ultimately have something to do with you spanking your kids? Is it leveraged as some reason why you 'get' to ignore science or reasoned arguments against hitting your kids? Where ultimately do you stand on the issue of the necessity of spanking? You never really responded to the question of if it were a vital or preferential tool for childrearing, only really that you want to make sure we know that you think (on faith, no less) that it's definitely not abuse.

Well?

Just thought I'd ask again for an answer to this.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Stone Wolf, my concern is about your son in the long term. I know he is only 3 now, but is he really learning that harming his sister is wrong? The impulse is still there. There is a reason he is doing it, and spanking is not getting at that reason. Most 3 year olds do not have the impulse to harm their siblings. Have you talked to your pediatrician about it? I am assuming he will be entering pre-school or kindergarten sooner than later, and they don't spank there. What happens if the violent impulses continue there?

Now, I am not opposed to spanking. I have been fortunate that time outs have been working for my 3 year old. My wife and I have discussed it, and agreed neither of us a philosophically opposed to spanking. We have just not had the need yet. As a teacher I know that every child is different, and every child needs a different type of discipline.

Sorry I didn't offer a more direct reply sooner...Liam, my son, is a kind and loving lad, but very rambunctious, and can get rough without the intent of hurting. When my daughter Winter was a bit younger, their rough housing got dangerous, mostly with my son sitting on my daughter's head. While there was a bit of slappy hands when the girl stole a toy he was playing with, the vast majority of the problem was the sitting on head/chest while playing.

So, it isn't really an impulse to harm her, just more a lack of understanding that it was hurting her. That and a bit of not caring, as she would cry, and he knew what that meant.

As to when he is about to go to school, he will be old enough to understand the explanation and no longer require a type of punishment that transcends communication. Also, hopefully, he will have learned from the spankings and (continue) to not do it.

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DustinDopps
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Just thought I'd ask again for an answer to this. [/QB]

I actually responded to the question of preference earlier in the conversation, so I felt no need to go over it again.
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scholarette
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I actually have no desire to punish anyone. Corrective actions, yes but punishing doesn't mean much to me. I believe in behavior modification and appropriate behavior. I am a reform not a punishment person. Just something I realized reading posts.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Interesting delineation...I could go for that.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by DustinDopps:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Just thought I'd ask again for an answer to this.

I actually responded to the question of preference earlier in the conversation, so I felt no need to go over it again. [/QB]
may i ask where it is? I'm not seeing it.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by DustinDopps:
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
People who spank:

Do you believe that spanking has unique benefit that can only be obtained through spanking? Or merely that there is so little harm in it that it's not necessary to consider alternatives?

Yes, I think it does have a unique benefit. A clever child can turn almost any punishment into a "win" for themselves. If they are grounded from video games, they can still entertain themselves with books or music. Or they can whine until their parents relent and un-ground them. If they are given a time out, they can use the time to think about how wrong Mom and Dad are and feel righteous indignation. If they are verbally scolded, they can "tune out" what the parent is saying.

A swat is an immediate, effective, unavoidable punishment for misbehavior. There is no ambiguity and no argument.

It doesn't work, however, if it is just a threatened punishment that is never acted on. I see too many parents use a spanking as a threat, but the kid knows it won't actually happen so they continue to scream in the store or throw a tantrum in church or whatever.


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Samprimary
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That's an answer to the question of unique benefit vs. lack of necessity to consider alternatives. It's ambiguous as to whether or not in his worldview it's a necessary component to childrearing (because he literally cannot envision a way to keep a clever child from using other punishments as a "win") or just preferable.
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Stone_Wolf_
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"Unique benefit that can -only- be obtained through spanking" basically equates to "vital/necessary parenting tool" by my reading of it. Of course I in no way speak for Dustin.

quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Anything in particular you want me to comment on?

And yes, there is: I quoted the study you furnished and say I -am- following those guidelines. And have you reviewed and will you comment on the the study vegimo linked to.

