posted
Ok, for those of you that have read this your replies are most welcome, but, for those of you that haven't seen this little bit, feel free to comment.
So, here goes.
Kyros went down to both knees in the moist leaf-covered ground where a stag lie dying.
An arrow protruded from its body behind the foreleg. Kyros grinned meekly at the precision of his shot placement. Shallow and labored breathing confirmed that death was imminent.
“Not to worry my friend, it will be over soon,” he said grabbing the antler nearest the ground and placing the other hand on the muzzle. He took a deep breath and prepared himself for what he was about to do. Closing his eyes and using all the strength at his disposal, Kyros pulled on the muzzle. The stag struggled feebly until its neck snapped, ending its pain.
Kyros sat back on his feet and sighed deeply, and rested as he pulled out his knife and began to recite a prayer that his father taught him when he was a young boy.
“My most humble apologizes Artemis. This magnificent beast is a necessary sacrifice. The taking of its life means the lengthening of my family’s. I return the life of this beast back to the earth, from whence it came.” He then slit the throat of the stag and let the precious life-giving blood run into the ground.
A black vulture landed on a branch about Kyros and screeched its arrival. The scavenger’s eerie cry echoed throughout the forest and brought the hunter back to his senses.
Sorry guys I put 'antler' where I should've put 'muzzle'. Thanks for pointing it out to me. It shows that he uses the antler as a pivot point.
-Bryan-
[This message has been edited by Monolith (edited January 18, 2005).]
posted
Uh, why did he break its neck like that? Particularly since he's about to slit its throat.
Also, you could paint the scene in a little more detail, and also some more precision with regards to relative placements (watch "where" and "about"). Maybe back up a bit to where Kyros tracks this deer down, so he can enter the scene and look around.
The little ritual didn't quite sound right, I particularly lurched at "magnificent beast" and "life-giving blood" for some reason. There were some grammatical oddities too, but I didn't worry about them much. Also, when you say that the vulture's cry brought Kyros "back to his senses", that kinda implies that he was in some kinda trance or something. Which would also generate a POV issue in describing the bird landing on the branch.
posted
I was curious about the neck snapping as well. I'd check a bowhunting site of FAQ to see how they finish off a deer that isn't dead.
I had the impression, from the comment of the arrow placement, that he had gotten it in the heart, if that was the case it would have been dead already, if that was not the intent of the "arrow placement" comment, then what was?
I'd also use native american references for the ritual he performs or maybe druidic depending on how you want it flavored. The ritual is flat in the current implementation.
posted
I saw an opportunity to get rid of the first “he said” by rearranging the sentences. This is probably a style thing, so take or leave the advice as you see fit. A quick cut and paste would read as follows:
Kyros went down to both knees in the moist leaf-covered ground where a stag lie dying. Shallow and labored breathing confirmed that death was imminent. An arrow protruded from its body behind the foreleg.
Kyros grinned meekly at the precision of his shot placement. “Not to worry my friend, it will be over soon.”
The breaking of the neck made sense to me. He's ending the animal's pain, and demonstrating an ability to empathize. I agree on eliminating coming "back to his senses." I think he's had his senses about him the entire time.
As for the ritual, I'd say elaborate only if the detail is essential to your story. Short and concise works well for me. I see what Survivor means when he lurched at "magnificent beast" and "precious life-giving blood." The adjectives seem excessive, now that I look again. I get the sense that this is a familiar ritual to Kyros, so those adjectives are there to impress the reader, not as a natural thought pattern. Just be careful of falling into clichés.
Same adjective thing with "the scavenger's eerie cry." The bird's already screeched in the previous sentence, and we know he's a black vulture, a scavenger. Do I really need to know that his cry is also eerie?
posted
I have hunted quite a bit and if a deer is still breathing it is quite able to seriously injure you. In particular they will play dead untill you touch them then kick and thrash even seconds from death! I had one that had passed out and we thought it was dead revive in the back of a SUV and fight for another 10 minutes and it had taken an arrow right behind the front leg and another in the neck.
