Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Archives » Landmark Threads » #8 3000th Landmark Post/Religious studies

   
Author Topic: #8 3000th Landmark Post/Religious studies
Dan_raven
Member
Member # 3383

 - posted      Profile for Dan_raven   Email Dan_raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So its a landmark day and a land mark post.

I could retell everyone here the story of my life, but that would be old news and not very interesting.

I was thinking of reciting my wierd and unconventional religious views. That would take even longer. I can go over part of them.

I come from a mixed family. My father is Jewish. My mother is Lutheran. Neither wanted to push their beliefs on me. This is mostly due to neither being firm believers themselves. This allowed me to search for as much of the Truth as I could both find and handle.

When I find it I'll be sure to let everyone know.

I studied Biblical history, Islamic history, Hinduism and even dabbled in some of the stranger ideas (Wicca, etc). I realized that what I was looking for was a belief that met just one criteria--and that few did. It had to be universaly fair.

I could go on for pages explaining how I came to this conclusion, and some of the other conclusions I came to, but I will skip that for the debate that will follow.

The 10 commandments held the key to what I believe, but not as they have come to us in their present form. Instead, how I imagine they may have read before the bias's of the translators, copyists, temple officials, and the wear and tear of the ages have edited them.

1. There is no other God but God. I have many names, and others worship me differently, but remember, I am everywhere. I am all gods for I am God. I am infinite and the mind of man cannot truly comprehend the infinite, so if others comprehend me differently, do not say they are wrong. They worship me. That is right.

2. Worship no Idols in my place. No statue or graven image is God. No book, tome or bible is God. No person, nation, or political group is God. Worshiping any of these instead of God is wrong.

3. Do not vainly use the name of God. Do not call upon God to curse others, or to aid you in war or in the harming of other creatures God has created. Do not blame God for the acts of men and women. Do not pray to me for minor things, for the winning of a sports event or the winning of a lottery or the need to refill your beer stein one more tim.

4. Do no work on the seventh day of the week. Or atleast take 1 day in seven to relax, enjoy the creation that is reality. Enjoy life, enjoy the world. Take 1 day in seven to remember God and think about all that we have. God does not need our praise every day, or proof of our piety hourly. However we need to talk with God dailly or weekly. If we need to prove our piety, then perhaps we are trying to prove it to ourselves. That means it is actually missing.

5. Honor your parents. Honor those who teach you. Honor history. Honor those who have come before and those who have sacrificed so you can have all that you have. The best way to honor those who have supported you, taught you, aided you, is to become the best you possible. The best way to thwart those who have belittled you, held you back, held you down, is to become the best you possible.

6. Do not kill anyone in your society. If they leave your society, kill only outof necessity. How you define your society will determine who you can kill. The more that are in your society, the closer you are to God. In Tribal times a society was everyone in your tribe accept those who broke the laws. In our times, most agree that it is anyone within your country, accept for those who broke the laws or threaten too do so imminetly. To others, their society includes all people of their religion, or all people in the world regardless of what laws they have broken. To some, society includes animals that others consider food. This is a call that each must make on their own.

7. Do not commit adultery. Do not break the heart of anyone.

8. Do not steal. Do not steal items, ideas, or talent. Do not steal people or assets or anything. Do not use force or words or the weaknesses of those you face to take what you have not earned. What you steal becomes less valuable because of that theft, for who shall make or buy another if it is taken from them.

9. Do not lie. The truth is precious and vital and easilly hidden by what we want to believe. Treasure truth and spread it when you can.

10. Do not covet. Do not compare yourself to another. They are not you. They do not travel the road that you travel, so do not compare the things or awards or fame that others garner. You do not know how much those cost the other person. Worry instead about your own things, your own life, your own fame. Let your life stand by itself, not in the shadow of others. That is how you have to live it.

Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Vána
Member
Member # 3262

 - posted      Profile for Vána   Email Vána         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow.

