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Author Topic: Knock-knock-knocking
Rakeesh
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Thanks for the response, afr. I forgot to reply earlier and lost the response box text-didn't want you to think I was ignoring what you'd said.

Yeah, I saw that bit too. It does coincide somewhat with what I would expect to be the result of a parent who used corporal punishment 'properly' (i.e. rarely and with a very large degree of restraint). As others have said, though, even that is not really a recommendation for corporal punishment as much as a description of how, if it's going to be used, should be done.

Also, as for the idea of child leashes, I suppose the get a bad rap, but there are many circumstances in which I can imagine they'd be not just unobjectionable but even a good idea. The cosmetic angle of it that ZachC mentioned seems pretty silly to me-parents already are required to treat their children in ways not dissimilar to pets-they regulate when they eat, sleep, where they eat and sleep, *how* they eat and sleep, use overt punishment and reward to modify simple behaviors, even speak in silly voices, so on and so forth.

So if a given parent is going to be in a situation where they can't feel secure enough in their ability to manage just how much roaming exactly their kid is going to do, for whatever reason (hands full, busy, crowded, multiple kids, etc.) then...why not, exactly? Would be my question. It's not as though anyone has suggested staking the kid out in the yard while you're inside visiting...

yet.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Also, I don't think a person is bad for spanking. I just find that spanking is not a necessary or sufficient tool to parenting.

Correct. I had summarized this up like a long, long time ago .. let me see if I can find the quotes I have stood by the longest.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Most who spank are just trying to get their kids in line and they are going with what they think works.

They probably also work under a belief that it is neglectful to not incorporate spanking as a disciplinary method. In that sense, most who do it are only trying to do what's right for the kiddo. In and of itself, spanking is not something I consider to be a cruel act. I just advocate that it is a misinformed practice that has better alternatives, and this only really contests viewpoints that assert that spanking is a 'necessary' or 'preferable' practice that is integral to parenting.

me in 2007.
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Samprimary
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and i wish i hadn't gone back for spankin' threads because they involve characters like malanthrop reminding us that yes, they bred, and they spank their children because it works for dogs right
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scholarette
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With children who don't speak Chinese, there is no way I would do hong kong without leashes. When they weren't leashed, they were confined to strollers which was a lot less fun and freedom than the leashes. But streets were way to crowded to feel safe without something. Not because of kids behavior but the crowds. My older actually liked the leash because she felt safer.
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Samprimary
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I am actually entirely for leashes. I got an extremely negative view of leashes, but that was from the early visible examples of use here being terrible parents who had no reasonable control of their children whatsoever anyway, and would just pull them back by the leash over and over again and bark yappy useless shouts at them, so.
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scholarette
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One of my coworkers recently posted on Facebook a quote about how we don't spank our kids ad then complain when they have no conscious. This is the attitude I get at work all the time. Every one of my coworkers believes that if you aren't spanking, you are a bad parent. I also talk about my kids and complain over the stuff they do (well I used to, not so much now) and they all use this as proof that my parenting style is failing. When they were kids, they would never have done the stuff my kids do. Based on my nephews who spank and other kids, mine are angels. And when I was a kid, my parents spanked and I did a lot worse than mine have even considered. I also like the whole raise your daughters rude movement so I will never force my kids to say hug someone f they don't want to. Our number one rule, for which all other rules can be ignored is don't let self get hurt. So if a kid is bullying, she can ignore rules and get herself safe (she once sat there while bullies spit on her for like ten minutes because her teacher said to sit there so we spent a lot of time on defending self). But, I am so tired of hearing how spanking would fix my kids and I am such a bad parent for not.
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GinetteB
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(((scholarette))) for what it's worth, I think you're a great parent not to use spanking, and to help your kid defend itself, and think and act for itself. Just know, if you'd live somewhere else, they'd find the others bad parents and you the good one (and that teacher would be fired). Spanking is just some habit, no habits are necessarily right just because they are habits. And noone would defend a bad habit by saying, 'I do it as a habit' they would come up with some philosophy to defend it. But luckily, in the end people are willing to give up bad habits, as our marvelous human love and intelligence win in the end (I hope).
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Stone_Wolf_
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While I use and defend spanking as possibly necessary at times, I in no way think that -not spanking- makes you a bad parent, and from what little I know of your parenting and personality I do not hesitate to say those people criticizing you do not know their rectums from a hole in ground.
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scholarette
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My sister in law actually sent me a parenting book that explains how to spank properly. That book actually kinda made me sick because it was very biblical, original sin kinda stuff. One claim was that if a child disobeys their parent, it should be treated the same as outright defiance of God. It also went on about how even a newborn infant is sinful and evil and it is the parents job to beat the evil out of them.