From my point of view, spanking has a very limited way it can be used properly, and a huge (read majority) way it can be misused. Therefore it must be used carefully and with forethought.

You seem to be coming from the place that "It's just plain wrong, no matter what, and if you disagree you are lazy and ignorant."

It seems to me you are being more close minded and absolute about this and should release your death grip just a tad.

Please comment.

[Smile]

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scholarette
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Stone-wolf, there was a multi year study that showed that a lot of people who in year one used spanking rarely in like year three were using primary form of discipline. That is one reason to recommend avoiding spanking. It is a rare parent who can limit it throughout their kids childhood.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Linky?
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scholarette
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I didnt save link when I read it a right now, my google search needs refining because what I am getting is not what I want. I'll try again later.
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scholarette
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Also, this is not saying you will become abusive, just that the tend goes that way. If you think about it, it makes sense. Spanking worked for you. Next time there is an issue, there will be a temptation to skip ahead to spanking because it worked. Over time that temptation could easily become habit. Again, not saying you individually but any general parent:
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Stone_Wolf_
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Thanks, I didn't think you were singling me out.

My wife and I discussed and agreed, that spanking is a special correction only for violence or truly dangerous activities.

And time outs still work great, heck, most of the time a warning works.

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scholarette
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Sorry, I cannot come up with a defining word. I get hundreds of spanking and effects on childhood, mental health, aggression, etc.
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Stone_Wolf_
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S'okay, I get what you are saying. Spanking is a powerful tool that can be misused very easily. I for one don't think that that means it should be outright banned, just -used properly-.

I'd love to see more stuff out there about -how- to use it properly, and what to avoid, instead of fearing that it will be used improperly to the extent of instantly assuming a knee jerk attitude that all spanking is a Bad Thing™.

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Samprimary
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* blink *

You can call something a bad thing without it being a 'knee jerk attitide.' Most people agree with me that spanking is a bad thing, but necessary. I claim that it is a bad thing, and unnecessary, so I don't accept excuses for its use and tell people they should move beyond the practice. If "don't hit your kids" is a knee jerk attitude, I'm a knee jerk, and a knee jerk attitude is a good thing. I'll take it.

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Rakeesh
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Some might argue, in fact, that 'here are studies by experts scrutinized by other experts that conclude that only in the very best cases, which are far less common than people think, should spanking be used-and even then, it carries significant risks and long-term conseques' is the *opposite* of 'knee-jerk'.

In fact, more than a few people have.

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Stone_Wolf_
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What makes it an knee jerk reaction is not *caring* if it is used properly or not, judging it as wrong *no matter the circumstance*.

And hey, if you are comfortable being a knee jerk, then that's between you and whatever God you choose to believe in.

Also, you specifically asked me what I wanted you to comment on, and when I answered you ignored me.

To anyone who else who may claim backing by studies of experts, you don't get to have that legitimacy without addressing the studies of experts who disagree.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
What makes it an knee jerk reaction is not *caring* if it is used properly or not, judging it as wrong *no matter the circumstance*.

Ok, so then my position is not a knee jerk response, because it addresses the issue of if there is a "proper" way to intentionally inflict pain on a child as a means of punishment, and advances the argument that no, no there is no 'proper' way.

There are other things that are wrong no matter the circumstance. Saying something is categorically wrong no matter the act is not 'knee jerk,' otherwise it's a knee jerk response to say that, oh, slavery is always wrong, and I don't care about your argument that slavery can be used "properly."

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Stone_Wolf_
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The clinical evidence -you provided- basically says there is a way to spank properly!

And I -can- think of a good way to implement slavery: Convicted murderers have to do hard labor and the wages they receive go to the families of the people they murdered. Easy peasy.

And you -still- haven't addressed the things you invited me to ask you to address.