Thank you, Dan_raven.

Posts: 2661 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BannaOj
Member
Member # 3206

 - posted      Profile for BannaOj   Email BannaOj         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like them. They express pretty close what I believe too. You just said it much better.

AJ

Posts: 11264 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Icarus
Member
Member # 3162

 - posted      Profile for Icarus   Email Icarus         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Very nice.

[Smile]

You should put 'em on a plaque or something.

[Smile]

Congratulations, as well.

[Big Grin] [Big Grin]

3,000 posts in a year [Eek!] Be careful not to burn out . . . I very much enjoy your posts. You are a big part of what makes Hatrack a special place. Pace yourself so we can keep you around for a nice, long time!

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

Posts: 13668 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BebeChouette
Member
Member # 4991

 - posted      Profile for BebeChouette   Email BebeChouette         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dan, I like it. Number 3, especially, gave me a new view of an old commandment.

Bebe

Posts: 334 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
T_Smith
Member
Member # 3734

 - posted      Profile for T_Smith   Email T_Smith         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They have a page in Readers Digest for people like you... [Wink]

Those were great, Dan. Good job on the 3000.

Posts: 9750 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dragon
Member
Member # 3670

 - posted      Profile for Dragon   Email Dragon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<-- seconds Icarus' post
Posts: 3420 | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kayla
Member
Member # 2403

 - posted      Profile for Kayla           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow, Dan. I like those. I wish everyone would live by that code.

Most impressive. [Smile]

Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
*
Member
Member # 4842

 - posted      Profile for *           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Very nice [Smile]

Happy 3,000!

-Myr

Posts: 353 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jettboy
Member
Member # 534

 - posted      Profile for Jettboy   Email Jettboy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe number one and number nine is against each other. Mostly number one is as near to saying there is no such thing as Truth as you can get without denying the existance of God, while the ninth say that Truth is a priority for everything.
Posts: 2460 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xnera
Member
Member # 187

 - posted      Profile for xnera   Email xnera         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you, Dan. I've believed in your definition of #1 for several years now. And #10.. well, you took the words right out of my mouth. Seriously, I wrote a journal entry about that particular topic just a few weeks ago. I'm glad that there's someone out there who thinks alike.

--xnera

Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Mostly number one is as near to saying there is no such thing as Truth as you can get without denying the existance of God, while the ninth say that Truth is a priority for everything.
Truth with a capital T seems to mean quite a different thing from normal truth, since if I deny the existence of god I am saying "it is true that there is no god." In any case, I would be inclined to define 'lying' in terms of normal truth rather than Truth.

I like your modified commandments, Dan.

Posts: 4346 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kayla
Member
Member # 2403

 - posted      Profile for Kayla           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jettboy, I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you, but I disagree. [Wink]

Dan, would you mind if I copied this and posted it in my house? I'd give you full credit of course.

Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
enjeeo
Member
Member # 2336

 - posted      Profile for enjeeo   Email enjeeo         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nice post. Happy 3000th!

So, how do you tell the difference between 1 and 2?? According to 1, wouldn't idol worshippers actually be worshipping God?

Posts: 2451 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_raven
Member
Member # 3383

 - posted      Profile for Dan_raven   Email Dan_raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First, anyone who wants to copy this, feel free.

Second, the difference between #1 and #2. (oops, potty jokes starting already). #1 says don't bother people who worship differently than you. #2 tries to show you what not to worship. If John Doe worships a Harley, but calls that Harley God, then I shouldn't slap him down for that. On the other hand, I should know that while God may be in the Harley, he's not limited to being just in the Harley. Basically, its what I believe, but that doesn't mean I have the right to tell others they have to believe the same way.

Third, Truth and God are both bigger than me. The fact that I could never fully understand God or the full Truth should not limit me from spreading what truth I do understand. Lies are usually purposeful steps away from the truth (by definition). They should be avoided. Lies spoken just to hurt, or for self-promotions over innocent others should always be avoided. Then again, truth's spoken to hurt others or for self-promotion over innocent others should be avoided as well.

Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jettboy
Member
Member # 534

 - posted      Profile for Jettboy   Email Jettboy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Honestly, I am not sure how to put into words why I feel the way I do, but I find your ten commandments (especial the first two) to be offensive. Partly it is because it goes against many things I hold as TRUE that you don't. I guess its that I believe in a very specific kind of God and that any deviations from that is not true worship. By your definiton someone could be worshiping Satan and still be worshiping God.

This isn't to say that there is nothing I agree with. Much of what you have said actually seems close to my own interpretations. However, I just find your 1 and 2 to be completely against the meaning of both God and what the original two of the ten mean.

Posts: 2460 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bob_Scopatz
Member
Member # 1227

 - posted      Profile for Bob_Scopatz   Email Bob_Scopatz         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
JettBoy, that seems to be a rather unfair criticism. If you take the existing 10 Commandments and put them down on a piece of paper without the rest of the context you have the same problems. Who is this God that God is talking about being?

Dan, the only problem I had was with the one on adultery. I think maybe it was implied, but I think it should read "don't break the heart of anyone on purpose."

It is impossible for someone not to be heartbroken in this world.

And, we could debate all day the ways that adultery can be a byproduct of plain poor treatment by the person who gets left. Maybe their nastiness should be a form of "adultery" in that they ignored their spouse and that person's heart was broken...

Hmm...

EDITED to say that I'm really impressed with your ideas & post, though.

[ April 25, 2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]

Posts: 22399 | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BebeChouette
Member
Member # 4991

 - posted      Profile for BebeChouette   Email BebeChouette         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jettboy, can you explain what offends you about #2?
Posts: 334 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jettboy
Member
Member # 534

 - posted      Profile for Jettboy   Email Jettboy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Number two only offends me as far as its meaning created by number one. The implication, as right as its stand alone meaning is concerned, is that there is nothing that speaks FOR God. I don't believe that as I believe there are Scriptures and even an Organization that speaks For God where no others do.

When number one and number two are taken together, as you have tried to do when answering the question of how they don't contradict each other, you are making a theological statement I disagree with. I believe that God's power is everywhere and in everything, but I don't believe that everywhere and everything is God. I certainly don't believe that different manifestation of faith and belief are part of the same God worship. I don't believe in a Universalist God even if I believe in a God of the Universe. And I believe that very particular organizations, writings and etc. manifest that real and proper faith and belief where others are deficiant if not outright false.

Posts: 2460 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_raven
Member
Member # 3383

 - posted      Profile for Dan_raven   Email Dan_raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jettboy this thread was, like many landmark threads, an opening of of me, so that you can understand who this Dan_raven person is. It was not meant as an attempt to convert anyone to my point of view.

If it was, I would never try to convert you. My beliefs go much further than those 10 lines above. One thing that I hold dear is the power and sanctity of faith. You have that faith. If I try to take it from you, that would be cruel and evil.

I will not argue with you about your beliefs because it would do neither of us any good. When a person has faith they do not need logic or theory or statistical proofs. They have found a path to Truth and God and anyone who tries to take that from them is just wrong.

I've seen people who called their laziness Faith, or their ignorance, or their stubborness. I am not referring to them. I am refering to people who believe with their heart, not what is easy or what is popular, but what they feel to be true.

Congradulations Jettboy because it sounds like you have found that faith. I have not yet.

The above might be considered more of guidelines to live by while searching. Will it change if I find some deep truth? Same way, tao, church or holy text that enlightens me? I will let you know when it happens.

Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey Jett, it's possible to disagree with someone without being offended by their views. I just did it with you.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jettboy
Member
Member # 534

 - posted      Profile for Jettboy   Email Jettboy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I didn't mean to "butt in" to your feel good moment. Just wanted to show that not everyone agrees with your view of the Commandments. As for the word "offensive" I don't know what other word to use for my extreme annoyance at the implications. Is there a non-personal word for agitation?

