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Author Topic: Ender's Game Movie
millernumber1
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Thumbs up for last comment [Smile]
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Synesthesia was quoted on Salon.com [Big Grin]

what. link.

I don't want to link it because it's a really harsh treatment of OSC, and I think it would be impolite to link to it from a site he pays for.
ahhh damnit
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theamazeeaz
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It isn't exactly difficult to find the article in question using said website's search bar, you lazy bum.

Syn isn't quoted by name, but if you click the link to the GoodReads review, you can see that was who posted it.

I went to grade school with one of their writers. I win. :-P

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steven
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I didn't think Syn's review was all that harsh. I think she painted all his later works with an overly broad brush, though. The Mithermages and Pathfinder series don't get preachy at all, and there was less than 1 page of preachiness in Crystal City.
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Samprimary
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oh. yeah. i'm dum. it's also now all over my facebook
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Misha McBride
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Found it, its from a Goodreads discussion about Ender in Exile Synesthesia participated in. Just go to salon.com and search for Ender's Game, the latest article is the one that quotes her.

quote:
In between things actually happening it’s ALL lecturing about marriages and heterosexuality to the point of propaganda and driving me insane.
e;fb
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Dan_Frank
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Well done, Sam. You lose on a technicality, but as far as I'm concerned your prediction was spot on.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I didn't think Syn's review was all that harsh. I think she painted all his later works with an overly broad brush, though. The Mithermages and Pathfinder series don't get preachy at all, and there was less than 1 page of preachiness in Crystal City.

I'm talking about the Salon article, not the review.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
Interesting choice to not put OSC's name on it. I predict we'll see a lot of this attempt to include the accolades for the book without getting into who the author actually is.

Because movie going audiences know so well the many OSC novels that have been adapted into oh...

No, I think they're of course hoping that the horrifying things that the author of the book has said over the years will go unnoticed in the press. It just might.

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Samprimary
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"The first decision I made was not to pursue the Peter/Valentine subplot with the Internet, because that's just watching people type things into the computer. The second decision I made was to give that information about the surprise at the end from the start. In my script we know who Mazer Rackham really is and we know what is at stake as Ender plays his games. But Ender doesn't know, so I think the suspense is actually increased because the audience knows we're about the business of saving the world and that everything depends on this child not understanding that. We care all the more about whether he wins – and we worry that he might not want to. As we watch the adults struggle to get control of Ender, we pity him because of what's happening to him, but we want the adults to succeed. I think it makes for a much more complex and fascinating film than it would have been if I had tried to keep secrets."

- osc, apparently

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The Black Pearl
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I hope they don't forcefeed a bunch of bullshit monologues.

(they will)

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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I didn't think Syn's review was all that harsh. I think she painted all his later works with an overly broad brush, though. The Mithermages and Pathfinder series don't get preachy at all, and there was less than 1 page of preachiness in Crystal City.

I'm talking about the Salon article, not the review.
Yeah, well...it was pretty close to being a flat-out screed.
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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quote:
Interesting choice to not put OSC's name on it. I predict we'll see a lot of this attempt to include the accolades for the book without getting into who the author actually is.
What do you mean, calling the film "Ender's Game" instead of "Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game?" Or neglecting to say "Based on the worldwide bestselling novel by Orson Scott Card?"

Orson Scott Card's name appears twice in the quick credit reel at the end, being credited as a producer and as the author of the original novel, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer:
quote:
Interesting choice to not put OSC's name on it. I predict we'll see a lot of this attempt to include the accolades for the book without getting into who the author actually is.
What do you mean, calling the film "Ender's Game" instead of "Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game?" Or neglecting to say "Based on the worldwide bestselling novel by Orson Scott Card?"

Orson Scott Card's name appears twice in the quick credit reel at the end, being credited as a producer and as the author of the original novel, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

I think it remains to be seen as to whether OSC's involvement will be deliberately downplayed or not.

