posted
Before you read the guidelines, please note that it is with permission from Kathleen, who believes that some interesting discussion on characterization may result from this. We'll find out if she's right... refer to topic: http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum11/HTML/000356.html
This is to be taken with a grain of salt, and a stiff shot of cranberry juice, too. It originally started as 10 rules, but as I get older, it grows along with me. It is written for men, by a man (me). I would have no idea what the equivalent rules for women would be, nor would I ever hope to know. I apolgize in advance for offending any of you because of this.
This most recent addition was rewritten for teens on a gaming site's forum (social topic) -- kids who were desperately seeking help in talking to women, understanding them, why they do what they do, etc. I stumbled upon their board, helped a few, then decided to post the rules. As best as I can tell, they completely ignored them, exactly what we would expect from most teens.
On to the rules, shall we? And actually, there's 16 of them...
15 Guidelines for Successful Dating... (in no particular order)
1. Do not date a woman who is majoring in psychology or psychiatry. ... under any circumstances. Many have really serious problems of their own and that's why they chose this as their major -- To find out what's wrong w/ them. Unless you want a really painful relationship, avoid them if you can. (Not always true, but from my experience -- yes, it's always true.)
2. Do not date a woman whose father is a police officer. Think about it carefully if you do break this rule. Do you really want to piss off a cop by possibly breaking his daughter's heart?
3. Do not try to solve your girlfriend's problems. Know that when a girl is telling you her problems, she really just wants someone to listen to her, to be a shoulder to cry on, etc. This doesn't mean you shouldn't help her fix her car or anything. I'm talking about her work/school issues and things like that.
4. Always remember to compliment a woman when she's dressed up for a date. Easy to forget and I've paid the price for it dearly. If she's taken any time at all to look nice for you, you had better notice it and tell her.
5. Do not talk about previous relationships. They really don't want to know... even if they ask about it. If you must discuss something, make it quick and to the point and certainly do not ever compare your current to your ex.
6. If she's mad at one of her friends, do not get involved... and if you do, always take your girlfriend's side -- even if you disagree with her.
7. Never discuss politics. You're just asking for trouble if you have opposing views.
8. Always have a plan and a backup plan for your dates. Nothing is worse than floundering around asking, "What do you want to do?" Be prepared and you'll do very well.
9. Do not be a jerk when other guys stare at your hot girlfriend. She's hot! What do you expect guys to do? Get used to it. Enjoy it if you can -- you're dating a hot chick! Not that it should be important that your girlfriend is hot...
10. If she really wants to be with you, she'll make the right decision. This is regarding what to do when someone hits on your girlfriend: Do nothing! It's up to her to deal with this. Don't try to defend her honor unless someone is really crossing the line by forcing themselves on her. Use your brains here, not your fists.
11. Never expect a committed relationship with a girl who is cheating on her boyfriend to be with you. Nor should you ever trust her. She'll cheat on you just the same as she did with her last.
12. Do not change who you are to be with someone you like. If they don't like you for who you already are, move on. However, you will naturally change somewhat when you've been with someone for a while. Nothing to worry about there.
13. Do not tell you girlfriend who she can hang out with. One of the biggest mistakes a man can make. Even if her friends are complete idiots -- they are her friends, not yours. If she's really hanging out with some serious losers, you may want to reconsider being with her anyway. Especially if there is a chance of getting in legal trouble.
14. Do not get possessive. Another easy thing to do, but avoid it at all costs. If she wants to go out one night without you, then let her. People need time apart for a healthy and happy relationship. This is also your cue for a night out with the guys.
15. Communication is the most important thing in relationships. A common sense guideline that is the most overlooked. If you can't talk to her about everything, your relationship will fail -- guaranteed!
16. (Free bonus guideline) Maybe the second most important thing to always remember: Women will change their minds for any reason at any time. You must learn to accept this. And from what I've been told by women, it is that they themselves don't even know why they are changing their minds about something. It's something they just do. It will frustrate you to no end. It frustrates them, as well. Scientists and doctors do not have an answer for this mysterious affliction that curses ALL women -- they never will, and neither will you. However, it has been proven that male pattern baldness is often a direct result of a woman's ability to change her mind in a matter of milliseconds.
posted
Well, HSO, I must say that I wasn't sure what to expect, but for the most part, I found this to be full of sound advice. I had issues with only 2 of your guidelines:
Guideline number 1: I agreed with your intention, but not the way you put it. I'm afraid that you made generalizations about a group of people that is not always true. You did mention that it is not always true, but you actually did something else bad by phrasing it this way....you missed all the english, phhysics, chemistry, engineering, and art majors who are also messed up in the head. One of the best courses I ever took was abnormal psychology. I had am excellent professor for this class and I remember her saying after each disorder, "What if you found out your husband/wife had this disorder?" "Does better or worse deal with THIS?" I found it amusing, to be honest. And the truth is, I think it is a good idea to avoid people with serious mental problems. I mean, you could probably handle a bit of depression or anxiety, for example, but schizophrenia, biploar disorder, eating disorders (unless they've recovered), a current, major depresseive episode is not something you want to deal with in starting a relationship (you want to be a boyfriend, not a thereapist. ). Anyway, I just thought I'd bring that up because I think that's what you really meant...don't date people with serious psychological problems, rather than to impugn an entire discipline of study.
Guideline number 7: I disagree with this one entirely. I assume that these guidelines for dating are meant to elad somewhere, especially since you had such good, common sense as "be yourself", in which case at some point I think you SHOULD discuss politics. Politics, religion....all those touchy subjects that you should not discuss with a casual acquaintance you will at some point absolutely need to discuss with someone you're starting to get serious about. And if she disagrees with you, then if you cannot at least come to an understanding (whether the understanding is not to discuss politics again or whether it is that you can manage to engage in friendly debate) then she's not the girl for you. If you cannot come to some kind of friendly understanding when you disagree about politics (as opposed to a more substantial and much closer issue like how to raise children) then you're not right together anyway.
