posted
One of the fragments up in F&F gave me the idea that we might need a topic over here to discuss race sensitive issues in our writing. What's ok? What's not ok? Where's the borderline? And perhaps most importantly, where does a publisher draw that line, knowing the heated topic it is in our culture today?
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I wish I knew. I wouldn't dare use the N word, given attempts to ban Huck Finn, an anti-racism book if there ever was one. I notice in pop culture, often, they won't even touch race. Consider Batman (film). Gotham City had everything wrong with it -- except race. Nobody noticed what color anyone was.
I think we can get by with more in fiction. I would dare discuss racism, but I'd bury it in the book. My WIP has a reference to black kids comparing skin color to laugh at the darker ones.
Mike Reznick wanted to write about African politics, so he invented new alien worlds to represent Uganda, Kenya, and Zimbabwe, and wrote about them instead.
posted
I remember a F&F about a month back where the writer described a security guard as being black. The writer rec'd comments that he migt be perceived of as racist.
Black is not a curse word. To be black is not a crime. I live where to be white is a minority, literally the black to white ratio is about 3 to 1. Every black person I know is happy to be black and refer to them selves as black or african american (very rarely). I think it is insulting to the black culture to treat them as such.
When I write about black characters I will denote they are black, and do it proudly because I am just as proud of my black characters and their nobility as I am any other. If you are describing a character's appearance and you avoid his skin color or racial characteristics then you have not described his appearance.
On that note if I say Jill is a Elf, we aren't offended. If I say Bob is a white guy, we're ok with that. If I say Ling is Chinese were are ok with that too. But if I say Joe is Black then I might be a racist?
Furthermore I have a small ezine. I reject all hate and viscious writings. I also reject all PC squishy ambiguous writings. Write what you mean, balance your directness with tact and I belive you will be fine.
Writers must have courage. Courage is only courage when you face possible repricussions. If your writing offends NO ONE what so ever what are you writing? Writing must make us think and to examine ourselves. There must be a TRUTH in your fiction, and truth is very devisive. When you write unoriginal, meaningless fluff you won't be known as meaningless writer. You won't be known at all.
[This message has been edited by JBSkaggs (edited February 11, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by JBSkaggs (edited February 11, 2005).]
posted
JBSkaggs, you make a wonderful artistic argument. I am still concerned, however, about the marketability element. I'm also still concerned about the readability element. It sounds great to write what you mean and mean what you write, but there's a formulaic problem with what you're saying. You see, what you write and what someone else reads are two different things. You think you're being bold and they think you're being racist. You want them to analyze their own feelings on such and such but they've put the book down, perhaps even because the mirror you put in front of them was too clear.
I may have to play devil's advocate a bit in this conversation. I'm very curious what people have to say and what the heart of the matter is.
posted
Thats true... but where would Huckleberry Finn have been if Twain had listened to the pro slavery folks. I see three types of writings:
1. to put money on the table, you write what the publisher desires. Avoiding any controversy.
2. to say something you want said irregardless of the backlash. knowing it may not get published.
3. A balance between the two. Knowing that a good story must have a touch of controversy (its especially good for sales) and using common sense not to piss off the people who pay your bills.
posted
There is a marketability problem in a larger sense. Science fiction and fantasy readers are, to a large extent, nerdy white kids who like reading about nerdy white kid problems, problems which may or may not have to do with the fact that the characters are white.
With a black protagonist, or even a woman protagonist, if the author going to be honest, it's going to have to deal with race and gender, and all of that may bore those nerdy white guy readers to death. Octavia Butler is an extraordinary writer. She really is because she can write with such a severe eye that she can make those same nerdy white guys care about characters whose problems essentially stem from their race and gender, and it's because she writes her characters with a startingly deep eye. In other words, if you are going to write with women or black protagonists, you just have to be one and a half times as good of a writer.
[This message has been edited by Tanglier (edited February 11, 2005).]
posted
I would not think a writer is racist just because she points out that the character is black.
I do lose patience, however, if the description of the character stereotypical. Some may argue that, hey, too bad, that's just what the character looks like, this is truth man. Well... no, YOU made up the character, so why not make his features, expressions, actions, etc. less stereotypical?
I would not shy away from a story that involved race relations, however, it has to be intelligent... You have to show the struggle within the characters... For instance, if you do have a character that is racist and you want us to grow to like the character, show us how she strugles with it, how she sees the world and why, and how her view changes.
[This message has been edited by Shi Magadan (edited February 11, 2005).]
posted
You read my mind when you posted this thread Christine,
I have been thinking about a similar race related problem most of the week.
In one of my current works, I wanted to make my POV character a young, black woman, but I was having trouble finding ways to subtly include race information. I didn't want to just say, "Dara was of African ancestory", or try something ultra-clumsy like having her (as the POV character of all people) stop and think about the color of her skin. I tried two versions where I had another character comment on it, but it seemed a sham in one instance and a little offensive in another. So, I tried some other things, but it always sounded like I was calling special attention to her race.