My guess is, because of his relative anonymity AND his unfortunate anti-gay campaign, yes it will be downplayed. But, to be fair, MOST author's names aren't used to promote their movies. Stephen King and a few others get their names used like this, but it's pretty rare.

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millernumber1
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Funny, because in nearly all his books, his name is the biggest thing on the cover. [Smile]
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BlackBlade
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Sam: Do you have a source for that quote?
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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quote:
Originally posted by millernumber1:
Funny, because in nearly all his books, his name is the biggest thing on the cover. [Smile]

That's because he has established a name for himself in the literary world. In the cinematic world, however, that name doesn't mean as much. A simple artifact of book-vs-movie marketing.

Yes, I expect Lionsgate/Summit/whoever's-in-charge-of-marketing will try to avoid controversy over OSC's politics, and thus focus on how beloved the novel is rather than how beloved the author is. It's a simple fact that OSC's politics are a PR liability. But I don't see any evidence in the trailer for an alleged "choice to not put OSC's name on it." I think they're going to tread a careful line by acting as if OSC's producer credit means the adaptation is going to be "true to the story" and avoiding any discussion of OSC's irrelevant personal views.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Sam: Do you have a source for that quote?

just some obscure website

http://hatrack.com/research/interviews/1998-scott-nicholson.shtml

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:

My guess is, because of his relative anonymity AND his unfortunate anti-gay campaign, yes it will be downplayed. But, to be fair, MOST author's names aren't used to promote their movies. Stephen King and a few others get their names used like this, but it's pretty rare.

It's exceedingly rare. Even King's name was not much attached to publicity for Shawshank Redemption. Granted, that movie had some of the world's worst marketing, and only became profitable on video, once people heard it was a great story.
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tertiaryadjunct
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
The Mithermages and Pathfinder series don't get preachy at all

Sorry this is going offtopic, but I'll shut up after this one post. I haven't read the Pathfinder series, but The Gate Thief devotes a huge amount of time to Danny North heroically not having sex with his cadre of eager female friends because "I'm not married. That's the point." (OSC puts Ender through the same paces in Ender in Exile.) It was difficult to read through the uncharacteristically and unbelievably sex-desperate behavior of the girls, but at least that ultimately had an explanation. Who knew teenage boys (atheist ones, no less) are so resistant to the idea of premarital sex? [ROFL]
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by tertiaryadjunct:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
The Mithermages and Pathfinder series don't get preachy at all

Sorry this is going offtopic, but I'll shut up after this one post. I haven't read the Pathfinder series, but The Gate Thief devotes a huge amount of time to Danny North heroically not having sex with his cadre of eager female friends because "I'm not married. That's the point." (OSC puts Ender through the same paces in Ender in Exile.) It was difficult to read through the uncharacteristically and unbelievably sex-desperate behavior of the girls, but at least that ultimately had an explanation. Who knew teenage boys (atheist ones, no less) are so resistant to the idea of premarital sex? [ROFL]
That's a good point, I remember doing a bit of eye-rolling during those parts. As far as OSC pro-family preaching goes, though, it was fairly mild, and definitely better-handled than in some of his older works.
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millernumber1
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Hmmm. Really off topic, but I do think there was more to Danny's reasoning than "I'm not married" - it felt to me like he didn't want to take advantage (which is its own brand of unrealistic), and also didn't feel anything for at least two of the girls.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Sam: Do you have a source for that quote?

just some obscure website

http://hatrack.com/research/interviews/1998-scott-nicholson.shtml

I don't get my news about Orson Scott Card or his works from Hatrack. Way too much of a bias there.
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Rudy
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Just watched the trailer! After so many years it's finally here... few more months [Smile] It gave me the goosebumps even though I know the book by heart [Smile]
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by millernumber1:
Hmmm. Really off topic, but I do think there was more to Danny's reasoning than "I'm not married" - it felt to me like he didn't want to take advantage (which is its own brand of unrealistic), and also didn't feel anything for at least two of the girls.

The italicized part is what I was eye-rolling about. I doubt many teenage boys would have that much self-control in that situation. Some might. Gay ones would, anyway. ROFL
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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Steve Jablonsky to do the music.

