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Author Topic: Alyssa Rosenberg really hates Orson Scott Card
Sa'eed
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She's not so subtly calling for a boycott of the film.

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/07/15/2295481/five-movies-you-should-support-in-addition-to-or-instead-of-enders-game/

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TomDavidson
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You managed to completely misread her post, interestingly enough.
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Synesthesia
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It's hard not to blame her. He's just so mean about this issue.
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Xavier
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Also read this where she credits Valentine as being an inspiration for her becoming a writer. It'd be difficult to reduce her obviously complex feelings for the man as simple "hatred".

[ July 15, 2013, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]

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Wingracer
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I read absolutely ZERO hate in that article. In fact, it's probably the most cool-headed and logical article I have seen on the subject to date.
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Sa'eed
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She's been going on in that vain for months now and encouraging her readers to feel guilty about seeing "Ender's Game."
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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
Also read this where she credits Valentine as being an inspiration for her becoming a writer. It'd be difficult to reduce her obviously complex feelings for the man as simple "hatred".

Really?

Seems pretty straightforward. Look at the headline of the article you linked.

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TomDavidson
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There are lots of awful people I don't hate.
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millernumber1
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Who I am sure you like to write articles in which a main point is the pointing out of the awfulness of these people.
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TomDavidson
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I would say, rather, that the main point of her article is not to argue why Card is awful but, given that Card is awful, present options for ethically engaging with his work as a consumer.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
Also read this where she credits Valentine as being an inspiration for her becoming a writer. It'd be difficult to reduce her obviously complex feelings for the man as simple "hatred".

Really?

Seems pretty straightforward. Look at the headline of the article you linked.

If that's so, then surely Card also hates liberals, Obama, and any advocates for SSM, yes?
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BlackBlade
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I'm really not comfortable with a thread where we link article after article and determine which ones are written by people who hate Mr. Card, and which ones just think he is an awful human being. I certainly wouldn't allow articles talking about why one of you is deserving of hatred on this board.

I'll leave the thread be for now, but I'd appreciate if this principle was adhered to in the future.

Ender's Game is coming out soon, there will be a flurry of articles discussing the film, the boycott, and I know y'all want to discuss them. But avoid articles trying to establish whether Mr. Card is a villain or anything else for that matter.

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Xavier
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quote:
I'm really not comfortable with a thread where we link article after article and determine which ones are written by people who hate Mr. Card, and which ones just think he is an awful human being.
That seems like a really odd way of describing what happened in this thread.

The original poster posted one article. I linked directly to an article that is by the same author (and linked in the original one). So its just one person we are talking about, not "which ones". And its not "article after article", just two of them.

[Confused]

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BlackBlade
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My wording didn't convey what I meant exactly. I said "a thread" I meant a hypothetical future version of this one. Frankly though I am not super comfortable with threads that link articles calling Mr. Card a homophobe or where the url lumps him in the awful people category. It would be irresponsible of me to give all links a pass.
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Rakeesh
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It's his house and you're the moderator. That said, as for your reasoning on its own grounds...well, Card says quite a lot worse about more people, more often, over the years. So as far as being squeamish about saying unkind things about him in the course of a current events discussion, well, on this cluster of topics Card did a cannonball into the swimming pool. He definitely wasn't pushed.
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The Black Pearl
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As long as you would moderate the Paula Deen thread the same way. I don't know anything about that person and I'm not comparing the two. And I don't love the thread either, but I think most of the links, short of wishing him harm, or perhaps lieing about him, should get a pass.
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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I'm really not comfortable with a thread where we link article after article and determine which ones are written by people who hate Mr. Card, and which ones just think he is an awful human being. I certainly wouldn't allow articles talking about why one of you is deserving of hatred on this board.

I'll leave the thread be for now, but I'd appreciate if this principle was adhered to in the future.

Ender's Game is coming out soon, there will be a flurry of articles discussing the film, the boycott, and I know y'all want to discuss them. But avoid articles trying to establish whether Mr. Card is a villain or anything else for that matter.

