But this world has two quite large problems: One, they're running out of resources fast. It takes materials to build these things, and those materials are pretty much almost gone. Two, a radical group called (insert radical group here) is making hell on the robotics manufacturers, as they think that this system is placing far too much power in the robots' hands, and fear a hostile takeover, despite the three laws of robotics.

So then, let's say I have another world that exists more or less parallel to this one. Same shape, same size, same place, just grew up differently. Planetary fraternal twins, let's call them, that live on slightly different planes. This world has not been producing technology by themselves; they rely heavily on magic. Their system is simplified as thus: One corporation simply called the Company is host to three near-omniscient energy forms that monitor the world. If they detect any illegal use of magic, whether it's an unpermitted spell, or a permitted spell that commits a crime, they alert the Company, and it sends its Headhunters out to detain the criminal and clean up the mess he might have made. The Company is very good at what they do.

This world is rather primeval; its largest kingdom is ruled by a shapeshifting, backstabbing Queen named Nyth, and the Company's top Headhunter is an elf named Jerin who can either see exceptionally well and not hear at all, or hear exceptionally well and not see at all, but there's never any grey area. There are faeries and dwarves and most of the creatures of lore -- even demons, which is where one of this world's problems lies. Normally, the demons stick to their own business, playing their games of status and kicking back, just having fun, but once in a blue moon, there's a black sheep that just has to ruin it for them all. This black sheep's name is Raelk, and he's a dangerous mix of demon and man. The demon blood in him dictates to go kill things; the human in him says wait, stop, think about what you're doing. Regardless, he's making trouble for the Company, and they're going nuts just trying to find him.

Both worlds affect each other on an almost constant basis, though the denizens of each have no idea that the other exists. For example, Michael, a software programmer, has a strange knack for controlling the autonomous -- he can look at a light switch and it will fall, but he'll soon forget about it and pay it no real mind. At the same time, bits and pieces of his world's technology is showing up in Raelk's world, and getting twisted by magic -- a machine that is infested with nature's grace turns into something else entirely.

So here's my question: How do I get the two worlds to know each other? I have a plan, once they do; I want the people of the technological world to see the magic of the other world in effect and realize that it could solve their resources problem, then try to cultivate it as they did every other resource -- try to figure out what, exactly, magic is. I even have plans for that part of it, though it involves quite a bit of researching, but in the end, I'm going to have them start a group (lovingly named the Asimov Project) that is devoted to crafting robots who can cast limited magic -- just enough to make their tasks autonomous but effective. For example, a robot that can grow a forest over a period of a few years, or a satellite that can monitor the world's climate and make little changes here when needed. At the same time, the technological world could help the Company track and take down Raelk.

But how to make one and the other realize they exist?

II) Magical spell to travel across

III) Something else

Maybe that's what happens out in the Bermuda Triangle and Zone of Silence (not sure if I have that name right).

Or perhaps the planets aren't anywhere near each other but an offset of power caused be Raelk on the magical planet and the technological overload on the other planet is causing space to spontaneously fold bringing the two planets together.

I'm partial to the "teleportation experiment gone awry" model, this would work for either world to discover the other. Ancient artifact (StoneHenge, Geza, Olmec cities, various others) portal being activated is another. Terrible accident is a little bit of a stretch, but doable.

i.e. Something Michael invented is transported through to Raelk's world. Raelk tampers with it and ka-boom! As the portal opens and the worlds collide, Michael recognises his invention as the trigger - as you might if the portal turns up in your living room etc.

Very techical description, I know.

One thing though, you've described how the discovery of magic effects the technological world - how does the technological world effect the magical one? How do they react to their world being "harvested" by the technological one?

Just a few thoughts

So on the one hand, the magical world might see an automaton as a vastly unnatural thing, some kind of insult to their magical way of life. On the other, however, they might be vastly curious about it, and start tinkering around with the mixture of magic and machine.

