quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: You're antagonistic to other members as well as entire groups of people. And your "questions" typically coincide with you becoming unbearably boorish and condescending. I guess we all have well-established patterns.
You made a comment about Boris' general tendencies yet your question is specific to this thread. I'll still answer it anyway. You both engage each other in the same calloused manner. Knowing your past interactions that's not a surprise. Considering the stupidly obtuse thread title in this case, though, I don't fault Boris too much for his somewhat negative tone. The thread title (in this instance, but not exclusively) is not your fault but if you didn't fight snark and condescension with even worse snark and condescension you could uplift the quality of conversation instead of further degrading it. Who began what and when is relevant to you because you want to feel justified. A question for you: Do you think comments peppered with sarcasm, snark, and gross exaggeration advance or hinder discussion at Hatrack?
Why is the thread title relevant?
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
If it is relevant, wouldn't it be equally relevant that Samprimary's first post was a lengthy dispute of the title?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I tend to lean pretty conservative on a lot of issues (though certainly not all of them) so I probably would have found the thread title quite offensive at one time. Unfortunately, Republican actions and rhetoric over the last decade or so have been pretty shameful even for me so I take no offense to it now. I'd have to say it's pretty much spot on.
As for how any of that is relevant to Samp, I don't see it. I think he's been pretty composed in this thread, though that hasn't always been the case.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh look! An argument with Samprimary in which I am not involved!
Someone pass me some popcorn!
capxinfinity, I do have to say that Rakeesh has in past done pretty well in asking Samprimary to use kinder language when responding. Rakeesh has done this even if he agrees with Samprimary's point or thoughts on a subject.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for mentioning that, Geraine. Perhaps with your conservative credibility it will be able to be believed...though there was that post of yours mentioning an effort to be more skeptical and less partisan (in all directions, an admirable ideal), so who knows *how* much of a liar you are now!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
What? Pretty sure regardless of your answer "It ain't Fox News" is probably the sufficient zinger.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Reality has a left-wing bias. Regardless I think it'ld be more productive if you found inaccuracies in the article, are there?Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, this thread took a different turn than I thought it would after I stopped giving a crap and went back to worrying about work instead of wasting time on this forum...But let me explain some things.
1. My initial response to this thread was due to my absolute exasperation at the self-righteousness of the thread title and the arrogance in the few posts I felt like reading before I had to put in my two cents. I am thoroughly exasperated by the state of education in this country, mostly due to the fact that I was not brought up in public school past 6th grade. If state law had allowed I would have been able to get my GED at age 10 instead of age 16 like I did. I was one of those people the public education system absolutely failed.
2. Samprimary's response to my post, which was very short and curt, read to me as a cop out and further exasperated my frustration at the attitudes people take toward solving problems in this country. I hear countless calls from left-wing supporters saying we should be doing the things Europe is doing for everything from fiscal policy to education. But this attitude ignores that things could be significantly better if we were to take a completely fresh look at the problems facing us and attack them with the kind of curiosity and ingenuity that has brought humanity as far as it's come. I apologize for the sarcastic response, but I understood Samp's response as a curt dismissal of what I was saying and responded from a standing of supreme frustration (which is what I deal with every time I try to read stuff on this forum, which is why I don't spend much time posting here, though I do lurk from time to time). If he had taken some time to craft a more lengthy and expository response, that would have been helpful.
3. I have made a number of attempts to join in conversations on this thread, doing my best to be reasonable and explain my position as well as I can. I am not the best at communicating my ideas in great part because I don't like communicating very much. Every time I've done so I've been met with sarcasm, snark, and condescension. Each time that has happened it has increased my frustration and this has in turn resulted in me being more rude and curt and sarcastic. For that I apologize as well.
In all, the level of discourse on this board is staggeringly low. Almost every political thread I read here is left wing ideologues propping up other ideologues and trashing anyone who tries to bring up points supporting any other view.
So that's where I'm coming from here. And now I go back to doing what I actually enjoy. Fixing problems I have some amount of control over.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, Before I go back to working...I want to pose a question...Why do we need a public education system in the first place? I think you would be surprised at how capable humans are of learning things without being taught by someone else.