Unfortunately, Card is a celebrity, which means it is a different case than you or I. Card has willingly written plenty of articles where he has announced these views, so it is entirely natural to expect other articles to come up which argue against him.

We've allowed threads before that talk about the President and other high profile individuals, but because this particular thread is about the celebrity who owns this website, suddenly it's bad.

In my humble opinion, if OSC insists on publicly declaring his contraversial viewpoint on a topic like gay marriage, he should expect his fans to talk about it and to discuss the articles that counter that view.

Personally, I think OSC is an amazingly talented writer and a generally decent human being. I just think his views stem from his religious background, which frankly should never have been brought up in the first place, but that's on him. He has always seemed like a nice person, but he is also a celebrity and his words and opinions carry more weight and reach more minds than any of ours do. As a result of this, he has a responsibility to keep a check on what he says and what he doesn't. We also need people to counter those opinions, regardless of whether they may be right or not, because only hearing one side of the argument never gets you anywhere.

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Jeff C.
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As far as the articles goes, I don't agree with the list presented. This is a science fiction movie and I'm a science fiction fan. I have zero desire to watch any of those films, so why would I see them? I'm going to watch EG regardless of what anyone tells me, but even if I wasn't, I'd need something that was at least in the same genre to sway me.
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TomDavidson
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Yes, if you aren't interested in changing your consumer patterns out of a sense of social justice, that article will mean nothing to you.
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Elison R. Salazar
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I'm watching the movie because damnit I've been waiting years for it.
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The Black Pearl
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The part where she starts listing films is cringe worthy. I'll probably level with her and watch one of them anyway. Or I could just buy the Milk Blueray. IDK. Fruitvale Station looks good.
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Elison R. Salazar
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If I really wanted to avoid watching something for ethical reasons and instead watched something similar there would be some sort of anime instead. But "training geniuses to be generals" isn't really the premise for anything, training kids to be pilots is there, that's a genre in of itself, training kids/girls to fight Lovecraftian abominations is also its own genre; there's a couple of shows where kid geniuses are generals but they're a character archetype and not the central conflict of the work.

Ender's Game is a deconstruction (and like most great works of fiction is also a reconstruction and the trope creator) of that sort of trope and centers itself on exploring what would it mean to do that to kids. There really kinda isn't anything else to my mind that fills or visits that.

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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yes, if you aren't interested in changing your consumer patterns out of a sense of social justice, that article will mean nothing to you.

And if you are that type of person, you're way too savvy and morally superior to have missed the "OSC is an awful abhorrent hateful nasty bigot" train at this late date.

Which does sorta make me wonder why she bothered writing the article. Well, no, I guess not. Moral superiority gets old quick if you don't frequently and loudly remind everyone how superior you are, and how they could also be superior if only they followed you.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
And if you are that type of person, you're way too savvy and morally superior to have missed the "OSC is an awful abhorrent hateful nasty bigot" train at this late date.

Which does sorta make me wonder why she bothered writing the article.

I think you do her an injustice here, Dan. For one thing, she's not necessarily promoting a boycott: she's promoting alternatives. Her article is not "here's why you should avoid Orson Scott Card's work," but rather, "if you feel guilty about consuming Orson Scott Card's work, try consuming this work instead or in addition to it." Her list isn't "here are films you might prefer;" it's a list of films that function -- to her mind, at least; I don't happen to agree, but I respect her attempt -- like carbon credits.
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Jeff C.
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We are all so quick to point out other people's flaws that we never stop to look at our own. Everyone does it, but we should really be a little more mindful of it.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Which does sorta make me wonder why she bothered writing the article. Well, no, I guess not. Moral superiority gets old quick if you don't frequently and loudly remind everyone how superior you are, and how they could also be superior if only they followed you.
So I guess the trick is, don't disapprove of someone and then tell anyone about it, else risk tiresome moral superiority?
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The Black Pearl
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When the headline reads "An ethical guide", it's hard to tell if she isn't presuming that you already feel guilty. She feels like she's stepping up to podium. It's relatively tame, though.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
We are all so quick to point out other people's flaws that we never stop to look at our own.
Hm. Here you do me a disservice. I'm a born cynic, and spend at least as much time examining my own flaws as I do everyone else's. [Smile]
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It's his house and you're the moderator. That said, as for your reasoning on its own grounds...well, Card says quite a lot worse about more people, more often, over the years. So as far as being squeamish about saying unkind things about him in the course of a current events discussion, well, on this cluster of topics Card did a cannonball into the swimming pool. He definitely wasn't pushed.