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Samprimary
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I'll get to the rest later but

quote:
And I -can- think of a good way to implement slavery: Convicted murderers have to do hard labor and the wages they receive go to the families of the people they murdered. Easy peasy.
ew, no

1. immoral

2. unconstitutional

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Kwea
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not effective
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Stone_Wolf_
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How is that immoral? Murderers have taken the life away from the family of the person who they killed, the least they could do is make up for their lost income.

As to unconstitutional, who cares, we were talking about morality, not legality.

Kwea, not effective at what?

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Rakeesh
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quote:
ew, no

1. immoral

2. unconstitutional

It would also not really be slavery. Close, with similarities, but not quite the real enchilada.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I'll get to the rest later but

quote:
And I -can- think of a good way to implement slavery: Convicted murderers have to do hard labor and the wages they receive go to the families of the people they murdered. Easy peasy.
ew, no

1. immoral

2. unconstitutional

How is that unconstitutional? It sounds like something that is explicitly made constitutional by the 13th Amendment. The South has a flourishing prison slave labor economy going on, which yeah, I think is ridiculously immoral (and bad for the economy), but it is currently perfectly legal.
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Stone_Wolf_
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For clarification...are you saying current work gangs are immoral, that murder's wages going to their victim's family is immoral or both?
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Forced labor occurs when an individual is forced to work against his or her will, under threat of violence or other punishment, with restrictions on their freedom. [8] It is also used to describe all types of slavery and may also include institutions not commonly classified as slavery, such as serfdom, conscription and penal labor.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
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Stone_Wolf_
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Hmmm, guess that quote didn't say what I thought it said when I read it on my phone.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I'll get to the rest later but

quote:
And I -can- think of a good way to implement slavery: Convicted murderers have to do hard labor and the wages they receive go to the families of the people they murdered. Easy peasy.
ew, no

1. immoral

2. unconstitutional

How is that unconstitutional? It sounds like something that is explicitly made constitutional by the 13th Amendment. The South has a flourishing prison slave labor economy going on, which yeah, I think is ridiculously immoral (and bad for the economy), but it is currently perfectly legal.
the prisoners are not being FORCED to work and their earned wages/productivity is not being used as restitution to family members of victims. They are given, strictly speaking, the option of employment for piecemeal wages.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
The clinical evidence -you provided- basically says there is a way to spank properly!

And I -can- think of a good way to implement slavery: Convicted murderers have to do hard labor and the wages they receive go to the families of the people they murdered. Easy peasy.

And you -still- haven't addressed the things you invited me to ask you to address.

Anyway as for the rest of this: the clinical evidence i provided talked explicitly about how problematic the punishment method is. It is saying "there are ways in which a parent can spank in which the chance for negative effects is minimized" and puts this alongside a specific and clear recommendation that parents do not spank.

This is saying: not spanking is a superior parenting option. this is why we recommend not spanking.

If there is nothing explicitly to recommend spanking as a necessary or preferable utility for parenting, there is nothing that validates intentionally inflicting pain on a child. There are excuses and explanations for why it happens anyway. That's it. Still doesn't mean you should do it.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
If there is nothing explicitly to recommend spanking as a necessary or preferable utility for parenting, there is nothing that validates intentionally inflicting pain on a child. There are excuses and explanations for why it happens anyway. That's it. Still doesn't mean you should do it.
Put another way: 'best case' doesn't equal good or advisable. Sometimes, and according to these experts this is one such time, it means 'least bad'.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Maybe ...Says one set of expert's study...you have yet to address the other set if expert's study that disagrees.
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Samprimary
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You mean:

quote:
Originally posted by vegimo:
Like this study as summarized here.

?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Yup.
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Samprimary
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Ok. That is a dissenting minority opinion by Lazalere which was registered well before the american psychological association and the american pediatric association summed up metadata and research aggregate on spanking and concluded no good reason to recommend it as either a necessary or preferable incorporated aspect of parenting and led the APA to come out specifically AGAINST spanking. Using data far in excess of the studies he trended towards critique of, which in general showed all the trends you avoid any risk of if everyone takes my advice and stops hitting their kids.