What I find strange is when I was a stay at home mom, the other moms I hung out with where more anti spanking. Now that I am working, my associates are much more pro spanking. Before my sister in law was just the crazy one and now it is like wow, she is not as fringe as I thought she was.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
My sister in law actually sent me a parenting book that explains how to spank properly. That book actually kinda made me sick because it was very biblical, original sin kinda stuff. One claim was that if a child disobeys their parent, it should be treated the same as outright defiance of God. It also went on about how even a newborn infant is sinful and evil and it is the parents job to beat the evil out of them.
Isn't, in such traditions, the punishment for outright defiance of God supposed to be everlasting damnation in Hell? If so, it wouldn't be surprising to see such an awful and yet also impossible, Hell in such a tradition being so much more cruel than any amount of human effort could accomplish.
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CT
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
My sister in law actually sent me a parenting book that explains how to spank properly. That book actually kinda made me sick because it was very biblical, original sin kinda stuff. One claim was that if a child disobeys their parent, it should be treated the same as outright defiance of God. It also went on about how even a newborn infant is sinful and evil and it is the parents job to beat the evil out of them.

5 ... 4 ... 3 ...

[Wink]

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Samprimary
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People who tell you that you are a bad parent because you don't spank are in that category of people who need to be shamed and have their opinion burnt out and prevented from passing to new generations.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Delineating between those types and people who like me only use spanking as a last resort, and use it properly is an important delineation, one which requires knowledge of circumstance.

I hope that your last post signifies a dichotomy of your previous absolutist stance.

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Samprimary
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My last post doesn't change anything about my Absolutist stance being Absolutely 'you should not spank your kids' — everything I have offered thus far remains consistent to that fact, and right.
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Rakeesh
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Put another way: 'parents shouldn't spank does not equal parents who spank are bad and unloving'. That distinction has been made at least three or four times in this discussion, and usually 'this particular method is wrong' is not read as 'you are doing this entire complicated long term project badly'.
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Stone_Wolf_
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My point is you should take circumstance into account to know which tactics to use, as parents like myself should not fall into the "people who need to be shamed and have their opinion burnt out and prevented from passing to new generations" category even by your entirely binary moral stance.

While I am utterly acclimated to the simple fact that you will not change your view that "kids should not be spanked" I hope you will wake up to the idea that being a jerk to all on the other side of this argument is at best counter productive to your stated goal.

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Samprimary
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quote:
I hope you will wake up to the idea that being a jerk to all on the other side of this argument is at best counter productive to your stated goal.
My tone is not a factor in whether or not spanking children is a good idea. If someone is unwilling to listen to the evidence on account of my tone, that's a problem with their emotional approach in listening to reason, not with the facts.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
I hope you will wake up to the idea that being a jerk to all on the other side of this argument is at best counter productive to your stated goal.
My tone is not a factor in whether or not spanking children is a good idea. If someone is unwilling to listen to the evidence on account of my tone, that's a problem with their emotional approach in listening to reason, not with the facts.
No, it's a problem for you too *if* one of your aims is to actually be listened to, rather than to preach. But that's an old discussion. And you're right to say that a perceived bad tone doesn't justify rejecting an entire argument, either.