This doesn't have anything to do with this topic or that topic being off limits in some generic place on the internet. As far as this place goes you can talk about just about anything other than Mr Card or another poster in a disparaging manner. If Mr. Card was writing about one of you in one of the essays it would be a completely different situation.
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PSI Teleport
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
We are all so quick to point out other people's flaws that we never stop to look at our own.
Hm. Here you do me a disservice. I'm a born cynic, and spend at least as much time examining my own flaws as I do everyone else's. [Smile]
Been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've basically come to the conclusion that tireless self-examination is just the flipside of pride, that is, thinking you can fix everything about yourself and make yourself perfect if you look hard enough and find/understand every single flaw.

Just saying this because I think there are a lot of very proud people on this forum who are also very self-aware and self-conscious. Including myself.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
If I really wanted to avoid watching something for ethical reasons and instead watched something similar there would be some sort of anime instead. But "training geniuses to be generals" isn't really the premise for anything, training kids to be pilots is there, that's a genre in of itself, training kids/girls to fight Lovecraftian abominations is also its own genre; there's a couple of shows where kid geniuses are generals but they're a character archetype and not the central conflict of the work.

Ender's Game is a deconstruction (and like most great works of fiction is also a reconstruction and the trope creator) of that sort of trope and centers itself on exploring what would it mean to do that to kids. There really kinda isn't anything else to my mind that fills or visits that.

One word: Evangelion. But I haven't seen the new version, just the old one. It's awesome. Way better than Ender's Game, to be honest with the amount of crazy awesome symbolism and general weirdness.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
If I really wanted to avoid watching something for ethical reasons and instead watched something similar there would be some sort of anime instead. But "training geniuses to be generals" isn't really the premise for anything, training kids to be pilots is there, that's a genre in of itself, training kids/girls to fight Lovecraftian abominations is also its own genre; there's a couple of shows where kid geniuses are generals but they're a character archetype and not the central conflict of the work.

Ender's Game is a deconstruction (and like most great works of fiction is also a reconstruction and the trope creator) of that sort of trope and centers itself on exploring what would it mean to do that to kids. There really kinda isn't anything else to my mind that fills or visits that.

One word: Evangelion. But I haven't seen the new version, just the old one. It's awesome. Way better than Ender's Game, to be honest with the amount of crazy awesome symbolism and general weirdness.
I love Evangelion but I would say it fits more into the kids as pilots trope he mentioned. They receive very little training and aren't selected for their leadership abilities. I think to find kids as generals in training you have to go back to tales of the Spartans.
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Have you been told to censor people talking about Card's abhorent views, Blackblade, or is this your own moderation?

Because it's really not the same thing, us launching personal attacks against each other, and us launching personal attacks against Card. For one thing, so long as I've been reading the forum at least, Card has never had the stones to actually come here and interact with the people who disagree with him.

For another, if a poster here said, for example, that blacks are subpar in almost every way to whites, but that's okay because they can still make a lot of money because they're better basketball players, I'd be perfectly content to have everyone here call them a racist and I'd be disgusted if we were censored from doing so

It's a little pathetic that Card can display the rampant bigotry that he does, and then the people on his boards (and these boards, let's face it, aren't really about Card or his books) should be silenced. You don't like the arguments being made? Counteract them, if you can, though I don't really think that's possible.