For me it seemed a big risk to try and break a stag's neck when he could have slit it.
posted
JB, didn't you drain the blood? I'm hoping that you hadn't already gutted the poor undead beastie
Anyway, yeah. Breaking the neck is for, like, ducks and stuff. I was also slightly disturbed by the fact that the manner in which Kyros broke the stag's neck seemed to involve pressing its muzzle into the ground. But for all of that, I'm still curious as to why he does it.
This type of hunter is going to be more concerned with the meat of the kill and salvaging it's hide intact, as such he would be far less concerned with damaging the head, like a modern hunter (concerned about the trophy) would be.
posted
I assumed that in order to perform the blood-letting ritual, that the stag had to already be dead, but I agree with what the others are saying, breaking the neck does not seem to be the most effective way to do this. A second arrow at close range or slitting the neck, would be the better choices, imo.
Also, my understanding is that bowhunting is quite humane. The animal probably wouldn't be in pain, especially if there was a clean shot.
The vulture bit threw me a bit, but probably because I am used to envisioning a turkey vulture. The habitat that I associate with vultures (hot, arid desert) is very different from the habitat I associate with deer (cool, lush forest). A raven or magpie, though perhaps less impressive in presence, seems closer to the type of carrion bird that might be in the same forest as a deer. Just some thoughts.
posted
Ok, we need a volunteer to be shot by an arrow, close to the heart. Then they can tell us how much pain they are in and whether we have been humane. Any volunteers? Any one?
I wouldn't want to eat this deer after. Talk about fear-soaked meat.
posted
Bow hunting done well can be a quick effective way of hunting, but even skilled hunters may have to hunt an arrow shot deer for a couple of days. The average arrow shot deer runs about 100 to 300 yards before lying down to die. In reality rifle hunting is the most humane way to kill a deer, death is near instantaneous (unless the hunter can't shoot.)
Posts: 451 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Well I for one am not about to suggest that Kyros should be using a high-powered rifle in this scene.
For purposes of draining blood quickly, it is best if you slit the throat while the heart is still beating strongly and allow the animal to bleed out. This isn't usually too practical, so you just open the carotid arteries and jugular veins when the opportunity first presents itself. You can't leave it too long after death or the blood will congeal, which is disgusting.
Killing with primitive weapons is almost never really humane unless you use poison (and there are poisons and poisons, when it comes to questions of a humane kill). But opening the carotid arteries will decrease the blood flow to the brain well below that necessary for consiousness, especially if the jugulars are opened as well. This is best done with a knife, though. Hitting targets very precisely with an arrow can be done on a range with a bit of practice--unmoving targets at fixed distances. When hunting a skittish animal prone to bounding away, you're doing well to get an arrow in it at all. There is also the issue of power vs. aim. Before the developement of compound bows used by modern hunters, the draw weight of a bow was a direct measure of the force you needed to exert (with one hand) while aiming. 50 lb. is about what I would call the minimun for hunting deer, 75 lb. would probably be more reasonable powerwise, but it becomes very difficult to aim properly. And going for a head shot using a primitive bow is really out of the question. To penetrate the skull you need to hit it directly, even if you max out with a 150 lb. composite recurve warbow (not entirely primitive, either). Which means that the target area you need to hit is quite a bit smaller than the brain itself, which already isn't that large a target compared to the heart.
The main reason that bow hunting can be thought of as more humane is because the entire population isn't put under the same kind of stress during the bowhunting season. Animals that don't actually get shot won't really notice much happening. But for the animals that get shot, it isn't any less unpleasant.
posted
First vultures and deer often live in the same climate. Second, having read this story some time ago and realizing that this scene has been driving you nuts for I have a couple of ideas- why don't you try starting the scene with him having just slit the deer's throat- how the blood feels on his fingers. That would eliminate most of the need for you to discribe deer hunting and the dead animal would show his prowess as a hunter just as well as a dying one would. My other suggestion is weird, but it might be fun- I know the vulture is more than a casual intruder in this scene so why not try to write this scene from the vultures POV- I'm not kidding it could be a really interesting way to intoduce your protagonist.
