quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Yeah...wouldn't take it quite there, Dan.
Seriously considered finishing my post with a "yeah, I went there. " but decided it was basically implied.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: But, relationship-wise, yes. Behaving badly when someone doesn't feel the way you want them to is certainly "human" as you keep asserting, Aros. So is being annoyed when someone is behaving badly toward you - and rather more justified.
Right. Lots of bad behavior is "human" but that's kinda meaningless. If we can identify it as bad behavior there's no purpose served in pretending it's something else.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Aros: [qb] Why, in what you are positing for the majority, "middle 80%" of situations, is the woman a conniving bitch following a strategy and the man an innocent bystander not following a strategy?
I have also stated that I am employing a strategy of hyperbole.
Everyone else is arguing that the man is a conniving opportunist and that the women is an innocent bystander that his been deceived.
The reality is almost always somewhere in the middle. But I reiterate, "nice guy" is not a premeditated strategy for getting laid.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Again, it doesn't matter if what he wants is to get laid, to get married, to go out for coffee, or to maybe think about possibly calling each other "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" in the school cafeteria. If he gets mad because she doesn't give him what he wants, then he's behaving like an entitled jerk.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Aros everyone else is talking about the guy's behavior when the cards are finally on the table. Not his behavior leading up to that point.
If a friend says "hey I like you, wanna date?" And the response is "oh my god you have just been my friend so you can sleep with me?? Get out you despicable Nice Guy!" Then that's not good behavior. But that's not really what's being described.
You're sort of glossing over the part where the person gets a simple (or even gentle!) rejection and responds with anger/spite/vitriol or just general entitled bitching. That's what makes them a Nice Guy, the term being taken from reality-evading statements like: "stupid bitches only want jerks, not Nice Guys like me."
None of this is actually gender specific of course. I've known Nice Girls too, but there's more cultural support for Nice Guy behavior.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, I think the point is that people are not all people. Men are taught entitlement to women's bodies. This is a common thing that manifests in a particularly annoying strain in the "nice guy," which is criticized pointedly in the meme. What's annoying about the nice guy is that he believes women specifically, as a subset of "people," owe him things because he is a man. He also believes that he knows what men she should date (NO ASSHOLES) better than she does, because he believes men know better than women about everything. (LET ME LOVE YOU, YOU STUPID BITCH)
Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever wanted to give people swirlies more than reading this conversation. For heaven's sakes, a relationship without sex is a friendship for most people. So the only thing a "nice guy" doesn't get by having his feelings reciprocated is sex. It's about sex. It's about women's bodies. I can't. I can't even right now.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Aros: [qb] Why, in what you are positing for the majority, "middle 80%" of situations, is the woman a conniving bitch following a strategy and the man an innocent bystander not following a strategy?
I have also stated that I am employing a strategy of hyperbole.
Everyone else is arguing that the man is a conniving opportunist and that the women is an innocent bystander that his been deceived.
The reality is almost always somewhere in the middle. But I reiterate, "nice guy" is not a premeditated strategy for getting laid.
When you're arguing a behaviour isn't sexist and offensive, and that the people saying it is are looking to excuse women for being assholes, employing a strategy of hyberbole that makes you look sexist probably isn't a winning strategy.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Emreecheek: Actually, I think the point is that people are not all people. Men are taught entitlement to women's bodies. This is a common thing that manifests in a particularly annoying strain in the "nice guy," which is criticized pointedly in the meme. What's annoying about the nice guy is that he believes women specifically, as a subset of "people," owe him things because he is a man. He also believes that he knows what men she should date (NO ASSHOLES) better than she does, because he believes men know better than women about everything. (LET ME LOVE YOU, YOU STUPID BITCH)
What makes you think you've correctly identified the cause of this behavior? What are your arguments that the assertions you made here are correct? What is your criticism of the alternative explanations that exist, e.g. That this behavior is an example of people feeling entitled to unearned windfall in general?
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Emreecheek: Actually, I think the point is that people are not all people. Men are taught entitlement to women's bodies. This is a common thing that manifests in a particularly annoying strain in the "nice guy," which is criticized pointedly in the meme. What's annoying about the nice guy is that he believes women specifically, as a subset of "people," owe him things because he is a man. He also believes that he knows what men she should date (NO ASSHOLES) better than she does, because he believes men know better than women about everything. (LET ME LOVE YOU, YOU STUPID BITCH)
Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever wanted to give people swirlies more than reading this conversation. For heaven's sakes, a relationship without sex is a friendship for most people. So the only thing a "nice guy" doesn't get by having his feelings reciprocated is sex. It's about sex. It's about women's bodies. I can't. I can't even right now.