Then I started to question myself about my intentions behind making her a black woman. I realized that the only reason I had decided on it was because she was inspired by a friend from college. Since that friend was black, I had made my character black also.
Then I asked myself - In this case, does her race really play an integral role in the story, or is it just an interesting feature like her hair color or eye color? I realized that I really didn’t plan to do anything special in the story that would require any special notes on her appearance, culture, race or heritage. So then I had to make a decision, do I want to make her racial background a key element of the story, or not? I really didn’t want the story to be about race, so I decided not. I removed the references to her race and appearance and the story worked much better. In my head she is still the same character, but because I didn’t really address race or appearance, then the reader is free to place his or her own “residual self image” on the character. I think if we keep the character vague, as far as appearance goes, then they should appeal to anyone who reads about them. I think people who like to read are pretty imaginative, they can figure out exactly what the character looks like on thier own. If for some reason I really need the character to have a distinctive feature or heritage or background, then I can include it for the welfare of the story and the reader will just have to adapt. As far as marketability goes - I think a publisher will buy a good story, regardless of what race or gender the characters are.
[This message has been edited by NewsBys (edited February 11, 2005).]
posted
I likewise decided to leave one character's 'race' unstated. Too many were saying they wanted to see more regarding the effects of an "interracial" (as if there were more than one race other than the human one) marriage in a 'southern' state (as if every place in the south would react the same).
But that veered far from where the story needed to go, it'd be a distraction. But I'm sure I'll hear, why does she look like?
posted
I think the question is, what are you writing about? What are you trying to say?
If you want to preach from the pulpit and pound your podium, then you're going to offend people.
If you want to tell a story that includes people who are racist or oppressed or otherwise, then that's fine.
The point is: Does the narrator simply give the reader a view into a world where the reader can make their own decisions, or is the narrator preaching? Is the narrator trying to "make a point"?
I think you can write about anything...ANYTHING...if you do it well and avoid narrative intrusions. But that's the hard part, isn't it?
So no, it's not offensive to describe someone as black. Octavia Butler does with her characters. It's, as Shi stated -- once you've told us a character is black, or indian, or hispanic, do you then present us with a real person, or a steretype?
posted
The whole thing is a minefield. I have noticed that the person's cultural heritage depends upon thier writing. If a writer is a black guy he can write what he wants and suffer no concequences. Should I write something similar I'd be hunted down for my work.
The way societies going today the only person I can either write about or have a joke about is the white heterosexual guy, everything else is banned. Daft really.
I did come up against one guy who said I couldn't order a black coffee as is was offensive to him. So having asked him what I should call it I was told a coffee without cream. I nailed him on that one as cream have both been used to describe colours and as such quoted him back that "it was offensive to me." It wasnt but theres too many people taking political correctness to far.
The way I write it as far as Im concerned is fine, just so long as the writer doesnt stick to stereotypes.
posted
Racism exists. I believe it is wrong. I also believe that prejudice in general is dangerous.
However, bending over backwards, trying to be as PC as possible is tedious and enough give a person an aneurism. Just thinking about all the "do's and don'ts" of "race relations" is giving me a headache.
There is always a danger in writing that your words will be misconstrued. That's one of the many reasons to get your work critiqued, so that your words equal your meaning as much as possible.
If you could just as easily change a black character and make them white (or hispanic or oriental or polynesian...) and vice versa, without changing the "racial tone" of the story, then is there really an issue.
Ultra PC is a mess that is hard to handle. It leads in the same direction as zero tolerance.
posted
I was just thinking...the direction this topic is taking is interesting. I mean, think about it. The first thing people do when race is mentioned is defend themselves. I didn't even specifically ask about racism, although it's certainly in the scope of my original question, but it's the first place people's minds went...that and political correctness.
I think steretyping is a natural function of the human mind. I think this after taking a semester-long graduate course on that very subject. Our brains classify and categorize to make things simple. Steretyping is not percisely the same thing as racism, but they are similiar animals. Now, I wouldn't use that research to defend firing a guy because he's black or worse, but before you can address any issue you have to understand it's heart: The heart of racism comes from the basic human desire to classify, categorize, and belong. Belonging tends to bring with it a sense of other people not belonging, and a sense of wanting to help your own group.
What does this mean for writing? Well, not much in practical terms. I was just throwing something out there for cannon fodder.
Let's try to get a little more writing specific then:
1. How do you handle a racist character, especially if you don't mean fo rhim/her to be the bad guy? (It's easy to make him/her the bad guy.) 2. Do you use race-sensative terms at any point in your narrative, even in dialogue spoken by a racist character? 3. Do you shy away from putting minorities in your story so you don't have to deal with it? (There seems to be a yes coming here...)