Oh, and I think 9 and 10 could be combined into one guideline.
I actually thought these were very good rules. I particularly must wholeheartedly agree with number 11....and I cannot believe the people who ignore this sound bit of advice.
Honestly, I could probably make this list apply to men with only a few simple alterations. Number 3, in particular, just needs to be modified to reflect the fact that not only do men not want women to fix their problems, but that they want to go in their cave and not talk about it as women are inclined to do. (Men, have I got that one right?)
Now....the interesting characterization comes when someone breaks these rules!! You could probably write a whole series of short stories about a man who breaks these rules, one at a time, and so develops the list as he goes along.
posted
That story, Christine, would be my actual life. Seriously. How else do you think I came up with this list? Until recently, anyway.
I think if psychiatry and psychology helps someone get through emotional issues, or physical abuse, then it's a good thing. On the whole, and cannot apologize for this opinion, I find the whole of modern psychology to be... crap... maybe even the greatest scam ever perpetrated on mankind. Not always, but certainly sometimes. But, I must stress this, if it works for someone, then it's great for them. My mother used to be a volunteer counselor for rape victims (please don't comparing this in a Freudian sense), and she helped a great many victims. She had no formal training. Didn't need it. She did this because she cared about people, not for the money. And I fear a great many others do it more for the money and could honestly care less about their patients -- though I've no way of proving this.
Still, with that being said, I've known many people who work in that profession. All of them lovely people, trustworthy, friendly, you name it. Each and every one of them, severely screwed up for one reason or another. So, that entry is based upon personal experience. And you're half right, as well... you don't want your other half psycho-analyzing everything you say as well. I've been there -- it was the worst experience of my life and took me 8 years to recover from it(without professional help)... Seriously.
GL #7, is misleading. It truly refers to first dates. I've had a few truly awful (who hasn't) first dates that went bad because of political discussion. That's all. I hesistate to consider religion part of that, because it is fundamentally different. One is spiritual belief, the other is societal and cultural belief. Two different animals that should not be caged together.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited July 13, 2004).]
posted
Well, 7 and 15 conflict - I would think communicating about everything includes politics. I agree with Christine, as you need to be able to talk about all the touchy stuff. If it is such a big issue/problem that causes bad feelings, you don't want to be with him/her anyway.
So police officers should never have daughters? Or maybe they only get the good guys, who would not be jerks toward them? It's more of a "cute, ha ha, but seriously" rule.
3-6 seem ok, and can work as girl's advice for dating guys as well (I know my husband want's me to notice a haircut or trimmed beard). Same for 8-14.
posted
Your right, they do conflict... but not exactly. Dating and a relationship are not necessarily the same thing. At least in my mind. Often, dating is simply just going out with several people without any commitment. In which case, GL #7 is sound advice for the first few dates. Yet, once some type of commitment is involved, GL #7 is right out. Everything is fair game then.
The list is not perfect by any stretch... just really lessons I learned along the way and have exaggerated to some degree or another. What fun would it be if I didn't embellish it slightly?
The cop one is a cutesy one, but also learnt from personal experience. Learned - the - hard - way, unfortunately. Hey-ho.
posted
Some of these are surely tongue-in-cheeck. But the number 7 I think HSO's last comment sums it up well. I would never discuss politics on the first few dates, but I think you DO need to have that discussion eventually...especially if a relationship is to become serious.
but if I may, I'd like to add another one (though to be fair, this is probably more relevant after marriage):
17. Be prepared, and ALWAYS have an answer for the following question: "Honey, what are you thinking right now?"
I know it's a trap, but trust me...no answer is NOT the best answer. "Nothing" doesn't cut it.
And they may change their minds constantly...but one thing is for certain: Women NEVER forget. I mean never. Ever. And that's the trump card they'll use in the heat of battle. Unlike us men who can't think past what we had for breakfast this morning, women are master repositories of past experiences. And don't even THINK about trying to cop out by uttering the stupid "I never said that" line.
I'd love to give an example...but I can't recall any off hand.
[This message has been edited by rjzeller (edited July 13, 2004).]
posted
Ugh....I used to do the, "Honey, what ar eyou thinking about?" thing all the time but then I realized how annoying it was and stopped...well, for the most part. I might relapse if you come in the door in an obviously bad mood but won't tell me what it's about....Here's a hint....I'm afraid you're mad at me. If you can just say, "So and so at the office really teed me off." or something like that then I will stop nagging you about it. Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
WOW!!! I think Christine just hit a slam dunk for me!
You see...while I can ramble on quite endlessly in print, I actually "talk" very little.
People used to ask me all the time "what's wrong with you?" or "you look upset today" when in fact I was in a prefectly fine mood.
So maybe the "honey, what are you thinking" question is just a derivative of "Honey, you haven't said anything for a while, are you okay?"
To which the answer is typically, "Yes, dear. I feel fine. I'm just off in dream land at the moment."
But believe it or not, ladies, guys really ARE capable of having NOTHING going on upstairs. We're masters at zoning out. How else can we watch "Blue Collar Comedy Tour" and listen to our wives talk the whole time?
Although my wife is beginning to catch on. "You didn't hear a word I just said, did you?"
If I'm lucky I can pick out a few key words and respond, "Oh, yes I did. You were talking about Robin and how jealous she is of Pam having a baby Girl...." Then I breathe a big sigh of relief and commence hearty laughter at Ron White's "I didn't know how many of them it would take to kick my **s...but I knew how many they were gonna use" routine.
Unfortunatley, most of the time I'm relegated to apologizing that no, I didn't, and then resign myself to yet another "we need to get rid of cable" lecture.
OH--and I think this was actually intended as a thread to discuss writing suggestions. Well...I think from a characterization standpoint we can see some good examples of what do right and wrong in some relationships. That should at least help us create some tension where we need it.