I'm a bit disappointed it wasn't James Horner, as previously rumored. I haven't watched any of the movies that Jablonsky has scored; can anyone reassure me that this guy is capable of writing good film music?

Music is such an underrated component of the quality of a film that I'm very apprehensive. Ender's Game deserves a good soundtrack, now that it has got a good cast and good effects, and at least judging from the Google+ hangout, a director that cares about the integrity of the story. Theoretically, bad music doesn't break a good movie, but I can't for the life of me think of a single example of a movie that I think is great that also has remarkably bad music (though maybe Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind with its annoying baby-singing "na-na" track comes close).

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millernumber1
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Yeah, I'm not quite sure what I feel. I love the last cue for The Island that Jablonsky did, but his stuff is too Hans Zimmer, not enough thoughtful, thematic, and intelligent. I mean, I wasn't super thrilled with Horner - he's never done anything I really loved (though I quite like The Four Feathers). My ideal score would have been composed by James Newton Howard. But...well...I can hope.

C3PO - Jablonsky is one of Hans Zimmer's proteges, and as such, tends to write with an overreliance of electronic drums and synth/sampled orchestra and choirs. His melodies aren't terribly memorable, and his harmonies are pretty much bog standard (though the last isn't actually uncommon these days, even for composers I respect more). When he does come off his electric drums, his stuff can be quite nice, but I really want Ender's Game to have a smart, beautiful score, not something I only like one or two cues from.

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steven
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I wonder how John Williams would have handled scoring this movie. Sure he can do blockbusters and swashbuckling space adventures well (REALLY well), but (assuming this movie is true to the book) can he do a story like this as well, about the stress on Ender's crumbling psyche and the intimate details of his emotions? I just wonder.
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Rakeesh
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Fiddler on the Roof, Empire Strikes Back, Schindler's List, Sabrina, Amistad, Catch Me If You Can, Minority Report...well, you're certainly right that he's bigger in movies with `splosions or bitchin' action scenes, but I think he's definitely got the chops for something much more subtle and emotional than that.

Of course it remains to be seen whether this movie will *be* one where stresses on Ender's psyche are featured, but time will tell!

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steven
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I'm really curious to see if they do the "Giant's Drink" storyline, and if they show how the Bugger queens are part of that.
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millernumber1
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Well, Butterfield said they filmed some of the Fantasy Game, and Giant's Drink is a big part of that.

I agree that Williams could do it - it's just that the scores of his that I think are his best are the ones with flashy themes. Perhaps the Harry Potter themes indicate there is more there, but on the whole, I wouldn't see Williams as a fit for the book.

Of course, I wouldn't fit Jablonsky, either. Honestly, if I had to pick a Zimmer-protege, I would probably go with John Powell or Henry Jackman.

But I'd rather not have a Zimmer-protege, sadly.

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Brian J. Hill
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quote:
But I'd rather not have a Zimmer-protege, sadly.
Agreed. Unfortunately most Zimmer-influenced films tend to recycle old themes/motifs, and I can't think of many Zimmer or Zimmer-influenced films that would work for what I have in mind for Ender's Game. The only exception: I loved Geoff Zanelli's work on "Into the West" and have heard he did a good job with "The Odd Life of Timothy Green." A Zanelli-scored movie may just work.
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millernumber1
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Well, sadly, we get Jablonsky. Who, as I said, composed some good stuff at the end of The Island, but on the whole, is one of the less varied Zimmer-proteges. I'll have to check out Zanelli, though - thanks for the rec!
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I wonder how John Williams would have handled scoring this movie. Sure he can do blockbusters and swashbuckling space adventures well (REALLY well), but (assuming this movie is true to the book) can he do a story like this as well, about the stress on Ender's crumbling psyche and the intimate details of his emotions? I just wonder.

No.


John Williams is the most overrated composer in modern history. He's a good composer, but overall his influence had a negative effect on film composition after his earlier work, if it had an effect at all.