As for how they'd take the harvesting, that depends on how I decide magic works. As I see it, I have two options, there; either it's a technique, just another skill that manipulates things freely, or it's an actual resource that replenishes itself just fast enough to keep up with their world, but not fast enough to be ravaged by the technological world. So yeah, if it's the latter, I'm thinking they wouldn't like that. heh.

I'm leaning toward Michael creating a teleportation device that ends up sending itself barreling through time-space instead of its target. Raelk finds it, tinkers, havoc, etc.

Have you read any Piers Anthony? Specifically, the Apprentice Adept Series:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/series/-/59/paperback/ref=pd_serl_books/102-7556610-5581753

I'm not saying you are writing the same story - your stories are different! But Anthony also had parallel worlds - magic and tech, and solved problems of how they find each other and interact, and a protagonist who others had issues with... and if you haven't read it may I suggest reading the first three? It would also expose you to what's been done with similar issues.

puna: I loved A Spell for Chameleon, The Source of Magic, and Castle Roogna. I also read his book about the VR game that trapped someone (though I can't remember what it's called), and I haven't yet read the Apprentice Adept series. His Xanth books have me hooked enough as it is, and although the Mundania v. Xanth issue is similar to mine, I'd like to take it to a completely different level.

I suppose it would help if I paid more attention to who is doing the posting

Lose the 3 laws of robotics. They added a dimension to Asimov's books, but they aren't realistic if you look at reality.

People don't always buy computers off the shelf, and there are a large number of people who custom build their comps. I think people would be able to custom build their own robots, and not have to include those laws. Also, the robot companies wouldn't want to program those laws (which are easy to say, but if you think about it, they would be very complex to program) onto all of their robots (why would they need the laws on a car-building robot?).

It also gives you more freedom to have fun with the technology.

Also, you need a way to make an almost fully autonomous society work. I say have a 2 class system: the employed, and unemployed. The employed get to live in more luxurious homes, they get better food, and for every hour of work they put in, they get 10 minutes in a resort-type place (one or two in every city I suppose), so that they could either spend 80 minutes there after an 8 hour work day, or save up to go every weekend for 6 hours, and 20 min., or save up even further, etc.

The unemployed still get the same ammount of food, though not as high in quality, and they can only live in lower quality housing, and don't get any accsess to the spa/resort place.

The employed get the newest updates (in hardware and software) quicker than the unemployed. The only form of currency is work hours.

Now don't forget about all the jobs that robots might never do, because of the very nature of those jobs. Those include art (biggest would be movies and music), psychological jobs, teaching (this one should be in threat of robotization, with the exception of art, and philosophy techers, etc.), and theoretical sciences (astrophysics, etc.).

It would be interesting to see or hear about a philanthropist who owns a few robot-free factories, to help give people jobs (should you choose to go this route).

Also, the programmer's union (sure to be formed in this world) wouldn't allow programmers to program programming bots, kicking anyone who tries this out of the union.

I personally think you should keep the magic world human. It adds credibility to the story, and doesn't seem as hokey (to me at least). Jerin could simply be a human who can hear very well, is totally blind, and can sense magic himself w/o any assistance by whatever the rest of the Company uses...

I say the only non-human race you should keep is the Deamon race. But they should only be a sort of illuminati kind of people, with their hands in everything (maybe even controlling Nyth). They could also be the ones hiding the link between the two worlds. They would hire Jarin to discover why their world is being affected by the other world (they wouldn't tell him about the other world), and he would find out etc.

If you do decide to change it to that, Raelk would be hunted for a different reason: he's the only half-breed, and because of this, he's hunted. He would have all the strengths of both species, but also all the weaknesses.

I think that Michael shouldn't forget he can do those things, he should just hide it from others.

The technology should show up in the magic world because the deamons bring it in (though they hide that they're doing it), and the change that they hire Jarin to investigate should be pollution, etc. that the deamons don't know how to control when they bring in technology.

The three laws was, admittedly, just kind of thrown out there because it made sense at the time, and now that I think about it, in this context it really doesn't.