[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited January 19, 2005).]
posted
Ok, I've gone through a little bit of it and rewrote some of it. So here goes. I followed a bit of what Mr. Survivor hinted at and added a bit here and there and edited a bit too. Let me know if it is improved or not.
-Bryan-
Kyros followed a blood trail through the forest from a stag he just hit with an uncanny shot. The blood trail was small and barely noticeable, but the his keen eyes knew what signs to look for. He came to a clearing and saw the deer through some ferns and dense vegetation. He grinned as he walked towards the deer and noticed it didn’t get up to run, or try to take its final stand.
Kyros went down to both knees in the moist leaf-covered ground where a stag lie dying. An arrow protruded from its body behind the foreleg. Shallow and labored breathing confirmed that death was imminent. “Not to worry my friend, it will be over soon,” he said staddling the animal. Placing his large hands on the thick neck to hold the dying animal still, he closed his eyes and began to recite a prayer.
“My most humble apologizes Artemis. This magnificent beast is a necessary sacrifice. The taking of its life means the lengthening of my family’s. I return the life of this beast back to the earth, from whence it came.” He produced a large knife, slit the throat of the stag, and let the blood run into the ground.
A black vulture landed on a branch a few trees away from Kyros and screeched its arrival. The cry echoed throughout the forest and brought the hunter back to his senses, and reminded him to finish what he started.
[This message has been edited by Monolith (edited January 20, 2005).]
posted
Why is he praying before he cuts the throat? I can see saying a prayer before he goes hunting or even just before he takes his shot, but pausing to say a litany over wounded quarry seems odd.
There are some tense errors where you describe an action that happens immediately before an action that is the focus of the text. There is also still a bit of fuzziness about some of the relative locations. The vulture's position is a little clearer in terms of distance, but we still don't have a heading.
The part where Kyros "produced a large knife" is not an improvement for me, it feels like you're breaking away from his POV there. And I'm still a little sketchy on just why watching a deer bleed puts him to sleep. That's kinda strange, just by itself like that. I guess if you put the prayer there, along with a little grateful reflection (to give us a bit of context for this particular hunt), that could work out nicely though.
posted
Ok, each god has his/her own animal or symbol or weapon, that sort of thing. And it happens that Artemis' is deer, so that is why he's praying to her to forgive him for taking the deer from the world.
Ok, Mr. Survivor, I'll try to be a little more careful of POV violations, as well as putting in a retrospect of how hard it was to bring this deer down, I agree with you on that.
Anymore questions that arise from this I'll be more than happy to answer.
posted
I think this is getting better every time , much better than the original. The first and second sentences could be combined into one. Also if you move the vulture line up to the end of the prayer quote that will put your action in the correct sequence-touches deer, dazed by prayer, awoken by vulture, slits neck.
Posts: 397 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
You don't have to make a big deal out of it being really difficult, though it is a fair accomplishment to bring down a stag with a primitive bow. I just wanted to belay any thought of having him go for a head-shot (that would just look silly).
And I concur on Artemis, she's got jurisdiction over wild game hunts, and you don't want to piss her off. I'll try not to brass harrass you too much more, I promise
posted
I'm going to base this off the latest incarnation you provided in one of your last posts.
To begin, you seem to really be working hard at this opening scene, for which I have already offered a suggestion. However, regarding this scene specifically:
The first line just doesn't work for me. I don't know why -- which probably means it's simply a personal preferrance/style issue. It just doesn't introduce the story well enough for me to buy into it. I feel like I'm stepping right into the middle of something and am playing catch-up. Perhaps one of our grammar savvy folks could sum it up, but to me, I think changes in tense and word choice would make a big difference. Something more along the lines of:
"Kyros followed the blood trail through the forest."
Would be fine for the first sentence. Then you can expand upon the source of the blood trail after that.