He also helped to pioneer the "composer as name brand" paradigm in Hollywood. The dirty little secret being that John Williams himself hasn't scored much of any of his movies for decades- this is done by one of the countless hundreds of talented younger composers who waste their creative efforts working for him after finishing programs at USC, or wherever. This instead of doing small films or just doing something new with their talents.

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millernumber1
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That sounds like Hans Zimmer. I've not really heard Willaims collaborated/had ghostwriters, though I believe he has used orchestrators for most of his career. Is there anything written on this subject?
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by millernumber1:
That sounds like Hans Zimmer. I've not really heard Willaims collaborated/had ghostwriters, though I believe he has used orchestrators for most of his career. Is there anything written on this subject?

It's not *exactly* ghostwriting. And while plenty of professional composers use orchestrators (really most of them have to use editors due to the complexity of the work*), Williams runs something similar to Phillip Glass's composition workshop: that is, he "sketches" a few ideas, and somebody else, or rather a team of people, compose and orchestrate the music under his direction. He is more a director than a composer, and as a composer he is not the titan his reputation has made him.

Zimmer is worse, btw, but only by degrees. And both of them are at least better than James Horner, who sinks so low as to just blatantly re-use the same thematic material over, and over, and over again in film after film.

Granted, and please note, I am saying this based on hearsay and things told to me by people in the industry (I know a number of industry composers and sound people). This is a well known paradigm in Hollywood, and one that usually gets kept under wraps with non-disclosure agreements, for obvious reasons. Given that, take what I say as merely a product of hearsay- nevertheless, this is a bit of an open secret. It is profitable and marketable to use a name composer, and for practical purposes, it matters very little how much input that person has on the actual output. Does he work with the musicians? Does he plan the orchestration himself? Does he draft the work? Does he write the parts?

Somebody like Tan Dun, who has done a little bit of film, sketches the themes, drafts the work, overseas the editing and orchestration work and works directly with the soloists, and then conducts the recordings himself. But he gets significantly less work done than Williams does- his work is just much better for the effort he puts in. Same for Johnny Greenwood, Nick Cave, and others. They do a film every few years, if that. Williams is a brand: he has been credited with an average of one award winning film score a year for nearly 50 years (and has written many other works in that time). But a single film score represents an incredible amount of work, and for someone like Williams, that means a significant number of people making more than minor contributions during that time.

I'm not trying to say Williams is a complete hack. He is a talented impressario and a talented director, melodist and orchestrator. He would have to be. But the myth of the great 20th century composer is that he sustains this output on his own. Meanwhile, there are quite a few new and equally talented composers who get no chance to fill his shoes, because he occupies the space in the industry that he has.

*As for orchestration, I have no problem whatsoever with orchestrators working from sketches. Orchestration in detail is complex, time consuming, and repetitive work, and certain aspects of it can be left to worker-bees who do it for a living. Many composers of large pieces will use apprentices or orchestration studios to do this work- I've known people who did this for a living. Often a music typesetting workshop will extend these services to composers who are not completely versed in orchestration for the ensemble being used.


Orchestrating for a diverse group is excessively complicated and often requires input from multiple specialists, because different instruments have their own very specific methods of notation. A high budget, highly professional score will employ the work of specialists in different instrument types to refine the orchestration and the notation- no one person can really do that well.

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millernumber1
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Interesting - I would actually accuse Zimmer of more self-plagiarizing than Horner, though I don't actually like Horner's work that much, so I haven't sought it out (and it hasn't been forced upon me like Zimmer and his proteges).

I was under the impression that Williams does conduct his own work.

I don't know if it's entirely accurate, but I believe Howard Shore's reputation is that he hand-writes his own scores, orchestrates, and conducts them.

The "Williams" (or Zimmer or what have you) brand is definitely a truth about film scores. I've been much more frustrated with television scoring, which uses the same principle - one name becomes the credit for a whole studio of people working the same method. Additionally, the scoring, simply due to the constraints of time (and, sadly, taste), is so much less complex and satisfying.