I honestly believe that this discussion isn't about the topic in general. People are arguing about their experiences rather than the subject. Therefore, rationality probably went out the window some time ago.
Bad behavior is bad, whether it's a poor reaction to a situation or stereotyping others.
There is nobody on this board upset because *you* won't date them. There ARE, on the other hand, a whole lot of people stereotyping.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Me, I'm just trying to get on board with the notion that a guy (or a girl, really) befriending someone while keeping a distinct romantic interest in them to themselves both initially and over time is this unusual behavior. That's not been my experience, for either gender.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure if you're saying that in your experience it happens frequently, or not very often?
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Me: Most guys don't have ulterior motives. They're just nice and a little socially awkward. Please forgive them if they don't always have the most tact.
The Other Opinion: Whatever. Guys are only nice because they want sex. And if a guy gets slightly upset because I won't date him, it's only because his only motive at all is sex.
Me: Sex and love are quite different as motives. Love can actually be a pretty noble emotion. I'm not just talking about the Greek notion of eros. What about philia?
Others: Nope. Love just means you want to hump me. Guys only want friendship because it means we are obligated to hump them. It's pretty much about humping.
Me: That's not very enlightened.
Other: Well, the guy isn't entitled to get upset when he asks me out. Or he never had pure motivation to begin with. Just humping.
Me: But what about--
Other: Nope, not listening, just humping. Nah nah nah nah nah. Mad, angry humping.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Me, I'm just trying to get on board with the notion that a guy (or a girl, really) befriending someone while keeping a distinct romantic interest in them to themselves both initially and over time is this unusual behavior. That's not been my experience, for either gender.
It seems to me that woman often categorize men as either a friend or relationship material. It's called "the friend zone" for a reason. Once you're classified thus, it's hard to change.
For guys, the possibility of a relationship is always on the table. Period.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Goodness, could you repeat that drivel again in a more mocking way while lecturing *others* on not listening?
Show ofhands, was one single person talking about organically evolved romantic attraction in the midst of an authentic friendship? And would you like to reassert your 'this is just hyperbole, not a ploy to say what I really think or anything' veil again?
As for your categories, no, it's not always on the table. But if you'd like to make sweeping generalizations some more, maybe stop lecturing these 'up in the night' feminists for doing so. ----- Dog, I meant to say it is not uncommon in my experience for that to happen.
Can you name these people? I'm curious who precisely you thought was saying this.
I can, but I won't. One person on the first page, two on the second. Any more analysis isn't worth my time.
That was disrespectful. I've changed the text tag. But we're awful close to turning this into a discussion on post-modernist feminism. And I'm done with that topic. I am firmly aware that this board feels it demeaning to open doors for women.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Goodness, could you repeat that drivel again in a more mocking way while lecturing *others* on not listening?
Show ofhands, was one single person talking about organically evolved romantic attraction in the midst of an authentic friendship? And would you like to reassert your 'this is just hyperbole, not a ploy to say what I really think or anything' veil again?
----- Dog, I meant to say it is not uncommon in my experience for that to happen.
Oh, I said what I think. But I was arguing from a devil's advocate-esque perspective.
There are crap-heads out there. But there are a whole lot of good guys that are being heaped into the doggy-pile. And a lot of girls are liable to make themselves feel better by classifying actual nice guys as "nice guys".
Tell yourself whatever you like, if it makes you feel better. Memes -- and stereotypes -- are dangerous.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rakeesh: Oh, then yeah. That's my experience as well. I've had several relationships start that way, and think it's a pretty common thing. I don't really know if the "friendzone" really exists. My friend Hannah says she won't consider dating a guy she hasn't been friends with for at least half a year. It's a trust issue, for her. Other women I know don't like dating friends (for different reasons, mostly having to do with bad experiences with "nice guys") and prefer a romantic undertone from the get go. I think it's perfectly valid to want to be friends with a woman before dating her, and of course you have to become friends with the woman you're dating for any hopes of a long term relationship. I generally think the "friendzone" is what guys say when they mean "I don't want to admit this woman, or in fact, a LOT of women just aren't attracted to me sexually so I'm going to blame it on her being a dumb woman instead."