Also, he came to a clearing and saw the deer through ... dense vegetation. How? Was he in the clearing or was the deer. If the vegetation was dense, how did he see through it? Perhaps he saw through an opening in the dense vegetation. Perhaps he saw through an opening in the dense vegetation a clearing ahead, where the stag lay dying.
The following sentences are okay. The prayer bit doesn't bother me at all, except to say that the vulture's cry bringing him back to his senses was a bit off -- he had already made his prayer and finished the beast off. I had no prior indication that he was dazed or otherwise unfocused mentally.
Also, if he SAW the bird approach, then its cry would not have shocked him much. If he DIDN'T see it approach, then he doesn't know it was a few branches away or that it landed. All he knows is he heard a cry, it shook him back to his senses, and he found a vulture resting on a branch nearby (obviousely the source of the cry)...
my 2 pennies.... good luck (and yes, it IS getting MUCH better each time I read it).
Kyros kneeled in the leaf-litter beside the fallen stag.
Or perhaps "where the dying stag lay.'
The 'kill' phase seems brutal and excessive and I don't think that is what you intend. If gentleness and respect is intended perhaps he could slit the animal's throat and sit with bowed head until it bleeds out. Or place a hand on its forehead or something.
Sometimes you seem to 'double-up' on ideas like 'body' and 'behind the foreleg' when the sentence could be tighter. I would delete the word'placement' as the idea is implicit in 'shot' and 'precision'
Also 'grinned' doesn't strike me as the right word here.
I think you have done a good job of quick characterisation.
The vulture strikes me as a harbinger. If this man believes in a world inhabited by daemons and other unseen beings; what would he make of the vulture?
I hope this opinion is useful.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited January 24, 2005).]
posted
First off, this is loads improved from the first version, way back when. I see lots of improvement in the POV area--but there's still room for more. I have a suggested exercise for you to try: rewrite it in first person.
Now pay attention. I said "exercise"! I'm not suggesting that you change this to first person, just that you convert it to first person to see how it reads. Take the first line of the latest posted version, for instance:
quote:Kyros followed a blood trail through the forest from a stag he just hit with an uncanny shot.
A straightforward conversion into first person gives:
quote:I followed a blood trail through the forest from a stag I just hit with an uncanny shot.
Now it sounds like the character is bragging about his "uncanny" shot. That tells you that in the 3PLO POV, either the character is so stuck-up that he brags even to himself, when no one else is around (which the rest of your characterization doesn't support), or it's YOU, the AUTHOR, praising the shot of your POV character--in other words, a POV violation.
This won't catch all of the potential POV problems (for instance, I don't think it would help with the one rjzeller mentioned, about knowing where the raven landed), but I think it could help you with a lot of them.
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited January 25, 2005).]
posted
Ok, here's a rewritten, revised and edited version of what was here. Let me know what works or doesn't. Thanks again, Bryan.
Kyros followed the blood trail through the forest, which was a day’s journey from his village of Atrados. The blood trail was small and barely noticeable, but his keen eyes knew what signs to look for. He saw the deer in a clearing through some ferns in the dense vegetation where it lay dying. He grimaced as he walked out of the vegetation towards the deer, and noticed it didn’t get up to run, or try to take its final stand.
Kyros went down to both knees in the moist leaf-covered ground where the stag lay dying. An arrow protruded from its body behind the foreleg. Shallow and labored breathing confirmed that death was imminent. “Not to worry my friend, it will be over soon,” he said straddling the animal. Placing his large hands on the thick neck to hold the dying animal still, he closed his eyes and began to recite a prayer.
“My most humble apologizes Artemis. This magnificent beast is a necessary sacrifice. The taking of its life means the lengthening of my family’s. I return the life of this beast back to the earth, from whence it came.”
A black vulture landed on a branch a few trees away from Kyros and screeched its arrival. The cry echoed throughout the forest and brought the hunter back to his senses, rending his thoughts of how long and hard it was to find the beast after he shot it.