[This message has been edited by rjzeller (edited July 13, 2004).]
posted
I believe the list could quite possibly be neverending...
My wife's brother has this saying, and it goes along with the adage that women never forget (and we know that's a fact, don't we men?): If a man does something once, he always does it! [from a woman's perspective, and usually about forgetting to do something -- or doing something wrong.]
I dunno if that's true, but my wife has jokingly teased me for the past year that it very well could be true. Thus, the struggle to not do anything wrong -- ever.
About the memory thing... that one does certainly belong on the list... but going on the assumption that most of us have or had mothers and/or sisters... that would already be part of one's arsenal for the battles of dating. You'd think you'd know that by the age 12... if you were brought up w/ a woman in the house. If not, then it most definitely should appear on the list.
Oh, and for me, Life is tongue-in-cheek. It has to be.
posted
Actually, I think we're getting interesting looks into the opposite gender's psyche in a somewhat less confrontational manner than the time we actually started a thread about writing characters of the opposite gender. Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I have to rush off to meet my wife at the trains station... but quickly:
How many of you feel it's necessary for a couple to share the same political views and ideals? Is this necessary for a happy relationship, or can they have two opposing views and still find plenty of middle ground for happiness?
posted
LOL...Robyn, I would never go to a bar to look for Mr. Right, but not because of where he'd be if we got into a serious relationship. No, I wouldn't go to a bar looking for Mr. Right because he's just not there. Or if he's there, he's not looking for Ms. Right, he's looking for an easy one-night distraction. (At least, that's my experience.)
I think any differences can be overcome with the right person and in the right situation. The thing is that lists like this don't often account for real relationships. You take the good with the bad, and it's a matter of whehter or not it's bad enough to you that you can't handle it or if the good is so good that you can ignore it. Political views, IMHO, are actually some of the easiest to overcome just so long as you aren't too passionate about things and don't know when to shut up.
I thin kit's easier to find someone who shares political and religious views with you, as my husband and I do. But relationships are rules and balance sheets, and any challenge can be overcome.
posted
Hey, don't forget to consider other cultures in those assumptions. Here in the UK, going to the pub is a fine English tradition. Of course, you don't have to drink, but you can certainly get a nice meal -- and sometimes even vegetarian, whoda thunk it? People even bring their families with small children to the pub for a Sunday Roast dinner. *gasp* It's where we go to meet up with our friends before heading out to a nice dinner somewhere or to a movie. There are pubs everywhere here... and it's hard to not find yourself in one at some point in any given week.
As an American, I know we frown on the whole drinking culture. Drinking = bad. As someone who lived in SLC, Utah, during his formative teen years, I know that alcohol goes against the teachings -- or rather the Words of Wisdom outlined by the LDS church and while it isn't impossible to get a drink in SLC, it's a bit difficult.
Basically, what I'm getting at is in some places/cultures, the pub is a good place to go, and others it isn't... America being one that it isn't at present. Whatever... everywhere is different.
But, my point is that it is very possible to Mr. or Mrs. Right in a pub or bar. Just so happens that I met my wife online... but we courted in a few of London's finest pubs when I finally flew out to meet her... over some very nice vegetarian fare, too... Imagine that!
</end rant>
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited July 13, 2004).]
I liked your list. But I have to agree with Christine on combining politics and religion into one class. Because for people who truly practice their religion, or are at least embedded in it by tradition, religion is a key part of their cultural/political affiliations and views. For instance, an active Catholic would have certain views on abortion/reproductive rights, and an active Mormon would have certain views on individual liberties--all strongly supported by, and taught by their religions.
For a first date it certainly is a good idea to avoid these topics. Paritcularly if you're dating for fun, rather than for relationship--as teeneagers should be. If you're dating for relationship, I see no reason to avoid the issues that may very well make or break the relationship. I don't care how cute or nice or loving a man is, if he supports issues that I find fundamentally flawed or morally depraved we're not going to get along--mostly because I love a good argument. And the great solace I find in my relationship with my husband is that we don't argue much at all. He is a safe and peaceful harbor for me, and when I want to ride the heavy surf I can go elsewhere to find it and never disturb the home port with choppy waters.
(Water again. I seem to come up with a lot of analogies related to water.)
I might also add: Don't date a woman/man who wants to be a movie star. IMO there is something (related to GL#1) in them that craves attention to an extreme degree, a pshychologically deranged degree, as is evidenced by the instability of their lives, relationships, health, happiness. Why would any sane person want to go there?
And I would add to #10--if she doesn't make the right decision, leave her with cab fare and don't look back.
All hale to #11. If more men and women realized this we'd have a much happier world.
Conversely to #12--do not expect the other person to change. This especially goes for women. Women often have this idiotic notion that they'll be able to take a total creep with hot buns and mold him into the man she wants him to be. It's a mothering instinct, I suppose. But he won't change. She'll be unhappy. It will turn into a battle for control and end bitterly.
Now about #16--a good woman will never change her mind about fundamental priniciples. She'll hold to them fiercely and defend them like a lioness (at least I do). The things women change their mind about are the little things. Like where should we go for dinner, or what color paint do you want in the bedroom. As for my poor hubby--he's not suffering from baldness, but of his five siblings he is the second to the youngest and by far the grayest. He blames me (because I let him ) for every single one.
I would have to add that women may want two different things at the same time. We want our boyfriends to be calm about who we talk to, yet we may also want to know that they're jealous, and will kick the other guy's butt, if necessary. We want a man to stand up, defend our honor, and keep the wakkos away-- but WE want to decide who they can chase off, and who they shouldn't worry about.
Man, I'm glad I'm happily married!!! I would'nt want to start the whole dating game over again for ANYTHING!
posted
Wow. Lots of stuff to reply to. Here we go:
quote:. I mean, you could probably handle a bit of depression or anxiety, for example, but schizophrenia, biploar disorder, eating disorders (unless they've recovered), a current, major depresseive episode is not something you want to deal with in starting a relationship (you want to be a boyfriend, not a thereapist).