In sum, incorporating his critique:

quote:
Gershoff says all of the studies on physical punishment have some shortcomings. “Unfortunately, all research on parent discipline is going to be correlational because we can’t randomly assign kids to parents for an experiment. But I don’t think we have to disregard all research that has been done,” she says. “I can just about count on one hand the studies that have found anything positive about physical punishment and hundreds that have been negative.”

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Stone_Wolf_
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Specifically can you comment on this:

quote:
In addition to being the first scientific review that directly compared child outcomes
of physical discipline with alternative discipline tactics, the Larzelere-Kuhn review
also overcame two common problems in prior reviews of physical discipline. First,
previous summaries of scientific studies did not distinguish between the outcomes of
overly severe discipline and nonabusive physical discipline, but grouped them
together.
Second, previous reviews have failed to solve the chicken-and-the-egg problem as to
whether severe misbehavior causes physical discipline or vice versa. The strongest
scientific evidence against customary physical punishment in previous reviews was
that spanking is associated with later behavior problems, such as aggression.6 But so
is every type of corrective discipline.7,8 If spanking should be banned based on its
association with subsequent aggression, then hospitals should be banned because
their patients die at a higher rate than people residing elsewhere.


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Samprimary
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quote:
If spanking should be banned based on its
association with subsequent aggression, then hospitals should be banned because
their patients die at a higher rate than people residing elsewhere.

I should hopefully not have to comment on how massively shoddy this reasoning is.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
The strongest scientific evidence against customary physical punishment in previous reviews was
that spanking is associated with later behavior problems, such as aggression.6 But so
is every type of corrective discipline.7,8

You missed this part, in your quote and your reasoning.
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Samprimary
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Do you honestly think that the science shows that "spanking has identical associations with later behavior problems as any other sort of corrective discipline" or do you not know what is necessary to make your argument meaningful in terms of preferencing physical punishment?
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Stone_Wolf_
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It isn't my argument, but see those little numbers after the quote, they point at studies...which might have some bearing on this.

quote:
7 Larzelere, R. E., Ferrer, E., & Kuhn, B. R. (2006, October). Longitudinal causal
inferences given selection biases and regression artifacts. Paper presented at the 6th
annual Winemiller Conference on Statistics in the Social Sciences. Columbia, MO.
Larzelere, R. E., & Smith, G. L. (2000, August). Controlled longitudinal effects of five
disciplinary tactics on antisocial behavior. Paper presented at the meeting of the
American Psychological Association, Washington, DC.
8Straus’s (2001) “landmark” studies provided stronger evidence against customary
physical discipline because they adjusted statistically for pre-existing differences in
child outcomes. However, Larzelere et al. (2006)7 showed that the statistical
adjustment was only partially successful, so that every corrective discipline by
parents was still associated with detrimental outcomes even after that adjustment.
Ritalin and taking children to visit psychotherapist also appeared detrimental when
analyzed statistically in that manner. Straus, M. A. (2001). Beating the devil out of
‘sthem: Corporal punishment in American families and its effects on children (2nd
ed.). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction.


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Samprimary
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So tell me what the bearing is? You're pointing at studies while not really telling me what point you are advancing for your cause, and I can only point out that the APA reviewed all available data and came to the conclusion that doesn't posit a preferable way to include spanking in punishment.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Okay, here is my point.

Telling relative strangers to "stop hitting their kids" is just worst kind of high handed bossiness. It gets even worse when you say things like you don't need to hear the circumstances, because of a study.

Even assuming that your intentions are as pure as the driven snow, your attitude and tactics are so horribly off putting and imperious that I can't imagine you are really furthering the cause you are trying to further.

Your claim of such moral authority essentially comes down to one thing, a study by experts. When presented by another study by experts your reply is basically, your experts are wrong, and mine are right, the end.

And your opinion is so binary you can not accept that some parents actually use spanking in a way that is effective and minimizes potential damage which even your precious study agrees can be beneficial.