Or why aren't we looking at are kids when they tell us what they want to be when they grow up and asking, "What do you think you will need to know to do that?" Instead we shove them in a classroom for 12 years to learn stuff without telling them how those things can be applied to what they want to do. By the time people are done with school they have completely lost the desire to do the things that inspired them as children. Either because they can't perform up to the demands of a standardized education system or because they don't know how to get where they want to be.
And another question...how is the right wing destruction of the public education system worse than the left wing focus on mediocrity if the results of both approaches are the same? Both will result in some getting poor education, some getting great education, and the rest just floating along. I think you'd be surprised at how little the difference would actually be.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The philosophical goal of public education, historically, isn't to make kids become better pilots, or physicists, or administrative assistants, or waiters.
It's to raise better citizens.
Also, concerning right wing vs. left wing solutions... Why do you think people 150 years ago worked en mass to institute public education? As you know, no public education is the natural state of things.
Was it a scam that was unbelievably successful? Is the ideal out-of-date with contemporary times?
I know people with love to pull out their personal stories of the terrible schools that they grew up in. I'll merely add that I went to a middling public school system from K-8, a private school 9-12, and private university for my degree.
I didn't have a terrible time in school, I learned plenty, and the public school system didn't fail me.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I guess what I was implying is that for really smart people, public school being a nightmare or a non-issue is largely due to socialization skills.
I can't claim any certainty on that, but I feel that if one's social skills had been as advanced as one's academic skills, public schools, while tedious, wouldn't have been odious.
I say this as an introvert, though one who has had to learn to deal with a type A introvert father, and very strong extrovert mother.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Public Education raises the productivity of citizens, insures a literate populace and helps reduce crime and poverty.
If we look at German during I think the Franco-Prussian war which had public education for quite some time, 1/1000 recruits were illiterate; this was something close to 250/1000 for France, and 600/1000 for Russia. Prussia had a much more robust NCO cadre, more technically proficient specialists, and a more varied and larger economy than most of its rivals on the continent.
Might have been on the Eve of WWI, but I'ld have to reread.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
When you consider that the world is vastly different now than it was 150 years ago, how do we actually know that the existence of the public school system does the same things it did in the past?
quote: Public Education raises the productivity of citizens, insures a literate populace and helps reduce crime and poverty.
How do you know this? Are we comparing areas that currently have public education with areas that don't have public education? Because I can promise you that the existence of public education is not the only variable in the equation of poverty and crime.
Also consider the impact of what our educational system is costing us. Watch this particular presentation: How Schools Kill Creativity
Consider that prior to the implementation of Public Schooling, the vast majority of the populace lived a life where the ability to read and write was absolutely unnecessary to survive or even thrive. This is not so today. You may be able to survive without being literate today, but you most certainly will not thrive, and it is much more difficult to relate to your fellow humans today, with all the technology we use, without having at least basic reading comprehension skills.
The point I'm trying to make here is that we are woefully ignorant of how people learn and because of that most of our attempts to reform education will ultimately not be as effective as they could be. Viewing what people are doing that are successful without examining *why those things are successful* will not do much. We need to get to the root of the problem and start addressing that instead of paying attention to the window dressing and packaging.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: I guess what I was implying is that for really smart people, public school being a nightmare or a non-issue is largely due to socialization skills.
I can't claim any certainty on that, but I feel that if one's social skills had been as advanced as one's academic skills, public schools, while tedious, wouldn't have been odious.
I say this as an introvert, though one who has had to learn to deal with a type A introvert father, and very strong extrovert mother.
I think this is oversimplifying. There are a myriad of reasons for the public schooling system failing students in many situations. The fact that it fails anyone is a major indictment of it in my mind, to be honest.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Boris, are you saying that for public education to be worthwhile that it has to be 100% perfect? That's not a very reasonable point of view to have. If perfection is your standard for any worthwhile endeavor, you probably need to find a nice cave somewhere and wait for the inevitable. That's about the only 100% solution to anything.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote: If he had taken some time to craft a more lengthy and expository response, that would have been helpful.
If you had asked for a more lengthy and expository response, it would have been more helpful than moving immediately to hostile and degrading behavior.
Boris: do you legitimately in any sense think that there is any evidence that the country would have been better off without public schooling
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Boris: do you legitimately in any sense think that there is any evidence that the country would have been better off without public schooling
Dude, you have better reading comprehension than that. That's not even close to what he said.