Now, I know that there are some things that aren't ok to do when it comes to race. There are things that cross a line in reader's minds and in publisher's minds. Of course, you can always write just for you but let's pretend, for a moment, that we're not. Let's pull apart some shades of gray.
posted
Christine, I see several possibilities on how to handle the likeable racist character.
One -- The character is old and stubborn, but no one really takes him/her seriously. You could even use him for comic relief. For example, an old Chinese woman that hates the idea that her grandson is marrying a white girl... (I realize this can be taken as a racist statement, but remember, China is traditionally an isolationist nation, indeed, the word for "China" in Chinese means the center of the world, or indeed, just simply The Center)
Two-- the character is not the main character, but rather a close friend of the main character, who in turn is not racist at all. The racist character, however, has other noble attributes and perhaps even skills that necesitate his/her existance in the plot line. The racist character is likeable by association, because he/she is helping the main character, whom we happen to love. But, at the same time we see the main character influence the racist, and so, the racist character's view gradually shifts through the story and he becomes more tolerant.
posted
Here's one way to clarify race: names. People named Ichiro and Miuki are probably Japanese. People named Deron and Shandra are probably black (although most blacks have names like John and Mary, at least based on a genealogy I looked at). Also, if the viewpoint character notices a black man, the viewpoint character is probably white; a black would probably just notice a man.
--
1. How do you handle a racist character, especially if you don't mean fo rhim/her to be the bad guy? (It's easy to make him/her the bad guy.)
I tried doing this and got some negative reaction, might be just the reviewer. I had someone making a stupid comment about blacks. The reader thought even making fun of racism would offend people. She might be right. (Huck Finn.)
2. Do you use race-sensative terms at any point in your narrative, even in dialogue spoken by a racist character?
I won't use the rough ones. Sort of like cursing: I tone it down ("****in'" becomes "freakin'"; "mother-****er" becomes "muthah"), and even then, sometimes, I have to use it. In my WIP, I have one occurrence of the N word. I'm spelling it "n---."
(BTW, the *'s above are from the site, not me. Hope it doesn't send me an automated naughty message.)
3. Do you shy away from putting minorities in your story so you don't have to deal with it? (There seems to be a yes coming here...)
I find it too much fun to make different characters. I did make a Jewish character Gentile to avoid getting in trouble. But her Jewishness wasn't that important anyway. I found to my delight on critters.org that nobody was offended by a gay character in a story, and one even said, thank you, thank you, for having a gay character at all! He was a loser, but then again so were the other characters in the story.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited February 11, 2005).]
posted
What would a black seeing a white guy by default just notice a man?
No matter where you go everyone notices what race someone is. its part of tracking who is who. Some have preconceived negative judgments (racism) while others are open minded.
posted
I think the intention was: if a black man sees another black man, the colour wouldn't be an issue, he would only recognize another man.
*****
I haven't really had any cause to write about race in anything to this point. I have used naming to help establish ethnicity in cultural specific pieces.
Most of my writing doesn't involve minorities (visible or otherwise), mainly because I have not been exposed to a large number of minorities. If the first "rule" of writing is to write what you know, then it doesn't make sense for me to go out of my way to include racial or ethnic elements.
The older I get and the more places I live or travel to, the more these things make their way into my personal world and the more they are likely to make their way into my created worlds.
posted
" if a black man sees another black man, the colour wouldn't be an issue, he would only recognize another man."
One of the most fascinating things I discovered while taking the course on Steretypes and Prejudice that I mentioned, is that this is entirely not true. In this culture, at least, (I can't speak to Asian or African cultures) everyone, whether black, white, or asian, defaults "person" to white male. It was some unpopular research findings, let me tell you.
Edit: Of course, these are statistically significant tendencies, not hard-and-fast rules. I'm sure there are people who don't think this way, but the results were poignant.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited February 11, 2005).]
posted
It's been a while since I read it, but does anyone remember specifically how John Grisham handled race issues in "The Pelican Brief".
I vaguely remember the reporter (can't think of the character's name) who was white, meeting a Whitehouse informant who was black. They met in a cafe frequented entirely by blacks. It was all from the reporter's POV and he specifically remarked on the colour issue internally and I think also in dialogue. It wasn't derrogatory or rasist, but given the high level of tension already established in the story, putting the character in an unfamilliar setting where he felt conspicuous added to the tension.
That's all I remember from the scene, but I can't think of how he actually broached the subject.
posted
If a man is black, and he sees another black man, does he recognize this fact? Yes. Why? It depends on the black man looking. If he is from a getto enviornment, he would might be concerned if it is a drug dealer, gang member, or someone who could possibly be a danger. Of course, if it is a black man who was dressed in a suit and appears successful, then the black man in the suit is an outsider.