I have a friend who attracts women with just such problems. He's had obsessives, manic depressives, compulsive liars... it really has been an education to watch, and he's starting to get _very_ cautious.
quote:Number 3, in particular, just needs to be modified to reflect the fact that not only do men not want women to fix their problems, but that they want to go in their cave and not talk about it as women are inclined to do. (Men, have I got that one right?)
That's a tricky one. Depends on mood, I think. Probably best to avoid making rules about that
quote:17. Be prepared, and ALWAYS have an answer for the following question: "Honey, what are you thinking right now?"
It was a number of years ago that I discovered that "I'm wondering if I need to buy more toilet rolls next time I visit the supermarket" isn't a good answer to that question. Honestly, I tried "nothing", followed by "it isn't important", but she wouldn't believe me.
quote:How many of you feel it's necessary for a couple to share the same political views and ideals? Is this necessary for a happy relationship, or can they have two opposing views and still find plenty of middle ground for happiness?
Most of the relationships I've had that have been longer than "brief" have had at least some common political ground. But I think that anybody you can talk to without getting into an argument, whether you agree or not, is acceptable.
quote:I've never had the opportunity to visit England, however it sounds like the pubs you describe are more like licensed restaurants.
About 75% of British pubs serve meals, and maybe half of those make it an important part of their trade. It is very important here compared to other countries I've visited (France, Spain and Belgium) where most bars don't serve food other than snacks. And, consequently, we do tend to have fewer restaurants, particularly at the lower end of the pricing scale.
But still, the important part of being a pub, as opposed to a restaurant, is that there is a bar where drinks are served and there is no pressure to buy any food.
quote:I might also add: Don't date a woman/man who wants to be a movie star. IMO there is something (related to GL#1) in them that craves attention to an extreme degree, a pshychologically deranged degree, as is evidenced by the instability of their lives, relationships, health, happiness. Why would any sane person want to go there?
Interesting point. I'd never really considered that before, having never actually met anyone that falls into this category (at least seriously), but you're probably right. I have an ambition to become well-known, but that's substantially different from becoming a "star".
posted
Heh. We girls-- women?-- need to start our own list... or maybe it'd be more helpful if we started compiling an instruction guide to women or something. We'll have to keep it secret, of course...
Yes, of course I'm kidding.
On a more serious note, though, on the politics and religion thing: I know from personal experience that it's totally possible to be really close friends with someone completely different from you-- I lived for a year with one of my best friends who probably *could not possibly* be more different from me on both politics and religion, and we're still very close. There's just certain topics that somehow will never come up.
But for a relationship, a lot of those things would be deal-breakers for me. I once got involved with a guy who was funny, nice, sweet, and overall wonderful, and a couple dates in he made a semi-serious comment about how I could be involved with his campaign PR when he ran for public office on a platform I personally could never morally, religiously, or ethically support. Right there: deal breaker. Our beliefs just weren't going to work. And if we'd discussed that on the first date, it would have meant realizing that earlier on and going our separate ways while it didn't suck quite as much as it did later on, when things were more confused. So I guess I can't agree with that one. Although-- if it's not going to be a deal breaker...
posted
From my brief visit to ENgland, I can assure you that when I said women shouldn't pick up men at bars at all, I was only thinking of American bars. To be honset, I do sometimes forget that we've got UK people here (and I think there's an Australlian hanging around somewhere, but that might be some other forum I'm getting confused with.) Basically, my rule is culture specific.
Rules for dating men: (somewhat borrowed from original list)
1. Don't date men with mental disorders
2. Don't try to get a man to talk if he doesn't want to. Men often just need to be alone, and if they want to talk, they will let you know. The fact that they do not want to talk does not mean they do not like you or value you.
3. Always remember to compliment a man when he has done something special to make himself look nice. Though men may try to seem blase about the way they look, they like to be attractive to women and to be told that their efforts are working.
4. Do not talk about previous relationships. They really don't want to know... even if they ask about it. If you must discuss something, make it quick and to the point and certainly do not ever compare your current to your ex. (direct quote...this one goes both ways, IMO)
5. Have a plan and a backup plan for your date, at least if you asked him. (This is the 21st century, after all, you *can* ask him.)
6. Don't get jealous if other girls make eyes at your man -- and for heaven's sake don't get mad at the girls. They're just telling you what you already know -- that you've got something desirable. If he reciprocates, on the other hand, toss him out the door faster than you can say, "Cheater!"
7. Never expect a committed relationship with a man who is cheating on his girlfriend to be with you. Nor should you ever trust him. He'll cheat on you just the same as he did with his last. (another beautiful direct quote, except I changed the pronouns around)
8. Do not change who you are to be with someone you like. If they don't like you for who you already are, move on. However, you will naturally change somewhat when you've been with someone for a while. Nothing to worry about there. (beautiful direct quoet)
9. Do not tell you man who he can hang out with. If he's hanging out with losers, just dump him. (Part of the whole "don't try to change him" thing)
10. Don't get possessive or clingy.
11. Communication is the most important thing in relationships. A common sense guideline that is the most overlooked. If you can't talk to her about everything, your relationship will fail -- guaranteed! (quote)
*****now for some rules I'm adding*****
12. Do not have sex with him on the first date, or even the thid. This rules is not about morals, it's about common sense. Do you want a relationship or do you want to be the village bicylcle? Tire cliche that fits perfectly "Nobody's going to buy the cow when you're handing out the milk for free." Frankly, if a man wants to have sex with you on the first date that's probably all he's interested in and unless that's all you're interested in, then don't do it.
13. Do not get involved with a drunk or drug addict. This is actually related to rule #1, but some people don't see it and it's important enough to drag out on it's own.