That type of society is the best idea there, I think. I wonder if, though, the programmer's union would fail to someone setting up a reward system for the programmers -- extra hours for establishing benchmarks in the projects, for example, and pension to those who contribute to their success to compensate being replaced by the machines.

I like the idea of the demons' role; it's not too far from what it already is, although I'm iffy on giving them that much influence over the world. I might tweak it a bit.

I'm not so sure about keeping everything human; you're right, it'd add credibility, but on the other hand, it's a lot of fun writing about different types of creatures, so long as it doesn't get out of hand. I suppose that's one of those things that I'll have to write the both sides of, and see which ones work.

Thanks for the input.

As for the level of other races in the magic world- whatever you decide to do, do it realistically. Dwarves are closer to what we call dwarves (almost reg. sized torso and reg. sized head with small limbs, a la the one on Seinfeld, as opposed to a midget, a la mini-me).

quote:

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Now don't forget about all the jobs that robots might never do, because of the very nature of those jobs. Those include art (biggest would be movies and music), psychological jobs, teaching (this one should be in threat of robotization, with the exception of art, and philosophy techers, etc.), and theoretical sciences (astrophysics, etc.).

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I don't know if this necessarily needs to be the case. Consider Data on Star Trek TNG. Yes he was an android, but it sounds like andriods will be a part of this society. It could be used as a point of conflict in the story.

quote:

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But this world has two quite large problems: One, they're running out of resources fast. It takes materials to build these things, and those materials are pretty much almost gone. Two, a radical group called (insert radical group here) is making hell on the robotics manufacturers, as they think that this system is placing far too much power in the robots' hands, and fear a hostile takeover, despite the three laws of robotics.

---

I also don't like the idea of sticking to the "three laws". First of all, I'm not entirely familliar with them so why would I care about them. Second, one of the first places you might expect to see robots/androids take over is the military. Why send your troops to die when you can manufature robots who don't have families who care? If robots won't kill senients they'd make pretty useless soldiers.

For instance, there would be all the military/police type robots, with fundamentally different programming and build from other types of robots. Then you might have personal assistent types, and industrial/manufacturing types, and medical types (those ones would have something like a cross between the first law and the Hippocratic Oath going), and so one. There would even be a couple of secret, illegal/covert types used specifically to keep the system running smoothly.

***

A man with no name walked into a crowd of people wearing the same suits as he. They entered a nondescript building with chipped paint on the arch above the entryway and two cameras, one on each side. The cameras did not track so much as control: They knew the names of the people, even if the people themselves did not.

They wore the same suits and, for now, were the same gender, had the same IQ. They liked and disliked the same things. The only difference between one man and the next was his destination from this building.

The building was called Gateway. The man with no name joined his comrades on moving sidewalks within the building. As the cameras watched, they calculated, and the sidewalks moved each man to the proper platform and then stopped. Some platforms had many men and some had few, but no platform was empty. A set of cars on a railway awaited them, and when the sidewalks stopped, the doors opened, and the crowd stepped inside. When the cameras were sure that the Gateway was empty, the cars dropped, the rails split, and each car went its separate way.

NOTE FROM KATHLEEN:

Sorry, 13 lines of text only.

***

[This message has been edited by J. Alfred Prufrock (edited July 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by J. Alfred Prufrock (edited July 28, 2004).]

Also, it all sounds so very restrictive. From what you described before, it sounded like the tech world wanted everything to be automated so they could be free to pursue anything they wanted? I understand using time as a currency but this sounds like a very undesirable society to live in.imo.

I was a little confused about who exactly is in control in this world. In the first section, the cameras are described as being in control, as if they are part of an autonomous AI program or something.
But in the later sections we find out that the cameras are operated by people, so then the first section's tone didn't seem quite right.

Also, if the people have codes, then they really don't have "no name". As in THX-1138, if each person is identified by a code, that is their name\title. Then they would be identifiable by their code numbers.

Small concern with the barcode. It bothers me because if the person is wearing a scarf, it won't work. So maybe they need some sort of transponder or tracking device implanted.

