HOWEVER....this is not an intimate book. At least, not in the spirit I believe Mary is speaking of. Vampire romance is, IMO, a sick and twisted subset of fantasy that does not constitute the same thing as true intimacy or real romance. I just found the word I was looking for in my last sentence...fetish. It's a fetish. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just saying that there are a great many of us out there, particularly women, who could get a lot out of true intimacy in fantasy.

Mary, my first recommendation for anyone looking for such in a fantasy is Mercedes Lackey...at least, most of her Valdemar books contain romance and intimacy as a major subplot often more interesting and certainly more memorable than the main plot. I sometimes wonder if the romance is supposed to be more powerful but often the fate of the world or at least the kingdom rides on the other half of the plot so...

I would like to see more romance like that. I attempted to write a short story in that vein recently myself but it needs a lot of work and maybe even a novel to fit it in.

I don't know the fantasy genre very well, but I would say that Twain's A Connecticuict Yankee in King Arthur's Court and The Mysterious Stranger are somewhat intimate fantasy novels. Although now that I think of it, Yankee does involve a kingdom and [/i]Stranger[/i] involves an angel names Satan, so perhaps they are not as intimate as you would like.

Oh well, personally, I think some of the vampire romantic type novels, and I say romantic type because there's no romance per se, can be quite intimate. Anne Rice's Vampire chronicles, for example. (Of course, there is that whole homoeroticsm thing going on between creatures without sex drives.)

Of course, this is a personal opinion. Readers taste vary widely, which is why so many of us exist to cater to them.
But, after glancing at your post, you have forced me to do something which I, ahem, did not want to do. I'm getting up from the keyboard, and going into my my library to glance through my titles. I betcha money that I can find three titles, by three different authors, (none of them me) that will make you smile to read.)
Hah. Gauntlet is thrown down.

Okely dokely, neighboreenos...
Title 1: 'When We Were Real' by William Barton.
This is science fiction at it's best, and it is a story with pretty of conflict. But the main story isn't saving the world, or galaxy, etc. It's the relationship between the protagonist, Darius Murphy, who is born immortal, as is most of his priveleged class, and Violet, a genetically-engineered space-pilot.
This is one of the most beautiful, and unusual, love stories that I personally have ever read (even considering that as a kid, if I ran out of library books, I would sift through my mother's romances). The prose is utterly brilliant, making this title one of my most re-read books. (Somewhere around twenty or so) I finally had to put it down, as it was getting memorized, and that's just no fun. I highly recommend it.

Title 2: 'Wolf and Iron' by Gordon Dickson.
This is another at the top of my re-read list. I wore out the pages on my first copy, so when I saw a relatively fresh copy at a local used bookstore, my hand flew to it faster than a rattlesnake.
'Wolf and Iron' is the story of Jeebee Walther, who is making his way across the country after the Collapse of the world economy, his only companion a pure bred wolf, tamed at the hand of a man now dead. Along the way, he falls in with a band of peddlers, and falls in love with the head peddler's (that just sounds funny) daughter. But it is a dangerous world in the remnants of America, and each has to make their own way as best they can. A great read. One of Dickson's best.

Title 3: 'Jumper' by Steven Gould.
This one is more of a young adult, but if you can look past that, there is a great story about a teleport runaway coming to terms with his unusual gift, along with his painful past. While part of the story deals with his relationship with his abusive alcholic father, and the mother that ran off when he was young, (due to the father's penchant for knocking her senseless) there is a sweet romance here, with the interesting shift of the teleport date. (Where do you want to go? Where can we go? Anywhere you want.) It's a great book, and a fun read.

So, haha, there is the gauntlet. I dare thee to take it up, Sers!

[This message has been edited by Netstorm2k (edited January 03, 2005).]

(I like these smilie thingies)

The only examples that I've come up with have been either SF or contemporary dark urban fantasy. I was thinking specifically of period fantasy. Doc Brown, you've hit upon my problem. I'll read Lost Horizon, although I suspect that it might be 'disqualified' based on the end of the world aspect.

Now I can come up with lots of SF novels with more intimate plots, but very, very few Fantasy novels. Why is that? What is it about Fantasy that compels writers to raise the stakes that high? Is it a demand of the readers?