14. He's not going to change. Don't try it. If he's so bad you have to change him, get somebody else.
15. Do not date mama's boys. If they do everything their mother tells them, he may even decide to dump you at their whim. Or worse, he may not dump you, but his mama will always try to tell you two what to do and how to live.
posted
All right... I'm ready to tackle religion. I was hesistant because I believe that religion is a spiritual core belief, not a culturally learned belief, tho' it certainly can be both. Additionally, you can be very devout and fall onto either side of the political spectrum. It comes down to the political issues you find most important, doesn't it? Left-wingers and right-wingers in America can and do believe in the same god. Interpretation of that god is another thing, however.
So, let's start w/ a simple one, and then I'll try to make an analogy for characterization's sake...
A couple. One believes in God, the other doesn't. Will it work? Can it work? Absolutely. I've seen it happen w/ plenty of couples. On the sabbath, one goes to church, the other stays at home. I imagine it's more common than many think. But here, I think how it would work is dependent upon both personalities, as someone pointed out earlier. If one nags the other to do something they don't want to do, then it won't work at all. It is quite probable, however, that the two will eventually share the same faith -- as people grow more alike the more time they spend together. Which faith they choose, Agnosticism/Atheism or Theism would make an interesting story.
Characterization for SF: What would an alien species believe? Certainly not a Christian God or any of Earth's deities. They would have their own, if any at all. I can picture missionaries from both species trying to convert each other to believe in their one true god. What a story that would make -- and has been made, I think. But, what if there is real love involved between a human and a 'compatible' alien ... what then? Not only do you have a species difference to overcome (and all the bigotry that goes with it), but also a fundamental religious difference. To overcome or not to overcome.... Does true love prevail?
That's what I'm on about... I guess.
Edit: What if the two faiths merged into an altogether new religion? It's happened plenty of times here on this planet in real life... seems logical to me that it can happen with two entirely different faiths given enough time.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited July 14, 2004).]
posted
HSO said: A couple. One believes in God, the other doesn't. Will it work? Can it work? Absolutely. I've seen it happen w/ plenty of couples.
I've seen it work, too. But it gets very difficult once you have children.
The spouse who believes in God will try to pass those beliefs off to his/her offspring. The atheist will do the same. The children will have to choose one set of beliefs or the other. However, no matter which set they choose, they will always be at variance with one parent. This tears a kid up inside.
In the situations I've seen, once those children grow up, there's usually a lot of issues between them and the parent they decided was wrong about religion. It can be as mild as a subject that's never, ever touched (an impossible situation when death enters the picture) or as serious as shutting the parent out of their life completely. (I have to admit, when it's the last one, there's usually other issues involved that have little or nothing to do with religion.)
In the story idea you mentioned, that could be a great source of conflict.
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited July 14, 2004).]
posted
Can a relationship between two different religious beliefs work? Yes, but it can become difficult to maintain when, like Keeley said, children enter the picture. The same could be said about interacial relationships too.
It's interesting. These days it seems like so much emphasis is put on being "in love" when it comes to relationships but really, in the long run, Love just ain't enough.
posted
The different religion questions is interesting, and I think Doc Brown hit on a key point here. We emphasize this magical "being in love" thing and "love conquers all" but I don't believe it. (Call me cynical if you will.) Those sparks fade, the love goes, and if underneath there isn't even a seed of common ground then a relationship cannot survive.
My husband and I are both Catholic, so I'd love to hear this question answered by someone who is in a relationship with someone who is not the same religion. My guess is that if you do not have the same religion to cling to, you will need to have many other areas of common ground to fall back to when the magic starts to fade. If not religion, then at least values, politics, hobbies, friends, and you must have compatibiel dispositions. I also agree that introducing children will be tricky.
quote:Ugh....I used to do the, "Honey, what ar eyou thinking about?" thing all the time but then I realized how annoying it was and stopped...well, for the most part. I might relapse if you come in the door in an obviously bad mood but won't tell me what it's about....Here's a hint....I'm afraid you're mad at me. If you can just say, "So and so at the office really teed me off." or something like that then I will stop nagging you about it.
I know I'm a guy, but I do a variation on the same thing. My question is, "What's wrong?" and I'm actually asking "Are you mad at me?" What's REALLY infuriating is that thing women do...you know that "I'm fine" thing. And by fine they mean, "I hate you right now and if I have my way you're not going to touch me for a month!"
But sometimes they're not mad at you, but you have no way of knowing because last time she was "fine" the argument lasted a week. So, you go through your head thinking of anything you could've done during the tenure of your relationship that might have offended her.
The same thing applies here. EXPRESS you feelings!!!! Tell me what's wrong, and if don't wanna talk about it I'll leave you alone as long as you're not pissed at me.
JOHN!
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited July 14, 2004).]
ACK! Ok, that's beyond cynical. Please tell me you really don't believe that love disapears. I would say, rather, that it deepes into something new. Just because you don't feel butterflies in your stomach everytime you see the person doesn't mean that you aren't in love anymore. And yes, there has to be something besides sparks for a relationship to last.
I can't speak for myself, but my parents are of different faiths, one Catholic and the other Protestant, but I would argue that there are still seeds of comon ground there regarding fundamental beliefs (please do not respond regarding differences in Catholicism and Protestantism). Meaning it is different from a friend brought up christian who married someone jewish. They origionally agreed to raise their children in both faiths, but now that the child is born, uh, it's really become a struggle. One of the couple wants the child brought up exclusively in their own faith, and the other wants the child brought up in both. They have come very close to almost shouting at each other in front of company. I know it has strained their relationship both together and with their families (one refuses to even see the in-laws and does not want the child to see them either), but only after the child was born. I don't know what this holds for their future, but their dynamic with each other is strained even with simple things like deciding on which movie to go see. Again, though, none of this was even something of passing note before the child came. This is just one example and I hope this is the kind of insight you were looking for. Since I am not in such a relationship, I can not give a personal account.
posted
I think women should have some guidelines as well…
Christine’s post reminded me of something someone emailed me…
Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down.
Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if we can find the perfect present yet again!
Sometimes, we are not thinking about you. Live with it.
Do not ask us what we are thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as navel lint, the shotgun formation, and comic books.
Sunday = sports. It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides. Let it be.
Shopping is NOT a sport, and no, we are never going to think of it that way.
When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine. Really.
Crying is blackmail.
Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work. Strong hints do not work. Obvious hints do not work. Just say it!
We don't remember dates. Mark birthdays and anniversaries on a calendar. Remind us frequently beforehand.
Most guys own three pairs of shoes - tops. What makes you think we'd be any good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with your dress?
Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.
Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's what we do.
Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.
Check your oil! Please.
Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.
If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.
If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.
Let us ogle. We are going to look anyway; it's genetic.
You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done - not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.
Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials.
Christopher Columbus did not need directions, and neither do we.
The relationship is never going to be like it was the first two months we were going out. Get over it. And quit whining to your girlfriends.
ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.
We are not mind readers and we never will be. Our lack of mind-reading ability is not proof of how little we care about you. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like nothing's wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.
I'm in shape. - ROUND is a shape
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited July 14, 2004).]
posted
How many women with PMS does it take to change a lightbulb?
Six.
(Wait for it, someone will eventually ask, "Why?") It just does, okay!
As much as I hate it, there's one day a month where I'm not a rational person. I describe it as "fragile" in that my emotions will tip over into various spectrums with little effort. The "Fine" word has come out of my mouth and I hate it when I do that. The best I've managed is to let my husband know that I think I'm having PMS reactions and that we should table any discussions till the next day.
I used to think PMS was bogus, till I started tracking things on the calendar and realized that my mood swings were always at the same point. Before I tracked it, I would get angry about things for very little reason. Here's the tricky thing though. Just because it's PMS doesn't mean that my point isn't valid. My reaction is just more extreme on that day.
quote:My husband and I are both Catholic, so I'd love to hear this question answered by someone who is in a relationship with someone who is not the same religion. My guess is that if you do not have the same religion to cling to, you will need to have many other areas of common ground to fall back to when the magic starts to fade.
My husband is an aetheist. I was raised United Methodist. We're fine. We argue religion sometimes but both of us are content with the other. My dad is a Republican, my mom is a Democrat. They have an agreement to never discuss politics and they've been married for almost forty years.
There was an interesting study on pheremones (sp?) which indicates that people put out pheremone, the 'spark', during the first three years of a relationship that fades over time. The study went on to say that the relationships that lasted were the ones where the couple worked actively to maintain the romance, that they never stopped courting each other.
[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited July 14, 2004).]
quote:ACK! Ok, that's beyond cynical. Please tell me you really don't believe that love disapears.
OK, I didn't mean to come across as THAT cynical...sorry. Let me try to rephrase this. Most people think that love IS those sparks and magic and butterflies. That does fade even to the point of disappearing in some cases. Real love takes effort, you have to work at it every day, and you have to be an active particpant in the emotion. I was not at all clear about that.
posted
Religious and political conversations have never been a problem with me and my girlfriend. More heated conversations are things that have no bearing on our relationship right now. Like if what cartoons we’ll let our kids watch or if we’ll buy our kid a c@r when they turn 16 or make him pay for a junker. Yeah, I know it sounds fairly normal---here’s the thing, though. We’ve only been together a year. We’re not engaged, we’re not living together, we have no kids together, and we’re not expecting or planning on one any time soon?!?!?!?!? Man, some couples argue over some silly things.
posted
Some people think a year is a very long time, John. And those things are very normal to talk about BEFORE you have kids, get married, or even get engaged. If you don't start arguing until after, then you're in real trouble.
I got engaged after dating my husband for 3 months...of course, that was a special case since we'd been best friends for 6 years before that. But in those 3 months we caught up on all the things that you don't talk about with a best friend but do talk about with someone you're sizing up for a life partner...especially raising children and religion.
posted
Yeah, as I was typing it I realized these conversations were part of the "sizing up" mode.
That's cool you were engaged after 3 months. My parents were MARRIED after 3 months!!!! Even more surprising is that next May will be their 30th anniversary!!!!
Those whirlwind things work out every now and then!
posted
Wow, Christine. My eyes jumped out of my skull when I read "3 months", but then I saw that you were best friends, first. I can't imagine three months, or even, truthfully, a year.
My brother and his new wife dated on and off for seven or eight years before finally tying the knot. This seems a little long to me, don't get me wrong, but it's not that long. Three to five years seems just right, if you ask me.
posted
I too agree that love can fade and die. And I would venture to guess the less the two parties share in common, such as politics and religion, the more apt it is to happen.
*joyfully goes offline to nurture a loving relationship with her husband*
posted
I find that two basic things determine how long a relationship should be: life circumstance and personality.
I say life circumstance instead of age, but age is a part of life circumstance. If you are young, still in school, still determining who you are let alone who would be good with you, then your life circumstance requires a longer relationship. Also, life circumstances could be something like waiting to get out of school of the military before comiting. On the other hand, if you're over thirty (especially if you're female) and your biological clock is ticking, let's face it, there's a need to accelerate the dating process.
Personality has to do with how a person approaches a relationship. Do you know what you want and set out to immediately ask all the proper questions or do you take it slowly, only self-disclosing after some time has elapsed? Whichever way you go, you still need some time with the person to make sure what they do and what they say match. (I can't imagine people getting together after knowing each other for only a couple of months or less, I mean, we can all act at least that long and be lying about ourselves.)