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Rakeesh
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I hardly think it's a question of not having the guts. Say what you will about Card, I don't think there's a case to be made for him being ignorant of the long-term prospects of his anti-SSM case and knowing he would lose a lot of popularity for it.
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Samprimary
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quote:
For another, if a poster here said, for example, that blacks are subpar in almost every way to whites, but that's okay because they can still make a lot of money because they're better basketball players, I'd be perfectly content to have everyone here call them a racist and I'd be disgusted if we were censored from doing so
Weirdly enough apparently according to the rules of the place (and established again and again with precedent) you can claim that this is a religious belief and absolutely nobody is allowed to disparage it.
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millernumber1
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I think BlackBlade is merely asking for politeness, and the considering of those you disagree with raman rather than varelse. If it is part of your morality to judge those who disagree with you as worthy of no politeness, then I guess that is your prerogative.

Card has, if I recall correctly, engaged with people who disagree with him here - not at length - but he's certainly not cowering in fear on the forums.

I hardly see any kind of silencing of dissent here - merely requests to be civil about the person who kindly pays for the boards.

In terms of counteracting civil arguments - there are several people who do so. You do not accept those counterarguments. That is completely fair. Given the differing presuppositions you hold, it's hardly likely that either you or those who disagree with you would be convinced. I do not think that precludes politeness on anyone's part.

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
For another, if a poster here said, for example, that blacks are subpar in almost every way to whites, but that's okay because they can still make a lot of money because they're better basketball players, I'd be perfectly content to have everyone here call them a racist and I'd be disgusted if we were censored from doing so
Weirdly enough apparently according to the rules of the place (and established again and again with precedent) you can claim that this is a religious belief and absolutely nobody is allowed to disparage it.
That is both hilarious and depressing all at the same time.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
For another, if a poster here said, for example, that blacks are subpar in almost every way to whites, but that's okay because they can still make a lot of money because they're better basketball players, I'd be perfectly content to have everyone here call them a racist and I'd be disgusted if we were censored from doing so
Weirdly enough apparently according to the rules of the place (and established again and again with precedent) you can claim that this is a religious belief and absolutely nobody is allowed to disparage it.
Not even close to being true.
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Samprimary
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When I asked a question point blank about it, I recall that your answer was straightforwardly that we are not allowed to disparage religious beliefs. Full stop. For instance, I can't call L. Ron Hubbard a "Con man" because his religion holds that he is not and thus to call him a con man disparages the religion and is not allowed.

Papa Janitor had established the exact same edict, and with absolutely unmistakable language; we can't commit "blasphemy" and we cannot disparage religious beliefs. Those are the official rules as has been described to us when the subject came to be at issue.

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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:

One word: Evangelion. But I haven't seen the new version, just the old one. It's awesome. Way better than Ender's Game, to be honest with the amount of crazy awesome symbolism and general weirdness.

You take that back.

Now don't get me wrong, both are legitimate works and deconstructions and I love me a good deconstruction, but Ender's Game also reconstructs, it makes the thing it pulled apart back together again to make it better, both metaphorically in the structure and also literally in the character of Ender (and even lampshaded by Graff); it is not that I feel NGE to be a lesser work, but more that I feel Ender's Game to be complete; and one should be careful about praising symbolism.

You see where that leads you, and I got two words for you.

Studio. Shaft. Nuff' said. (and I like Studio Shaft a lot and that should say something)

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Jeff C.
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I personally didn't find Evangelion very interesting. I guess I missed the point of it? I watched it with a friend of mine who loves the show, but I just couldn't get into it. I think it was the main character (the annoying kid) and the sheer lack of explainations. I also didn't really get the ending.

If anyone wants to explain it to me, I would honestly love to hear it.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
When I asked a question point blank about it, I recall that your answer was straightforwardly that we are not allowed to disparage religious beliefs. Full stop. For instance, I can't call L. Ron Hubbard a "Con man" because his religion holds that he is not and thus to call him a con man disparages the religion and is not allowed.