Thanks for sharing! Until you commented, the biggest complaint I'd heard/voiced about Williams' work is that he tends to be a bit blatant in his rips from classical/contemporary art composers (Stravinsky's Rite of Spring for Star Wars: A New Hope, Off's O Fortuna for Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, etc, etc).

I wish there was more credit and transparency in collaborative businesses, but it's often much more profitable to hide things under one name. [Frown]

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Orincoro
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quote:
was under the impression that Williams does conduct his own work.
He does. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
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steven
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Orincoro, you make Williams sound like the Dread Pirate Roberts. ROFL
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Orincoro
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Good night George Lucas. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.
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Destineer
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I thought the question millernumber1 was raising was not "Does John Williams has artistic integrity?", but rather "Would a John Williams score for Ender's Game be a good score?"
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millernumber1
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Well, both questions are good ones, actually. But since this is the Ender's Game thread, more the latter. [Smile]

I'm torturing myself by listening to James Newton Howard scores and wishing he was the one on Ender's Game...

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Scott R
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I listen to Zimmer, Horner, and Williams when I write precisely because their work is anonymous enough I can kind of apply it to any scene I happen to be writing.

It doesn't really work with someone like, say, Phillip Glass.

I recently listened to the Episode IV soundtrack and was surprised at how inventive and oddball it was. His recent work is cold cereal by comparison.

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Scott R
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I'm looking forward to the movie. I hope they don't screw it up.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Good night George Lucas. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.

ROFL
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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
"The first decision I made was not to pursue the Peter/Valentine subplot with the Internet, because that's just watching people type things into the computer. The second decision I made was to give that information about the surprise at the end from the start. In my script we know who Mazer Rackham really is and we know what is at stake as Ender plays his games. But Ender doesn't know, so I think the suspense is actually increased because the audience knows we're about the business of saving the world and that everything depends on this child not understanding that. We care all the more about whether he wins – and we worry that he might not want to. As we watch the adults struggle to get control of Ender, we pity him because of what's happening to him, but we want the adults to succeed. I think it makes for a much more complex and fascinating film than it would have been if I had tried to keep secrets."

- osc, apparently

The reasoning is sound but I'll be mortified without any part of Peter and Val taking over the world not making it in [Frown]

It's what sets the stage for the Shadow Books for Petes sake, and that could make a good mini series. The only requirement for it to work is to make sure to show that the "Internet" as we know it no longer exists but is very much heavily controlled by the Hegemony.

Which I think was the dumbest argument I ever had online was with someone who actually held it against Card for not predicting the internet despite that very reasonable interpretation.

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millernumber1
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The IF Sentinel site seems to indicate that the internet discussion is a part of the worldbuilding (though I'm guessing they're also tying into official forums or what have you). And I hope that casting Abigail Breslin indicates some kind of strong role for Val.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:

I recently listened to the Episode IV soundtrack and was surprised at how inventive and oddball it was. His recent work is cold cereal by comparison.

There are not many composers who keep the fire for 50 years. Writers sometimes experience their very best periods in later years precisely because the passionate urgency is gone. Cormac Mcarthy springs to mind as an example of an older author who's latter day coldness is exactly what makes his work so good. This is rarely a positive attribute for a composer: Stravinsky, Copland, Carter, Haydn, all became exceedingly skilled, but less urgent- less gripping. Composers, much more than writers, are likely to live to see the day in which the art has passed them by.
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Hobbes
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I completely agree, but there are a reasonable number of exceptions. Strauss's "Four Last Songs" spring to mind, as does Wagner's transcendent orchestral score for Parsifal. John Adams is still turning out what I consider to be first rate work, from his "Transmigration of Souls" to Dr. Atomic. Whatever you think of Stockhausen, his Licht opera cycle is one of the more ambitious works attempted by a modern composer and he was working on that until I think four years prior to his demise.

Which isn't to downplay your point, just that I always have hope for those composers whose work I really love. [Smile]

Hobbes [Smile]

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