In general, I think one year is a goo dnumber. If you are an adult, out of school, you know what you want and are ready to be committed, then a year is all you need to determine if they are right for you or not. After a year, if you are still unwilling to comit, you have to ask yourself why? Is there something you still don't know or are you afraid? Are you leading this other person on and wasting years of their life?
I think three to five years is a terrible amount of time to spend in an adult relationship. (I distinguish this from any relationships that occur before college graduation because they are just so different.) If I were with someone for that length of time and still didn't have a ring and a promise, I'd be terrified that I had just wasted years of my life. It's easy for men, who don't have the same biological constraints that women do, but think about it. If, after five years, you decide you were wrong aftera ll for whatever reason, and then you have to spend five more years to find out if this other relationship will work, and then five on another....humans don't live forever. Sooner or later you have to take a chance.
At least, that's the way I see it.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited July 14, 2004).]
posted
Been at this marriage thing fifteen years. You're foolish if you go into it believing that the spark that got you there is going to be all hot and fiery until death do you part.
In a truly committed relationship love never dies. It fades, it wanes, it comes and goes in cycles. But when you work at it, like Christine said, it endures and deepens and sweetens over the years. Notice I didn't call the relationship a loving one. I called it a committed one. Commitment, covenant, not contract. Contracts are made to be broken. Commitments are made to last.
I love hubby now more than ever. But the honeymoon ended twelve and a half years ago when blondy was born. Then it turned into work with lots of highs and lows and trials and tribulations and mistakes and triumphs and celebrations and I wouldn't take a moment of it back.
So it's a good idea to be sure you and your partner are in it for the commitment--not the contract. Because with a contract the trials and tribulations and lows are going to mean an unhappy ending. I'd rather have the ending be me and hubby, old and gray, wrinkly and palsied, holding hands and smiling at each other while young couples watch us and get all warm and fuzzy inside because someone--SOMEONE--made it through.
And as far as the common religion--I have a number of dear friends who, as someone said, go to church alone. Not a single one of them doesn't wish they had their spouse there with them.
Life has enough regrets. And we bring them on ourselves through our decisions and the consequences that naturally accompany them. Be careful, when you have the opportunity, to choose them carefully. You might not think having different religions (or other differences or troubles) is so big a thing when his kiss tastes so sweet on your lips. But if you're really serious about a committed relationship, you'd better give it some serious thought and discussion and then live with whatever you decide. Because the rest of us don't want to hear you whine if the stuff hits the fan.
It's like someone who foolishly buys a house bigger and more extravagant than they can afford then complaining that they don't have any money. Boo hoo!
posted
My wife and I laughed at John's post for quite some time. Great stuff. Anyway...
My wife is my soul mate. No doubt about it. I still get soppy over her... Can't help it. She's perfect for me, and she says I'm perfect for her -- I believe her. We're alike enough that we get along very well... we're different enough that we compliment each other's strengths -- balancing out each other weaknesses. We were very lucky to have found each other -- but luck may have had nothing to do with it. Destiny, perhaps.
We've also never argued over anything, ever. I know what you're thinking... yeah right. It's true, though. We communicate wonderfully. We disagree on some points, sure, but we laugh over them at the same time. We're adults... all those years of dating other people was just practice for us... we've sorted ourselves out and got the BS out of the way so we didn't have to figure out the easy and hard stuff together... :P
Our rule is this: We accept each other for who we are. We do not ever try to change the other. Because, when we fell in love, we fell in love with the person for who they were... why would we want to change that? (Who brought that up in their post above?)
It works for us. What more can I say about it? Here's some more:
Yes, both of us will change as time goes by. But we're looking forward to that challenge, actually. We know we'll do fine. Because there's only one thing that truly matters -- that we have each other. Everything is just everything else... it's not important. Money isn't. We're not having children, so no worries there.
You see, we are soul mates -- we've always been together. It just took us a long time to find each other this time around on this planet... and quite a considerable distance separated us: 3267 miles as the crow flies. We still found each other, tho'...
posted
So...back to number one on the lists (pick your favorite) regarding the mental disorder thing? Has anyone read (or at least tried to) the book The Midnight Disease? It's about us writers...and how, technically, chemically, we are just different from "normal" people. We all have our own little worlds and relate people and situations to things that do not exist. We make strange observations about obvious things. We are students of life (take this discussion, for example).
"Much madness makes divinest sense," right? Perhaps instead of avoiding someone who's crazy, we simply need to find someone who's the RIGHT kind of crazy.
People in real life -- and in the stories we write -- can be as different as night and day but still manage to make it Happily Ever After. Maybe it's just matching up that perfect imperfection that makes them click.
posted
It's 10:00 here in SLC, and my wife just turned off the bedroom light. She goes to bed and I stay up, until I can't keep my eyes open. So I agree with the "Midnight disease". She had a hard time adjusting to me wanting to stay up later and later most every night, but she is OK with it now -- I think. We have been married for 15 years now -- no kids, so we still act like we are newly-weds, mostly. It works out pretty good and I enjoy the attention, she does too.
We met in July of 1988 and were married in March of 1989. She was only nineteen, and I was twenty-two. It just seemed like the thing to do, so we did it. I haven't ever regretted that decision. We have had our times of arguments and hardships, but who besides HSO hasn't? I think I would hate it if we agreed upon everything, what's fun about that? I am glad I married a headstrong woman who doesn't agree with everything I say or do. I am a person and she is a person, together we make a couple. If I have a bad idea, she doesn't hesiate to tell me so, and I appreciate that.
The only thing I hate is when she says "whatever". I think that is worse than "fine" which was mentioned earlier.
posted
Heh... I was up until 2:30am GMT time last night... I try to not do it too often, but sometimes it's an absolute necessity to stay up. My wife also understands and encourages it -- She wants me to write, as much as I do.
By the way, we do disagree on things but we don't argue about them. Neither of us enjoy arguments, it's just not in our personalities. We do, however, have healthy debates on things, like story ideas and life's generalities... and of course, the best way to write feminine dialogue.