That said, I wonder: how black and white *is* your stance on corporal punishment? Clearly it is black and white to the extent that spanking should not be done because there are other, better parenting tools to hand.

Is it also your view that parents who spank, to any extent and in any circumstances, period, ought to feel ashamed of themselves and be considered bad parents on the question of corporal punishment alone? It seems clear to me that this is not your stance, and more than once you've said things that point in that direction, but I haven't been looking for a fight with you either.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Is it also your view that parents who spank, to any extent and in any circumstances, period, ought to feel ashamed of themselves and be considered bad parents on the question of corporal punishment alone? It seems clear to me that this is not your stance,
If it's clear, why are you asking?
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Rakeesh
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Yeah, that is murky. I should rather say: having read what you have said on a variety of topics in the past, including this one in this thread, I don't think that's your view-therefore you are being this militant (in choice of language, anyway) to have some fun.'
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Samprimary
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No, issues like this are ones I am intently inclined to purposefully not coach in politeness, and state it straightforwardly without any regard for (or probably with the open expectation that)people are going to levy a tone argument and try to turn the argument into "you should be expected to tell me i should stop hitting my child only if you do so nicely!" — I am definitely being listened to on the terms I want by being 'absolutist' or 'militant' about it.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
I am definitely being listened to on the terms I want by being 'absolutist' or 'militant' about it.
How you figure? How many wayward spanking parents have been converted by your preaching?

And you STILL haven't given any alternative solutions to my situation.

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Parkour
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Sam has actually kept an impressive number of parents from spanking, and actually taught a single mother of two how to do it in person.
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GinetteB
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Specialists oppose the use of corporal punishment both in families as in schools, juvenile facilities, child care nurseries, and all other institutions, public or private, where children are cared for or educated. They claim that corporal punishment is violent and unnecessary, may lower self-esteem, and is liable to instil hostility and rage without reducing the undesired behaviour. They also state that corporal punishment is likely to train children to use physical violence.

By now 32 states have completely prohibited corporal punishment of children, so including spanking by parents, by law. In addition, supreme court rulings prohibit corporal punishment in 2 further states, while another 21 states have officially committed to full prohibition. Countries that have completely prohibited corporal punishment of children by law are, in chronological order:

Sweden (1979)
Finland (1983)
Norway (1987)
Austria (1989)
Cyprus (1994)
Denmark (1997)
Latvia (1998)
Croatia (1999)
Bulgaria (2000)
Israel (2000
Germany (2000)
Iceland (2003)
Ukraine (2004)
Romania (2004)
Hungary (2005)
Greece (2006)
Netherlands (2007)
New Zealand (2007)
Portugal (2007)
Uruguay (2007)
Venezuela (2007)
Spain (2007)
Togo (2007)
Costa Rica (2008)
Republic of Moldova (2008)
Luxembourg (2008)
Liechtenstein (2008)
Poland (2010)
Tunisia (2010)
Kenya (2010)
Congo, Republic of (2010)
Albania (2010)
South Sudan (2011).

Artikel 19.1 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child states 'States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child.' This Convention is binding international law for all countries, except for The United States, Somalia and South Sudan, who have not ratified the Convention.

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ClaudiaTherese
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I'll also point out as a gentle aside that many pediatricians, politicians, and other policy makers are themselves parents.
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scholarette
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If you look at daycares and schools, there are tons of kids in there and many don't use any negative discipline at all. Mine is a big believer in distraction and time outs aren't a you were bad, go but a we need a minute to diffuse this situation. More a break than a punishment. If places that deal With large numbers of kids for long hours can do it, I figure me with just two can do it. Though as stated above, I did work tutoring some very badly behaved children with only positive feedback allowed. So, I did get some formal training in discipline methods for kids.
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