(PS Thanks Netstorm)

For me I prefer that its hinted at such as was done in the Blood novels by Tanya Huff. That says more to me than it does with LKH.

I mean, LOTR as an over the top example, if you just cut it down to the bare bones of the story/plot, how epic would it be? So danged much of it is milieu, and that seems to be typical of most period fantasy. The writer needs (MOSTLY by definition of the genre) to build a world in which to set his story. Since there are no cut and dried systems of belief, you have to spend an awful lot of time telling the reader what they should believe.

Dragons, for instance. There are so many ways that dragons can be presented. Each writer has to spend time helping the reader believe that dragons are friendly/the enemy/extinct/rare/as common as cattle/as stupid as worms/as intelligent as humans/from another planet/living in the drain pipes of the federal prison system/etc,etc,etc,etc.

And this most often needs to be done with EVERYTHING of importance presented in the writer's particular world.

So, unless I'm completely missing your definition of 'epic', that's what I think.

Helpful? Or just the ravings of a lunatic?

Hmmmm....

Can I think of any novels that deviate from the epic form? Well, since that's the only kind of fantasy that I tolerate (that high fantasy rife with milieu tends to bore me)I thought Stardust by Neil Gaiman was pretty good. An excellent adult fairy tale! It's not exactly 'period'. It's set in the 1930's if I remember. But the technology is negligibly important. It really could have been written as a 'period' piece and still have been just as charming.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671654160/102-4461180-3719315?v=glance

The fantasy I'm working on has no world ending plot, but that's just me. If I were to do a second, well...then there would have to be a larger plot that would have more world effecting elements. I'm not real concerned at this point, since I have to get a first one written. Since the plot involves a definite ending that doesn't require anymore, a second might never happen.

This is an excellent question I was pondering just myself recently. Seems everything fantasy is always "save the world" plots. Nature of the beast, I guess.

however, there are some stories which seem to be more intimate, even if they take place on a larger/grander scale. Some Terry Pratchett books (most recently read MORT) are very personal in spite of the power or control some characters may have. And (and I KNOW I'm going to draw fire for this one, but) I think the HP books are relatively intimate. They really all relate to the fate of a single boy and his friends. That's it. Not the whole world, just Harry.

Sadly, everything I've read is actually, er...epic. So I cannot fairly reccomend anything, but I'm with MaryR...I'd love to hear of some...

HP's conflict with He Who Must Not Be Named is an epic plot in my mind. LOTR's basic plot is "Ring must be destroyed or the world ends." The book might focus on the character and the milleau, but the plot is still, well, epic.

As I said before, the only ones that I can come up with are set in a more modern milleau like Stardust.

Thanks for the Sheepfarmer's Daughter reference mikemunsil. I'll check that out from the library.

rjzeller wrote:

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Seems everything fantasy is always "save the world" plots. Nature of the beast, I guess.

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I love Brooks' characterization in these books. The Female characters are very strong in Running with the Demon. Probably his best female characters I can think of, in any of his novels.

Another book comes to mind, The Last Dragonlord, by Joanne Bertin. It isn't a great literary example, but I don't remember it having an "end of the world" plot. I may have forgotten, but I think it is just a coming of age or discovery type of fantasy. And it isn't a modern or urban fantasy setting. It has been a few years since I read it, and there was a follow-up to that book, but I wasn't pleased enough with the first one to buy number two.

Perhaps a reason why there seems to be a limited selection of close, intimate fantasy, is because authors who write fantasy do so because they like creating grand, sweeping settings as opposed to characters. The character races are fairly established, so you take few elves, a couple of dwarves, several humans and perhaps a wizard or two, throw in a devil-type antagonist and write about the good guy's quest to save the world. With sci-fi, especially sci-fi involving aliens, the author has to put more effort into creating the character races because no one is going to know what a Saleinkrous Profigate is, unless they are told.

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Several months ago, someone posted information about a publishing house called Luna (I think ). It is a division of Harlequin or something and is geared toward publishing fantasy that has a focus on relationships instead of so much emphasis on world ending epics.

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I've never read anything published by them, but an author on another board I read sold a book to them last year.