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Can you name these people? I'm curious who precisely you thought was saying this.
I can, but I won't. One person on the first page, two on the second. Any more analysis isn't worth my time.
That was disrespectful. I've changed the text tag. But we're awful close to turning this into a discussion on post-modernist feminism. And I'm done with that topic. I am firmly aware that this board feels it demeaning to open doors for women.
Yeah, that's not at all an accurate summary of that discussion. If you don't already know that (because hey, don't get too upset anyway, this is a strategy of hyperbole..wherein I say what I mean), then you have forgotten and should revisit it.
Here's a meme for you: expressing concern with some aspects of, say, opening doors for women and underlying culture equates to 'it's demeaning'. Another meme: lumping rivals entirely together as feminists and mocking them as a whole. I admit it's no guarantee, but it is a nice indicator right there.
Perhaps the most revealing meme: using stereotypes and untrue summaries while castigating opponents for employing stereotypes.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
[quote]There are crap-heads out there. But there are a whole lot of good guys that are being heaped into the doggy-pile. And a lot of girls are liable to make themselves feel better by classifying actual nice guys as "nice guys".[/quote
Eh, ElJay nailed this one already. Feel free to refer to her response once more.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm surprised that you don't think I'll resort to everyone else's tactics, Rakeesh. Why should I elevate the discussion? There'd be no . . . fun . . . in that. Too classy, not my bag.
I don't classify myself as a troll specifically; but I do find it humorous to utilize my opponents' tactics against them when they're stereotyping and trading in generalities. It's not my goal to win "arguments".
And how do you suppose I should reference the "opening doors" thread? I deleted the dang thing, upturned the table so to speak. Don't you remember?
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
So . . . are you arguing against my treatise? - I propose that most "nice guys" are actually nice guys. Albeit most of them in this category are somewhat socially inept. - I further submit that most females using the "nice guy" meme do so to villainize men that they don't want to have a relationship with. - A man's poor behavior when rejected is inexcusable. - A woman's stereotyping in order to alleviate guilt is also wrong, and the perpetuation of the meme acts as a justification for said women.
And if I've offended anyone making my point, I am, actually, sorry. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one arguing for all the well intentioned (and sometimes naive) good guys out there. Sometimes I think these discussions get too esoteric and omit a lot of the relevant facts. An intellectual model is far too prone to misinterpretation. Reality is a million shades of gray.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Aros: - A woman's stereotyping in order to alleviate guilt is also wrong, and the perpetuation of the meme acts as a justification for said women.
Guilt for what? What has the woman done to create this guilt for which she needs justification?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
So, I hold doors for people. Men, women, children, you name it, because of the way I was raised, I open doors for them. It's a small courtesy, a way of saying "hey, I respect the fact you exist and I'm going to delay myself a second or two so you can catch the door." I do this a lot at my gym, specifically, because the doors are unreasonably large and heavy, and people are usually coming up the steps holding a gym bag, so I hold the door. And almost always the response is a grateful "thanks man, I appreciate it!"
A few months ago, I held the door for a woman who looked at me, glared, said "I can open doors for myself", and went and used the far door. I replied, rather exasperated, "I have no doubt that you can."
Was her rudeness justified? No, not really. Was it understandable? Probably. Maybe for her, because of the way she grew up or a bad relationship, a man holding a door was a symbol of sexism and she felt the need to say something. Was I in any way hurt or damaged by it? No, not at all.
Should we not have discussions about the somewhat troubling implications of chivalrous behavior because these sorts of discussions might lead to stereotypes, and those stereotypes may cause some woman somewhere to say a rude thing to a man?
Likewise, imagine a guy. Great guy. Sweet guy. All around, squeaky clean boy scout, never sassed his mum, would never think of lying or disrespecting a woman guy. He's good friends with a girl, and she tells him it's going to be her birthday soon. It's her first year away from her family (she recently moved to Hawaii), and she doesn't really have anyone to celebrate with. So, he goes and makes a bunch of cupcakes for her, puts candles in them, and surprises her. She acts very happy and grateful, and after talking for a few minutes and telling her happy birthday once more, he leaves.