[This message has been edited by Monolith (edited January 25, 2005).]
posted
I enjoy watching the editing process. We’re always adding and subtracting, looking to see what works.
quote:Kyros followed the blood trail through the forest, which was a day’s journey from his village of Atrados. The blood trail was small and barely noticeable, but his keen eyes knew what signs to look for. He saw the deer in a clearing through some ferns in the dense vegetation where it lay dying. He grimaced as he walked out of the vegetation towards the deer, and noticed it didn’t get up to run, or try to take its final stand.
I don’t like the use of “blood trail” twice in the first two sentences.
Try cutting “which was a day’s journey from his village of Atrados. The blood trail was small and barely noticeable, but his keen eyes knew what signs to look for.” Is this information necessary? This would take care of your “blood trail” repeat as well.
Why did he grimace?
quote:Kyros went down to both knees in the moist leaf-covered ground where the stag lay dying. An arrow protruded from its body behind the foreleg. Shallow and labored breathing confirmed that death was imminent. “Not to worry my friend, it will be over soon,” he said straddling the animal. Placing his large hands on the thick neck to hold the dying animal still, he closed his eyes and began to recite a prayer.
“Moist leaf-covered ground” is heavy on the adjectives to me. Do I need to know that the ground is both moist and leaf-covered? You could add a comma after ground, to separate the prepositional phrase. I had a thing about passive verbs lately, but “confirmed that death was imminent,” could be said “confirmed its imminent death,” or “confirmed an imminent death,” making the style more direct. Last two sentences use the word “animal” twice. Is this a clue that the ideas can be condensed? Maybe put the straddling in that last sentence. Should the spoken quote start a new paragraph?
quote: “My most humble apologizes Artemis. This magnificent beast is a necessary sacrifice. The taking of its life means the lengthening of my family’s. I return the life of this beast back to the earth, from whence it came.”
The above speech works fine for me.
quote:A black vulture landed on a branch a few trees away from Kyros and screeched its arrival. The cry echoed throughout the forest and brought the hunter back to his senses, rending his thoughts of how long and hard it was to find the beast after he shot it.
I agree with hoptoad, the vulture is an omen. “from Kyros” can probably stand deleting. I understand the proximity without it. Like I said before, I think Kyros always had his senses, and didn’t need “bringing back.” Now that he’s rending all those thoughts, does your narrator go on to render his thoughts as well?
Nice trick, rickfisher, rewriting in first person to look for point of view slips. I’ll have to remember that one.
posted
POV can be a subtle beasty, even with tricks.
Take the note that this forest is "a day’s journey from his village of Atrados." Now, there are actually a number of plausible reasons he might think of this. He's going to have to find this animal and carry it back home, and time-frame could be important. But you don't mention anything like that. The way it is written, this information pops up for no clear reason and has no apparent effect on the immediate scene.
The key function of POV is to put the readers into a situation where they experience the story from the point of view of your character. I know that sounds obvious when it's phrased thus, but it is one of the first things that writers forget about POV. Anything that helps the reader to imaginatively experience the same things which the character is experiencing is good POV. So it is key that the presentation of information make sense in an intuitive flow of the narrative. I currently know a great many things, but a good writer using my POV would not mention them unless making the point that I was just in the mood to think about random things that I know. Good POV restricts itself to information that is purpositive or decisive, information that the character has a reason to think about or information that is affecting the actions of the character. If it isn't immediately clear why the character is thinking something and that thought doesn't have clear consequences, then you need to either justify it or cut it. Littering your text with nuggets of information that the reader is simply to remember "for later" makes reading into a chore.
posted
Wonderful thoughts Survivor and sometimes the changes that are needed are subtle.If the location is introduced before we go into Kyros head then I think this sentence can work- A day's journey from his home, the village of Atrados, Kyros followed the blood trail. At this point we can be brought deep into Kyros head, seeing what he sees drop by drop, then through the ferns to the clearing where we learn that it is a stag's blood he is following- then we are in his head and we have some tension to boot. Also the last sentence sounds like he did not make a good killing shot, the stag should not of lingered for a long time.