Because it deviates from schedule, the camera operator knows when people are doing something leisurely, but how can they know what their intention is? Maybe they could "clock in" and "clock out" to do the leisurely thing. Then if they are not properly "clocked" and a camera operator sees them, they could get into really big trouble. And if they are in big trouble, they are punished.

As I was reading it, I wanted to see what punishment the crosswalk man got. I wanted to understand what it involved so I could understand why they are so hesitant to mess-up.

I can see where a community living under these restrictions would be pretty crime-free. Except of course for all of the misdemeanors.
Also, humans living in this sort of place would probably develop some black market ways of getting rid of tension, boredom and aggression. That would be an interesting angle.

I'm glad that the crowd in the beginning gave you the impression of robots; that's exactly what I was going for. I didn't write it here, but I will eventually, that the people undergo a complete change when they're off duty. When they have time to themselves, they have names, friends, jokes, and fun; when they're working, they're all the exact same person.

You know, I haven't seen a Gateway cow commercial in ages.

News: I'm actually still debating on who's in control. At the moment, it's people loosely behind the machines, but eventually, I'll want the people to have programmed the machines to be able to do what the man in the booth did themselves; i.e. being able to distinguish between leisure and work, and being able to tell when someone's breaking the rules.

I'm still not sure how the machine is able to tell what the man's intention was when he was going to the store, but I'll work that out. In fact, any ideas would be helpful. I definitely want the machines to be able to tell.

I hadn't thought about that black market angle ... that would be interesting. Hmm.

[ edit: I forgot to mention -- the "man with no name" is indeed a man ]

Perhaps instead of scanning barcodes, the cameras scan for a specific radio frequency from electronic tags. Cybernetic impants or enhancements could even be used to i.d. people, kind of like dental records.

What if the people behind the cameras put the barcodes on the back of the neck, then left them there, and simply highly discouraged people from covering them up? It would eventually come to pass that covering them up would be seen as highly suspicious, as the only reason the cameras scan the codes is to either ship you off to your work, or to mark a crime down on your record and identify you to put out an arrest, as per the man who did not cross between the lines.

That thought lead to the thought of crime itself. I was wondering how I would illustrate crime's very low effect on the society, and I thought of this:

A man walks into a store to rob it in a very stereotypical manner, except he does not have a weapon. He has his code covered up and simply yells at the cashier in a threatening manner, eventually thrusting a bag out for the money. The cashier doesn't resist, and the people in the store don't even seem to notice his actions. The man, after he gets the money, dashes out. The following line is what stands out in my head:

"What criminals these days didn't seem to notice was the extent to which the cameras were watching them. The man could not be coded, but nor could he leave his neck covered at all times, and at all times would he be watched. When he walked the streets, the cameras were fixed on him, when he arrived at his home, the cameras were fixed at him, and, eventually, when he stripped to shower, the cameras were fixed on him. He was apprehended before he was fully dry."

What do you think?

[ edit to Kathleen: Doh! Sorry, I completely forgot. Thanks for correcting it. ]

The back of the neck would be a particularly obtuse place to put the barcode if you wanted to be able to read it using fixed cameras, unless you're going to make both long hair and high collars a crime (leaving aside the question of whether such ought to be the case, please).

If you want to put a barcode somewhere, it should be such that a person could easily submit that body part to be scanned by a device or person to the front. For instance, you approach a security gate and show the back of your hand, or your face, or whatever. But barcodes are a bit passe and silly, it would be remarkably easy to simply fake a barcode, after all.

What if they had been connected at one time in the past. Something causes the connection to be severed but certain base things will be common between the two worlds.

Instead of reading barcodes, perhaps the cameras read auras or chis or something. Everybody has a slightly different aura or chi. They aren't locators but they identify people like a fingerprint.

In the magical world, perhaps there is a certain amount of industrialisation (I've probably just butchered the spelling of that ). Some mechanisations that are either operated by magic. Or a set of animation magics.

Just some random ramblings