She stops talking to him and starts avoiding him. A few weeks later, he find out from a mutual friend that she thinks he was just being nice because he has a crush, and has been avoiding him because she doesn't want to date him but also doesn't want to hurt his feelings. Guy is nonplussed, as he meant nothing romantic by the gesture. After talking to her some more, turns out girl had some problems with a "Nice Guy" stalker back home.
Was her reaction justified? Probably not. Was it understandable? Definitely. Was the guy in question hurt or damaged? maybe a little.
Should we avoid discussing the very real problems of predatory "nice guys", and of men feeling entitled to a woman's sexuality, because these sorts of discussions can lead to stereotypes forming, and at some point in the future a woman might hurt a man's feelings with said stereotypes?
Or maybe these stereotypes - and the occasional, unfortunate mistaken "Nice Guy" issue - exist as a reflection a deep and ugly problem with the way our culture portrays healthy romantic interaction between men and women, and because there really are predators out there, as well as otherwise decent guys who are horribly mislead or mistaken about how to attract a mate.
You're so terrified of the side effect that you want to pretend the disease doesn't exist rather than treat it.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Aros: - A woman's stereotyping in order to alleviate guilt is also wrong, and the perpetuation of the meme acts as a justification for said women.
Guilt for what? What has the woman done to create this guilt for which she needs justification?
For using her womanly wiles? For her sexual preening forcing a man to fall in love against his will? For not sharing her Female Erotic Capital with a non-Alpha?
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: You're saying "most" nice guys are genuinely nice. And "most" women who use the term "nice guys" are cruelly misrepresenting the guys.
So it's (mostly) the women's fault, then. When you get down to the brass tacks of your argument.
No. I don't agree.
A man getting upset is the man's fault. If a woman misreads his intention, that's her fault. If a man thinks she owes him anything, that's his. If she is falsely attributing this intention, it's hers.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:The Other Opinion: Whatever. Guys are only nice because they want sex. And if a guy gets slightly upset because I won't date him, it's only because his only motive at all is sex.
Nobody said that guys are only nice because they want sex. Nobody said that getting upset is always an indication of a singular motive.
It should probably be called "Pretending Nice Guy" or something, because you're right: most nice guys aren't the frustrated, bitter, and manipulative "Nice Guy" that pretty much everyone agrees should try something else instead. But I think that's been made clear from the first page of this thread, as well...
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Aros: - A woman's stereotyping in order to alleviate guilt is also wrong, and the perpetuation of the meme acts as a justification for said women.
Guilt for what? What has the woman done to create this guilt for which she needs justification?
For using her womanly wiles? For her sexual preening forcing a man to fall in love against his will? For not sharing her Female Erotic Capital with a non-Alpha?
Hahaha.
I wasn't saying that she SHOULD feel guilt. Merely that she might. I know if a girl was a friend and fell in love with me, I would worry that I might have sent mixed signals at some point.
I was inferring instead to the fact that it's easier to deploy the "nice guy" stereotype, write the guy off as a predator, and move on. Rather than treat him like a human being who's been her friend and is a little hurt / upset.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have you seen this happen a lot? I mean, seen a woman deploy the nice guy stereotype? I have a couple times, and usually it was an honest mistake a conversation was able to fix. I can't remember ever seeing it used maliciously.
FWIW, I couldn't be douchy or aggressive if I tried, so I know the pain of being mistaken for a "Nice Guy." I've also met some truly sociopathic people who pull the "Nice Guy" routine, as well as some friends who are pretty decent, but mistakenly think it's ok to try and guilt/pressure a girl into a relationship by being a really good friend, and then complain to me frequently about how they always get friendzoned.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do have to say it's strange not having that distinct... flavor Clive always added to these conversations.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Should we avoid discussing the very real problems of predatory "nice guys", and of men feeling entitled to a woman's sexuality, because these sorts of discussions can lead to stereotypes forming, and at some point in the future a woman might hurt a man's feelings with said stereotypes?
Or maybe these stereotypes - and the occasional, unfortunate mistaken "Nice Guy" issue - exist as a reflection a deep and ugly problem with the way our culture portrays healthy romantic interaction between men and women, and because there really are predators out there, as well as otherwise decent guys who are horribly mislead or mistaken about how to attract a mate.