Papa Janitor had established the exact same edict, and with absolutely unmistakable language; we can't commit "blasphemy" and we cannot disparage religious beliefs. Those are the official rules as has been described to us when the subject came to be at issue.

In your example though you are talking about a person expressing racist views, and shielding them with religion.

I would be completely comfortable telling such a person (and have) that such beliefs are not protected here. Not to mention posters here are not all white, so having a poster tell another their race makes them subpar at anything is pretty straightforwardly against the TOS.

As for calling Hubbard/Smith conmen, I said this,

quote:
We have had many discussions about Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, etc. They have run the full gamut of what could be said about them. I don't have any special sympathies for criticisms about Mormonism. If you want to talk about how Polygamy caused familial problems fine. If you want to note that Joseph Smith believed he could fine treasure in the earth, and was hired to do so prior to finding the Book of Mormon, fine.

But you don't get to discuss those topics in such a manner that you are insulting and disparaging those who believe in those things.

You are more than welcome to note that you believe Hubbard is a con man if it comes up. You can't insult a person for disagreeing with you, nor can you attempt to try and persuade them to abandon their beliefs ala proselyting.
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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
I personally didn't find Evangelion very interesting. I guess I missed the point of it? I watched it with a friend of mine who loves the show, but I just couldn't get into it. I think it was the main character (the annoying kid) and the sheer lack of explainations. I also didn't really get the ending.

If anyone wants to explain it to me, I would honestly love to hear it.

I believe there's some remake's with a better animation budget and tighter plot/pacing out now that may fit the bill. "Rebuild of Evangelion" etc. The original series had the problem where they ran out of money for the last few episodes and thus the "symbolism".
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
As far as this place goes you can talk about just about anything other than Mr Card or another poster in a disparaging manner. If Mr. Card was writing about one of you in one of the essays it would be a completely different situation.

He does that ALL THE TIME. Which is why there's not a lot of sympathy when the request is not to call him what he plainly is. Playing by the rules he's established, after all.
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millernumber1
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I think there's a difference between "A group of people that you consider yourself a part of that OSC talks about" and "You by name."
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MattP
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quote:
Originally posted by millernumber1:
I think there's a difference between "A group of people that you consider yourself a part of that OSC talks about" and "You by name."

Similarly, it's OK to speak disparagingly about "scifi authors that are outspoken on SSM."
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by millernumber1:
I think there's a difference between "A group of people that you consider yourself a part of that OSC talks about" and "You by name."

Might be something of an academic difference if you're part of a group that loves many of his works (life changing isn't an uncommon remark) but then learns that they're destroying America, just playing house, destroying the fabric of human societies, something that will need to violently rebelled against, so on and so forth.

Card has loudly and often got nasty and personal on the subject. It's easy to consider those (numerous, and over a long period) attacks as just ordinary political disagreement when you aren't the one targeted. Tack onto all this that he's only made a vague head fake towards a less...aggressive...commentary now that the issue is finally beginning to be resolved, with him on the losing side.

Basically if he's not going to apologize for the many hateful and deceptive remarks he's made on this subject, he at least doesn't just get to wave his hands and demand people stop criticizing him for it at the instant he deems polite.

Well, here he does if he likes. But should he do so, he'll be rightly scorned.

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millernumber1
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Well, it's good to know that the tone won't change.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
something that will need to violently rebelled against,

Not saying you're wrong, just genuinely asking where has he said this? I'm sure I haven't read everything he has written on the subject and much of what I have read hasn't stuck but I don't recall him ever advocating violence against gays. If you have a link, I would greatly appreciate it.
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Obama
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Wasn't against gays, he just implied that if the government were to commit the heinous sin of sanctioning gay marriage, that it should be overthrown, violently if necessary. It's in one of his world watch columns, I think.
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