The blurb on her web site begins:

"Joanne Walker has three days to learn to use her shamanic powers and save the world from the unleashed Wild Hunt."

I haven't read anything by C. J. Cherryh. But from the little I know about her, I'm guessing you might find an "intimate" fantasy somehwere in her work.

But then I could think of very few examples of fantasy literature which didn't involve the fate of the world/kingdom. Why is that? Do fantasies lend themselves to dramas of epic proportions? Is it the magic? When a writer looks at how they can raise the stakes for their characters, does the addition of magic automatically entail the fate of the world? Or is it just that this is the sort of book readers want?

As for why epic tales sell well... It may have something to do with the fact that most people need a large butt-kick before getting into gear. And what could motivate you more than the end of the world?

Gandalf: The ring can only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom, where it was forged. Taking it there will be a long and difficult task, with many dangers on the road.

Frodo: And if we don't succeed, then Sauron will rule Middle Earth?

Gandalf: Well, no. If the Elves and Mankind fight together, they can turn back Sauron.

Frodo: But if the ring isn't destroyed, then darkness will spread across the face of the land, turning people against each other?

Gandalf: No, the power of the ring is fading. It's rather old, you know. Its recent manifestations have been in the nature of a last gasp before dying.

Frodo: But the legend of the One Ring will continue, and many wars will be fought over it, even though it has no power left?

Gandalf: Not really. As its power fades, so will knowledge of its existence. As it was once forgotten, so it shall be again.

Frodo: So why does it need to be destroyed?

Um...doesn't Ged use a disasterous Spell of Summoning bring the shadow beast into Earthsea?

Interestingly, this is all foreshadowed in the first book, where it is specifically mentioned that this is a tale of Ged before he did all his "great" deeds. LeGuin also explores Ged's life after his great deeds, though her later activist inclinations may have blinded her to the fact that all the later themes had already been effectively (perhaps more so) explored in that first book.

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But then I could think of very few examples of fantasy literature which didn't involve the fate of the world/kingdom. Why is that? Do fantasies lend themselves to dramas of epic proportions? Is it the magic? When a writer looks at how they can raise the stakes for their characters, does the addition of magic automatically entail the fate of the world? Or is it just that this is the sort of book readers want?

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Some people really like this kind of high-stakes drama. I'll admit to being one of them. And I think, as a group of people, we are attracted towards writing fantasy and SF, rather than something about F&SF provoking its writers to increase the stakes.

The point is, that to write something of this nature, you need freedom. I couldn't write a story set in a present day, realistic Earth where the stakes are that high. Finding a way of raising the stakes so high would be quite hard.

Some political thriller writers manage it, but other than those, speculative fiction is the only group of genres where you can do it effectively, I think.

So I guess this just means that since fantasy tends to revolve around exceptional characters, their conflicts tend to become exceptional as well. SF tends to go to the opposite, sometimes, where the situation is exceptional, and the person has to deal with it and getting out of the situation alive is more than enough excitement.

And funny enough, the first book issued by LUNA is "The Fairy Godmother" by Mercedes Lackey! I do plan to read it, after my current tome.

Really? If other such books exist it doesn't matter because you're not telling THEIR story, you're telling YOUR story. Furthermore, if such books don't exist, then you have an opportunity to do something truly unique.

So do it. Do it in your own way, telling the story as only you can. IF the rudiments of good fiction are still present, it doens't have to be epic to be good. Does it?

I say not. A more intimate story about individuals instead of the fate of the world would actually be refreshing for a change.

I realize your original post had nothing to do with actually WRITING a book as such, but one assumes that is your ultimate aim.

And if it's not, well...you thought of it, so why not try? You seem to know more about writing than at least 1/2 the rest of us...so knock yourself out!!

Hi, I belong to the Imperial legions that go around stomping on babies to give our boots that nice cordovan polish we would otherwise have to buy better quality boots to get. Hi, I belong to the Imperial legions that protect all the roads so that the people can prosper in trade and free pilgramages without having to worry too much about getting chopped into mincemeat by bandits. Hi, I'm the local druid who takes care of the forest and all the cute animals. Hi, I'm the local druid who sacrifices virgins to the dark gods under the standing stones.