Other then someone's religion, their politics, and their marriages, I can't imagine a more personal and important topic then raising children. And for you to just march up, unasked and arrogantly command people to stop using an effective technique with the judgmental attitude of some crusader protecting our children from abuse is too much.

Even if you are right the majority of the time that spanking shouldn't be used, you are still wrong to be so abrasively pushy, because it doesn't convince anyone and because you are utterly and completely wrong in a minority of cases.

I don't know if you have kids or not, but I can tell you one thing beyond a shadow of doubt, when approaching a sensitive subject like this, forceful condemnation is not the way to go about getting results.

[ November 12, 2012, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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Samprimary
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Your point is .. a tone argument? I thought you wanted to discuss the issue of competing studies, which I am addressing pointedly. Do you want to go back to the issue of studies, or do you want to shift this directly to the issue of my tone? Because I would prefer we wrap up what the quotes in question are supposed to be showing me in terms of things you think I have to acknowledge, before we discuss how you feel you have to be addressed in order to pay attention to data that exists independent of your feelings.

quote:
and because you are utterly and completely wrong in a minority of cases.
I challenge that this has at all been established.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Does your study delineate between abusive/excessive spankings and appropriate ones as vegimo's does?

It doesn't matter if your study has more data if it's more wrong data.

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Samprimary
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Erm, I don't have "a study." I have metadata and aggregate conclusions by people who have gone over all the studies. Larzelere has criticized some studies — probably rightfully — over being used too broadly against spanking practices and by saying that the studies have been applied too broadly given that they do not differentiate between harsher and more regulated forms of punishment.

Specifically what was at issue is that if two groups are compared against each other — one which is completely absent of any physical punishment, the other of which includes all physically punished children, ranging between kids who are spanked infrequently and with the whole gamut of 'proper spanking' techniques often advocated all the way to practically or literally criminally physically abused children, of course the latter group is going to test worse in terms of aggression. Certain researchers like Straus, et al have only had their positions bolstered when studies come out that control for these effects and make sure that "proper spanking" is tested against nonspanking.

What Lazerlere & co did is important to science, especially the science of spanking. I do not detract from his criticisms. The thing is, though, is that we aren't weighing one study against another. We're not saying "ah, you have a study which says one thing! here is a study which we found that contradicts those findings!" — to wit, at no point here has it been established that there's a prominent group of studies from which it can be accurately be depicted that there's a type of spanking that can be used with enough data indicating a methodologically determined "safe" range of spanking practices.

SEE: Spankings for the science-minded.

quote:
Some people believe that all forms of spanking should be banned. Others disagree. But researchers from both sides of the debate agree on the following points:

• Babies shouldn’t be spanked.

• Spanking children has been linked with all sorts of behavior problems, including increased aggression and poor emotional regulation. It’s even been linked with slower mental development.

• Spanking children older than 5 or 6 is a bad idea. Research suggests that older kids are especially susceptible to the negative effects of spanking. They are more likely to become antisocial or distressed. They are also more likely to develop negative relationships with their parents.

• Spanking isn't more effective than non-physical punishments that include reasoning. Current studies suggest that spanking--even the most restrained and careful use of spanking-- is no more effective than disciplinary tactics that combine non-physical punishments with reasoning. When spanking is used as the primary disciplinary method, it is clearly less effective than the alternatives.

• Emotions matter. Research suggests that spankings are most detrimental when parents are angry, cold, or insensitive.

All that has been established so far is that some ways of spanking children are potentially less problematic to the extent of possibly being almost as good as other forms of discipline. "possibly almost maybe not problematic" is not sufficient reasoning to justify using intentionally inflicting pain on a child, in my egregiously non-humble opinion.

If you would like to submit a paper/study/metadata conclusion establishing a 'safe range' of spanking I could of course consider it. I'm not particularly inclined to believe there will be a better aggregate conclusion than the APA/APA's recommendations against spanking, though.

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