I loved this response. And I agree that I am a man and have some bias. Maybe that's why I see the numbers differently? But I would suppose: - The number of predatory "nice guys" is vastly lower than the number of actual nice guys. - That the "unfortunate mistaken 'Nice Guy' issue" happens FAR more with real nice guys than with the predators. - And I would in fact argue that most predators would use a different approach. - And that it is doing good men an injustice to promulgate this stereotype.
Yes, I agree that our society and media share much of the blame. But the problem is that they promote these sorts of stereotypes, they try to tell us what LOVE IS and IS NOT. I think a lot of the negative behavior is championed by the media and that memes create a negative effect. We're being told that romance SHOULD be a certain way, and it is clouding our judgement.
How many movies champion falling in love with a friend and pursuing her, even if she isn't interested?
How many memes simplify complex human behaviors in a bite size chunk so that we don't have to think for ourselves? We're still responsible for our judgements, even if they're incorrect.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Have you seen this happen a lot? I mean, seen a woman deploy the nice guy stereotype? I have a couple times, and usually it was an honest mistake a conversation was able to fix. I can't remember ever seeing it used maliciously.
I haven't seen it deployed at all. I wasn't even familiar what a "nice guy" was before this conversation, so I assume I'm at a handicap. It just seemed to me, based on the thread, that it could be (or is being) readily deployed to dismiss good people. It seemed like people didn't care to even have honest discussions. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think there are a lot of messed up people with a lot of messed up problems. Everyone tries to look like a decent human being. But it isn't indicative of "nice guys". It's indicative of people. Some people just . . . suck.
I've also seen abusers.
I'm thinking that this meme exists because women posit a man's frustration, when opposed by a lack of interest, is a sign of future behavioral issues.
They think: "Wow. He was a good friend. But he got upset when I wouldn't date him. Either he was manipulating me by pretending to be a friend, or it was a sign that he really is a sucky person."
Some people DO suck. But a single incident is rarely indicative of a pattern of behavior. And it's easy to get scared. And it's crappy that some people turn out to be jerks.
I would just advise not to judge people by a certain incident. When a good man feels like he has a connection, it can be difficult to find that it isn't reciprocated. Maybe you can't continue to be friends. Maybe you can. But I don't think that manipulation / coercion / predatory behavior is a logical conclusion without more substantial evidence to back it up.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I forget how old you are, but I'm pretty sure that you're in your early 30s? I think the main problem with your understanding of this thread is you don't really grasp the terms being used, or how they're being used. For instance, nobody at all is condemning being nice to a girl, especially a girl you're interested in.
"Nice Guy" refers to a certain movement that's sprung up on the internet over the past 5-10 years. I think the first example I saw was this, and since it popped up there has been a fairly sizable culture that has appeared around it. One of the phrases supposedly endemic to said culture (though this may be a "Beam Me Up Scotty" type deal) is "...and I'm a really Nice Guy!" thus the term "Nice Guy" was applied to a follower of that particular misogynistic philosophy.
It in no way refers to guys who are, in fact, actually nice and pleasant people. Not even guys like that who are socially awkward. It more refers to basement dwelling neckbeards who have very little to offer romantically other than friendship, so they use their "niceness" as a weapon, and as security blanket.
But back to the age thing. These sorts of guys are already fading away from my circle of friends, and I just turned 25. I think by the time you hit your 30s, it doesn't really exist anymore, as said "Nice Guys" have either matured emotionally, or retreated into their parents basement forever and settled for the company of a blowup dolls and internet porn. Which is probably why you're not familiar with the culture in question.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe I just have a hard time believing this is a "culture". It seems more likely to be pejorative used to describe a very narrow set of guys, a stereotype that is being used to categorize a much larger set of men in general. I may certainly be wrong. I just feel bad for men that might be mislabeled because they're socially inept or believe in silly love movies like Can't Buy Me Love.
If there really is a "nice guy" culture, at least as far as a strategy for getting laid, you'd think there would be a book about it. It'd be pretty idiotic. They'd have a lot more luck with the stupid PUA garbage.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Aros, I don't think it's a thought-out strategy. I think it's more like stumbling about in the dark, as opposed than printing out a MapQuest layout in advance.
Generally tending towards downhill in the dark seems to be a regular trend. It's the path of least resistance, I expect.
--- Edited to add:
These are more likely to be a series of reactions to events unfolding, not predetermined actions, in my opinion. Of course, the individual is still responsible for them. Of course.