And then, there's that whole Yanks Vs Red Coats thing, too... You'd think that after 200 years or so that they'd let one little declaration of independence fade from memory...
posted
Okay, since I didn't notice anybody discussing Christine's list yet, let me just make a couple of comments:
quote: 3. Always remember to compliment a man when he has done something special to make himself look nice. Though men may try to seem blase about the way they look, they like to be attractive to women and to be told that their efforts are working.
6. Don't get jealous if other girls make eyes at your man -- and for heaven's sake don't get mad at the girls. They're just telling you what you already know -- that you've got something desirable. If he reciprocates, on the other hand, toss him out the door faster than you can say, "Cheater!"
As a guy, I have to bring up issue with these two points. #3 is a little thing, but I know that while it's true that we guys actually do care about how we look, it doesn't necessarily mean we want girls to compliment us on it. I for one would be a bit embarassed to be complimented on my appearance, no matter how carefully I gelled my hair or how cool my new shirt is.
#6 I have to take up serious issue with on one point: if you're going to dump a guy just for looking at other women, I don't think you're going to find a heterosexual male on this planet who you're willing to date. We're just wired to look when there's an attractive woman nearby, and no force of nature or will can ever completely stop the reflex. So cut us a little slack. If we're going overboard, I can see your point, but if you catch us looking at other women once or twice on a date, get over it. It just happens.
quote:We're just wired to look when there's an attractive woman nearby, and no force of nature or will can ever completely stop the reflex. So cut us a little slack. If we're going overboard, I can see your point, but if you catch us looking at other women once or twice on a date, get over it. It just happens.
He's right on this. Don't let your own insecurities get in the way here... If we didn't want to be with you, we wouldn't be there with you. Trust me. My wife and I look at both men and women while we are out and will say things like "She's hot!" or "That's a good looking guy." Then again, neither of us are insecure about our love for each other and our monogamous commitment. This goes along with the communication rule and always being honest. It's normal and OKAY to be attracted to someone else. It's not right to act upon that attraction however.
Still, when on first dates (like the first 20 maybe), it's DEFINITELY NOT a good idea to check out other women. Your attention should be solely focused on the girl your with. Otherwise, you'll regret it...
posted
Wow, you two totally missed the point of #6...by reciprocate I did NOT mean to NOT even look. I couldn't care less if you do. Reciprocate, in my mind, meant touching. That is out of line. I could go back and rephrase it, but I thought it was obvious and so I won't.
As for the "right kind of crazy"...Have you ever gotten ahold of a DSM and looked at the criterion for some of these diseases? More to the point, have you ever studied the diseases and found out how they really effect people's lives? There are some weirdos in psychology who psychoanalyze everyone and try to give names to their midnight craziness, but they are no more truly crazy than you are, just weird and probably annoying. Those diseases did not make it into the DSM lightly. Each and every one represents a problem that if a person has, represents a seroius impedement to ledaing their life. (I wish I could find my own copy of the DSM, because every disorder has what I just said, worded much more eloquently ,as one of the criterion.) Basically, if you're ok being the way you are, you're not crazy. If it's not hurting you when you go to work, or go out with your friends, or raise your kids, or have a relationship with your spouse, then it's not a disorder.
posted
Back to HSO's list, with a comment about #8.
My daughter, who had dated lots of guys and turned down so many proposals we lost count (most of the time because the guys got possessive very quickly--see #14), married the guy who had learned these tips well.
I want to share with you his approach to #8. On their first date, he asked her to choose among about five different countries--he had worked out a plan for dinner and an activity relating to each of the countries.
She chose Russia, and for that they went to a Russian restaurant (I think it was called Rasputin's), and then went to a park near our house and played chess.
She was really impressed that he had something similar worked out for all of the other countries and was willing to go out with him again to get to know such an interesting guy better.
He was smart enough to realize that being friends with her first (instead of declaring his undying love) was the way to her heart, and he won. (And we're glad he did.)
posted
[Note to wife, if you read this... skip this post.] To all: she likes to read through the topics here from time to time, especially this one. (She's biased)
. . . I like that idea so much, Kathleen, I'm going to steal [borrow] it and try it out w/ my wife.
posted
The only problem with the "Do not look at other women" bit is they have a simple yet effective trap for this. In fact, in legal terms one might accuse them of entrapment:
A bombshell with a body of 9.5 on the richter scale strolls by the dinner table and eyes you seductively.
You ignore it.
She apparently sits at a table behind yours. Five minutes later you get the following from your equally gorgeous spouse:
"Do you think she's pretty?"
Now it usually takes a moment to figure out who she's referring to (HONESTLY...it DOES...). But once you turn around and see earthquake babe sitting behind you you're forced to a reply.
This one I never seem to get right.
"Uh, no. Actually..." then you find some insanly superficial flaw to point out and dwell upon, hoping to solidify your position that the center of the universe is the woman in FRONT of you and nothing else matters.
This typically gets the "you're such a terrible liar" response.
The other option?
"Oh G*D yes!" as you grin stupidly, "If it wasn't for the fact that you were sitting here I would likely have choked on my own drool. I haven't seen buns that smooth since my last trip to the wonderbread store."
But seriously, how many times can I fend off that question? She asks me that about all kinds of women (all ages too).."Do you think Laura is cute?"
c'mon...have a heart. Some questions just don't have a right answer. At least, not when SHE's asking them. Really--only around the guys could you get away with "she wouldn't look good to a blind man in heat" or "man I'd love to be THAT shirt for a day."
Sorry...just one of those questions that can kill a guy's night.
And contrary to popular belief...we DON'T always notice.
[This message has been edited by rjzeller (edited July 15, 2004).]
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). Anyway, I just thought I'd bring that up because I think that's what you really meant...don't date people with serious psychological problems, rather than to impugn an entire discipline of study. 
) for every single one.