[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited January 26, 2005).]
posted
Here's the third installment, let me know what you think? Better or worse.
Thanks, -Bryan-
A day’s journey from his walled village of Atrados, Kyros followed the blood trail through the forest. The trail was small and barely noticeable, but his keen eyes knew what signs to look for. Following the blood drop by drop through the dense undergrowth of the forest, Kyros knew that the stag was close-by. Smashed, broken and bent bushes and ferns made a path that was easy for him to follow. Coming to the edge of the dense vegetation, he pulled down some ferns and branches gently and saw the stag lying against a tree, laboring for every breath.
Sniffing the air, the stag caught the scent of the hunter and tried to get up. Standing shakily on its weak legs the stag tried to run.
Seeing this, Kyros slipped his bow off his shoulder and lined up a shot. “Apollo guide my arrow,” he said as he let the string loose.
The arrow impacted the stag in the jugular and it fell back to the ground, bleeding heavier than before.
Emerging from the vegetation, he slipped his bow around his shoulder, and walked towards his fallen prey.
quote:A day’s journey from his walled village of Atrados, Kyros followed the blood trail through the forest. The trail was small and barely noticeable, but his keen eyes knew what signs to look for. Following the blood drop by drop through the dense undergrowth of the forest, Kyros knew that the stag was close-by. Smashed, broken and bent bushes and ferns made a path that was easy for him to follow. Coming to the edge of the dense vegetation, he pulled down some ferns and branches gently and saw the stag lying against a tree, laboring for every breath.
I'd still prefer to see a more active voice. "Kyros tracked the injured deer for a full grueling day, following the small tell tale blood spatter.." etc.
quote:Sniffing the air, the stag caught the scent of the hunter and tried to get up. Standing shakily on its weak legs the stag tried to run.
You don't really need "sniffing the air" it's redundant with "the stag caught the scent".
quote:Seeing this, Kyros slipped his bow off his shoulder and lined up a shot. “Apollo guide my arrow,” he said as he let the string loose.
Drop "Seeing this" and just have "Kyros slipped his bow from his shoulder...".
quote:The arrow impacted the stag in the jugular and it fell back to the ground, bleeding heavier than before.
This passage feels too technical. "The arrow took the stag in the throat, it stumbled back to the ground, blood flowing freely from the new wound." Paint us the picture.
I'd really like to see you focus in on Kyros' POV and firm up his voice. This scene is visceral and intense, but your using a remote POV and it diminishes the impact of the scene.
Keep up the good work!
[This message has been edited by HuntGod (edited January 28, 2005).]
posted
Certainly sounds better each time. I like the latest version the best. It has really improved.
I like the addition of the broken plants, etc. But my nit now is the phrasing about how hard the blood trail is to follow. Does the blood trail even matter, now that the deer is leaving an obvious trail like broken plants.
Easy to fix though, just remove the "blood trail so hard to follow phrasing".
posted
MUCH better. I liked the latest version a lot. There are still some issues, but it has improved tremendously.
One thing I notice is you have a tendency to follow a given pattern when it comes to a character "doing" something. For intance:
*** Sniffing the air, the stag caught the scent of the hunter and tried to get up. *** or *** Seeing this, Kyros slipped his bow off his shoulder and lined up a shot. *** or *** Emerging from the vegetation, he slipped his bow around his shoulder, and walked towards his fallen prey. ***
sort of a "while he's doing this...he does that" type of narrative. Most, if not all of these, could be fixed simply by deleting everything in front of the comma.
"Sniffing the air...the stag caught the scent" redundant.
"Seeing this....Kyros slipp" also redundant.
Emerging from the vegetation...walked towards the beast", again, redundant.
The latter would be okay to keep the first clause -- but reword it chronologically:
"He emerged from the vegetation and walked towards his fallen prey."
Avoid beginning your sentences with 'ing' and you're fine
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