--- Edited again to add:
Remember, you yourself characterized these gentlemen as having poor social skills. They aren't going to be savvy about what does and doesn't work in social situations. A savvy-less approach is going to be more likely in such cases, not less.
posted
Dogbreath (sorry, don't know your name behind your alt), I wanted to commend you for some truly wonderful posts in this conversation.
Aros, as a girl who has been friends with nice guys and "Nice Guys," there is a difference and there's also a sliding scale to the point where I don't think that most guys are aware of their problematic behavior because it hasn't gone to that scary point yet.
I've been friends with guys who I suspected were romantically interested in me. Sometimes they'd ask me out early in our acquaintance and I'd tell them I wasn't interested in them romantically. A few would stop hanging out with me and I'd be sad because I'd been looking for a friend, but it was a choice I could sympathize with. A couple would say they were okay with being friends but there was an underlying concern that maybe they weren't being honest with me or themselves. I can think of atleast to young men in my college years who decided to remain my friend but would often overwhelm me with behavior that seemed to blur the line between platonic friendship and flirting.
These situations aren't enjoyable or comfortable, but I wouldn't call these guys "Nice Guys." I would however point out that, even subconsciously, alot of that behavior seemed to come from a place of thinking, "Well, if I just keep being nice to her, maybe she'll change her mind and want to date me." Its not directly harmful behavior but it does show up on that sliding scale for me. Some guys get really aggressive to the point of, "I'll show her how amazing I am until she HAS to change her mind."
It goes back to the "men who think they know better than women" behavior that is really problematic.
My experience with "Nice Guys" mostly involved stories of male friends who would aggressively (or even passive aggressively) insult my boyfriend at the time or insinuate that he wasn't good enough. Other times, it was friends coming to me because a guy I had considered a friend was complaining that I had led them on. Its an odd idea for someone like myself who is largely unromantic and barely even hugs my closest friends, much less engage in flirting behavior on accident. I've had guys respond to rejection by immediately going to classmates and calling me a "b*tch." And I've seen it play out with girl friend and their male friends, over and over again. I see it all the time on facebook status updates, even by male coworkers that I'd otherwise hold a high opinion of. Its the constant whining about how girls always pick losers but never THEM. Its the comments about how they think they'd win more girls if they were jerks, while handwaving and say they could never think/say horrible things about women, even though apparently they think most women are too stupid to make their own choices about romantic partners.
Those are the "Nice Guys" that we are talking about.
And you're right, its not been the majority of my acquaintances but the scariest "Nice Guy" I ever met, had me terrified for weeks. And women hear stories all the time about domestic violence and how a woman's chances of being killed by a romantic partner go WAY up after a breakup/separation. So maybe the scary "Nice Guy" is a rare occurence, but we also know it only takes one. And at the moment I currently have a friend who being stalked by an ex-fiance who keeps breaking into her house, but the police claim there isn't enough evidence to take action.
This is the world we live in. And yeah, I don't see anything wrong with using the "Nice Guy Meme" as a way to A) remind women that they don't owe men anything in exchange for friendship and B) educate men on even the subtle, unconscious ways that they project entitlement to a woman's body/life.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
And it is believed that these men are statistically significant? In much higher numbers that's it's fair to believe they're common? Or is there just a disproportionate amount of hate directed at them because they're D bags?
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
I think the main cause is mostly related to media, specifically books, TV Shows, and Movies that project wish fulfillment, beautiful girl falls in love with her nerdy friend scenarios. That, and lingering notions that men can own a woman's sexuality, or that women owe sexual favors to men who do nice things for them.
I think the main reason it's become so prevalent recently is that, for the first time, platonic friendship and social interaction between members of the opposite sex is quite widespread - even the norm. The notion of "hanging with the boys/going shopping with my girlfriends" has really disintegrated in the past 20 years. I'm sure this problem existed before, as well, but was more isolated.
I think the main solution is, well, education and discussions like these. Just like you didn't know it really exists, most "Nice Guys" aren't really consciously misogynistic. (I hope) They do what anyone who hasn't had their beliefs questioned do - accept them at face value, because they didn't know there was any other way to think.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
*blink* So, Aros, you've been scolding people for discussing problems with a subculture that you didn't even know existed, because you assumed they were actually talking about something other than a particular subculture? Is that accurate?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dkw: *blink* So, Aros, you've been scolding people for discussing problems with a subculture that you didn't even know existed, because you assumed they were actually talking about something other than a particular subculture? Is that accurate?