[ April 26, 2003, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Jettboy ]

Posts: 2460 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like your thoughtfulness, Dan. Thanks for sharing.

Shan

Posts: 5606 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
enjeeo
Member
Member # 2336

 - posted      Profile for enjeeo   Email enjeeo         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jettboy
You could just say it rubs you the wrong way, or that you feel unsettled by it.
quote:
Congratulations Jettboy because it sounds like you have found that faith. I have not yet.
I sometimes wonder if the inability to find faith actually correlates with the belief that no one thing can be the truth - whether by trying to include the beliefs of everyone as a form of the truth, people actually negate the truth in their own minds because truth is by nature limited and they can't believe that it is so. In reality truth can only be juxtaposed to lies, not assimilated.

I'm surprised by how relative religious truth is deemed by people nowadays. Does this happen with other kinds of truth? How does anyone find truth (any kind of truth) when they aren't seeking it, because they don't really believe it's out there. (Suddenly I feel like I'm quoting X-files. [Big Grin] )

Musings.

Posts: 2451 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jettboy
Member
Member # 534

 - posted      Profile for Jettboy   Email Jettboy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I posted this somewhere else, but thought this would be just as good here:

I think you are forgetting that many religions hold exclusivity within the very center of its Theology. This includes the Jewish religion (at least according to its Scriptures). For many of these religions the idea that they are not THE religion goes against the very reason the founders say they exist. For example, Abraham, Mahammad, and Jesus Christ all claim that God made a covenant of sorts only with or through them. Therefore, to question their supremacy as God's only religion is tentamount to questioning the very thing you are expressing -- that they all are true. Therefore, to say they are all true is the same as to say they are all wrong or false.

Admittedly I am not sure if this holds true for any non-Levant religions. I know that Buddism and Hinduism don't get along and could be for the same reasons.

Posts: 2460 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_raven
Member
Member # 3383

 - posted      Profile for Dan_raven   Email Dan_raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some thoughts that Jettboy made me consider.

I know that not everyone agrees with my views.
I know that some religions state that they are the only truth. Does my ideas attack and negate them? Yes. But then any ideas other than there own would attack and negate them. Since there is more than one group that have those views, the only way to not attack or negate another is to hide your views, cover them up, avoid them.

That is an attack on your views, what ever they are. Guess you can't please everyone.

The idea behind #2 is not that there are no sacred items in the world. It is that there are not items more sacred than God. Certainly there is more wisdom, more sacredness, more of God to be found in the bible than to be found in a Hustler Magazine, or an Archies comic, or even a text book on English Literature of the 19th century.

However, God commands you not to kill another. You shouldn't then follow a person, a book, an idol and kill because you believe you are obeying this thing, or this person. Money is an Idol when it no longer is valued as a means of living, and becomes an all important end in of itself. People do much that is wrong in pursuit of it.
I am getting side tracked, sorry.

Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jettboy
Member
Member # 534

 - posted      Profile for Jettboy   Email Jettboy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
However, God commands you not to kill another. You shouldn't then follow a person, a book, an idol and kill because you believe you are obeying this thing, or this person.
The logical problem with the above is that (aside from personal experience and revelation) it is a person, a book, and an idol that informs you what God commands. The only logical thing that I feel you can do is to denounce God's existance or proclaim a new revelation about God that supercedes or completely abandons the old expressions of God's nature.
Posts: 2460 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
blacwolve
Member
Member # 2972

 - posted      Profile for blacwolve   Email blacwolve         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know that it means anything, but I understand perfectly what Jettboy's saying.

I really like #5. It's probably going to end up somewhere so I won't forget it. Thank yu so much, most of these expressed exactly what I feel so much more eloquently then I could ever have done.

Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2