Read it again. He specifically questions whether we still need the same schooling system as 150 years ago. He doesn't question whether or not that was the best option at the time, and in fact seems to accept that it was.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: I guess what I was implying is that for really smart people, public school being a nightmare or a non-issue is largely due to socialization skills.
I can't claim any certainty on that, but I feel that if one's social skills had been as advanced as one's academic skills, public schools, while tedious, wouldn't have been odious.
I say this as an introvert, though one who has had to learn to deal with a type A introvert father, and very strong extrovert mother.
I think this is oversimplifying. There are a myriad of reasons for the public schooling system failing students in many situations. The fact that it fails anyone is a major indictment of it in my mind, to be honest.
I've seen private schools fail people too. Even at the post-secondary level. So the objection seems to be a non-starter, to me.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Boris: do you legitimately in any sense think that there is any evidence that the country would have been better off without public schooling
Dude, you have better reading comprehension than that. That's not even close to what he said.
yes, you're absolutely correct. now, who's saying that this was what he said? if he had, what would be the point of asking him something i would already therefore know?
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: I guess what I was implying is that for really smart people, public school being a nightmare or a non-issue is largely due to socialization skills.
I can't claim any certainty on that, but I feel that if one's social skills had been as advanced as one's academic skills, public schools, while tedious, wouldn't have been odious.
I say this as an introvert, though one who has had to learn to deal with a type A introvert father, and very strong extrovert mother.
I think this is oversimplifying. There are a myriad of reasons for the public schooling system failing students in many situations. The fact that it fails anyone is a major indictment of it in my mind, to be honest.
I've seen private schools fail people too. Even at the post-secondary level. So the objection seems to be a non-starter, to me.
Do you think we shouldn't be striving for a system that fails no one?
quote: If you had asked for a more lengthy and expository response, it would have been more helpful than moving immediately to hostile and degrading behavior.
Yes, I realize that, and am sorry for having gone off the handle.
quote: Boris: do you legitimately in any sense think that there is any evidence that the country would have been better off without public schooling
Your wording here seems to suggest that you do, in fact, seem to think that I am saying the country never should have developed a public education system. I am not. There was a time when the public education system was exactly what the nation needed to build a better populace. It is no longer filling that purpose any longer. Larger and larger numbers of students are graduating without the knowledge and tools they need to succeed in a constantly changing world. Public incompetence (I use this word not as a general insult but to mean that a large portion of the working force is not competent enough to perform their jobs) is becoming a staggering drain on both public and private sector industry and efficiency. I believe that this is because we have an educational system that was designed for a world that no longer exists. It's time for us to make some major changes. Not small adjustments. We should seriously consider starting entirely from scratch.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are at least in the United States, a large number of people who would opt out of public education, they would not be nearly as productive as those who do not.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar: There are at least in the United States, a large number of people who would opt out of public education, they would not be nearly as productive as those who do not.
Again, how do you know this?
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think we should strive for a system that fails no one. I think people will find a way to fail in any system.
That said, I do think a public school system is directly beneficial for the vast majority of people who go through it, or is better than any alternative they have open to them.
I think tweaking/modifying the system is certainly within the realm of reason, of course. But I don't think it is whole-cloth worthless and deserving of complete destruction. I guess I'm a conservative in that regard.
For instance, I think schools are failing in some big respects too, but not the same ones as you think. I think we've been sacrificing the citizen part of the education to improve in math and science. We could do better there, and even if they graduate at a 6th grade reading level, they'll do better at their jobs because they'll be invested/empowered in their community to do so.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Public Education raises the productivity of citizens, insures a literate populace and helps reduce crime and poverty.
...in Victoria 2. Also known for its economic model which causes three massive revolts in every Great Power in the 1920s, not to mention a micromanaging central state being more efficient than its capitalists.
quote:Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar: There are at least in the United States, a large number of people who would opt out of public education, they would not be nearly as productive as those who do not.
Indeed, many people do. How do you know they are less productive?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
There were some papers I read a while back that showed the returns in GDP in terms of investment in public education. Additionally Paul Kennedy shows some data to support it as well to compare say, large illiterate masses of peasants in Russia in comparison to germany.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