I don't feel like that's the case. My argument was that perpetuating a meme is dangerous because it can cause people unfamiliar with ALL the background to resort to a stereotype. With regard to "nice guys", I felt that the stereotype could be harmful to nice guys.
And obviously I was a good object lesson. If I was a 19 year old girl and believed the meme, it COULD have caused me to treat good guys poorly.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It certainly seems possible. This is also the same guy that made a scolding reference to a past discussion he himself made sure no one else could check to validate his 'strategy of hyperbole'-not to be confused within the simultaneous strategy of 'saying what I think', mind you.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
I can't bear to read much of this dreary pseudoscience. It seems fairly similar to PUA theory. I had assumed that, since there are no books available, Nice Guy isn't actually a theory / strategy.
Does Red Pill = PUA? Or Nice Guy?
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't claim to have much experience in the field of relationships, but I have been following this thread, peeking in every once in a while. Nor do I really have that much to add, but upon reading the link that Dogbreath posted as a prime example of this whole phenomenon, I just had to share this excerpt from that link
Basically, this is where this type of men go horribly wrong in their thinking:
quote: You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy.
The direct equation of emotional intimacy with physical intimacy seems to be... I can't even find the words to describe it... miles off base.
posted
After last night's discussion, and experience with several different social circles, my current hypothesis is this---
Women - Most women classify males as either friend / romantic interest. - If romantic interest, pursue accordingly. - If unavailable as romantic interest or if classified as friend, pursue friendship. - Continue in friend mode. Do not think about the possibility of romance unless previously considered. - Be wary of any money spent, excessive attention given, or any favors offered. Consider the implications. - If male tries to change the nature of the relationship, consider if previous treatment was being used as a strategy to gain trust. - If previous romantic interest, pursue relationship. If not previous romantic interest, proceed to freak out. - If not previous romantic interest, proceed to freak out. - Freak out: Consider the implications of all prior interactions. If anything implied manipulation or unnatural attempts to gain trust, discontinue friendship. Rumors, namecalling, and hateful speech are optional. - If friendship seems genuine, proceed awkwardly with friendship.
Men - Friends are cool, but I'm pretty much interested in all my female friends. Unless they're too fat, dumb, or ugly. - If a friend is interested in me or wants to spend money on me? Freaking sweet! Bonus! - If I'm unavailable, I PROBABLY won't try anything with female friends, though I might flirt. The person I'm dating now is most likely the one I'd pick to be with in the long-term. - If I become available, all AVAILABLE female friends are fair game, in order of desirability. If there have been significant shifts in weight / looks / job / my own interest, pecking order might be reassessed. - Friends might also be assessed by possible perks, hair color, a cute dimple, or whatever else is on our mind at the time. Sometimes we want something different from our ex. Sometimes we want something the same. Sometimes something poignant someone says can become intriguing and stay on our minds. - If highest value female friend is unavailable, feel free to pursue her in whatever manner you feel comfortable. This includes demeaning her boyfriend, trying to impress her, and making an extra effort to show interest in her. - Even if I'm unavailable AND the highest value friend is unavailable, I will still change situations should the opportunity come. This includes any types of behavior discussed previously and may include dumping my girlfriend / spouse, berating her partner, or trying to be impressive. - Only engage in another committed relationship when necessary to maintain high value female. Until then, it's go time!
My guess is that men have an advantage -- they really don't have to fear female friends or potential mates. I can understand how it might be scary for females. A lot of dudes, a lot of people for that matter, are broken.
From a biological perspective, there's a definite advantage to males seeing all females as future mates and women limiting it to only a single male. Plus this behavior is mirrored in most social animals. I guess I tend to forget the implications that it has on humans.
posted
When following the above, an actual nice guy operates with the feelings of others and a code of ethics in mind. The Nice Guy, player, PUA, and a lot of other idiots don't.
But I maintain -- the real difference between men and women is that men consider EVERYONE a potential mate. Even inanimate objects, in some cases.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, but a propensity that seems to hold solid for a majority. Nothing is immutable.
I, for one, strongly believe that monogamy is a natural state ordained by God. But while dating, biological impulses certainly had their influence.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
" but decided it was basically implied. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