The problem is, it has nothing to do with race as much as it has to do with mentality. A friend of mine gave me a few numbers, which I have problably jumbled, but blacks are about 15% of the us population, but they make up about 45% of the prison population (and my friend is black). Is the problem because they are black? No, it is the way they were raised, and the environment they were raised in. My friend had to explain a few concepts to me several times before I could grasp them, but it is a different mentality. If I walk into a bad section of a city, I am a target...why? Because my skin color, and in reverse...the blacks in that bad area become muggers. This is all stereotyping, but it goes both ways.
One major reason for the politically corect craze is because it is easier to create an excuse than find a solution. My black friend could have been one of the criminals running around selling drugs and killing people...but he was raised in a decent home with parents that insisted education was more important than anything else. They wouldn't let him use race as an excuse for improving himself. If I sound bad, it is amazing to hear a black male talk about other blacks in such a manner.
So if your main pov character is black...which kind? Where were they raised? Inner city? A nice subberb? Racism is not limited to any race, and there is racism happening between the same race. In Iraq you have various religous groups that hate each other...but they are all from the same basic "race". I think the boundaries should be based on how the story portrays the character, and based on why that character has those beliefs. If a pov character is black and hates whites, then it is highly probably he was raised in the getto. Unless the portrayal is badly innacurate, it shouldn't come off as racist.
I remember reading an article about Andre (Mary) Norton. She is one of my favorite authors. I never understood why anyone would name a girl Andre...well they didn't. Back in the 50's...60's, can't remember when she started, women didn't write scifi. No one wanted to publish scifi writen by a woman, it wouldn't sell. So Andre became her published name. I have a hard time imagining the predjudice back then.
Racism exists, people just want to pretend it doesn't. Stereotypes apply, even when people don't like them.
posted
I approach it from a narrative POV standpoint. If there is a reason that the POV character or narrator would notice, then mention it. If not, don't, because that means that you are the only one noticing it.
Black v. white, I'm one of those essentially color-blind people most of the time. It can be an embarrassing failing in our highly race conscious society. It probably comes out of being miscegenated myself, it screws up my race radar or something. For me, "Black American" is a cultural group, one that I find about as tolerable/tolerant as the Taliban. Of course, I feel the same way about the "White Supremacist" type and similar cultures. But I simply haven't met or seen as many of them. For me white supremacists are a pretty insignificant evil, I do know that they exist (from a certain amount of personal experience), but they don't seem to have a large influence on the larger society, the way that blaxpoitation and feminiskys do.
Most of the people I've known with significant African ancestry aren't "Black" (of course, the one marrying my sister is perilously close to being French, but I kinda figured she'd hook up with a French guy sooner or latter, so a French-African is definitely a step up).
I'm allowed to hate the French, they've persecuted my ancestors for a thousand years. And they persecute me personally all the time.
Anyway, ignoring the digression, most people I've known really don't think that it's very important whether or not you have a lot of traceble African lineages. And it also doesn't count for much what actual shade of brown you're skin tends to maintain (unless you're one of those poor frecklers). Modern Americans judge race by cultural affiliation. And you can't tell that just by looking at a character's skin tone. By presuming that you can, you violate POV and leave yourself open to (entirely accurate) charges of racism.
There are better and more interesting ways to note that a character is "Black" or suffers from some kind of racist opression if either of those happen to be part of your story. There are also ways that don't reveal a fundamentally racist understanding of the problem of racism. Racism doesn't occur because heterosexual white males are genetically predisposed to hate anyone who has darker skin (nor is the reverse isn't true, the fact that over 60% of "White" southerners have discernable African ancestry doesn't stop racism--though it does give Bill Clinton about as much claim to being a "Black" president about as much weight as Hillary's bid to became a "woman" president ).
posted
No matter how "PC" you write a story, someone somewhere is going to have a problem with it. That's why I decided a long time ago to not worry about this stuff. If a character needs to be black then they are black, if they need to be white then they are white. Ultimately, it comes down to how well you write the character and the story.
Do you need to point out the character's race to the reader? I'm of the belief that race should be pointed out only if it has bearing on the story or naturally develops in the story. Just blatantly pointing out a character's race for no reason is just bad writing.
How do you point out race? An age old favorite is, how do other characters react to them? How do they react to other characters of the same race? One thing I've noticed in most all the races is they will speak to other people outside of their race one way but will interact with people of their own race a completely different way.
How far is too far? I can't answer that question. I can tell you I would never read anything that disrespects another culture. On the same vein, I would not read fluff writing in which the author has obviously sacrificed reality to PCism.
One thing is for certain, you need to know your stuff. If you are going to write about a race you are not apart of, one way to overcome writing about a sterotype is actually getting to know people of that race. There are some shared characteristics of people within a culture but on the whole everyone is different and your writing should reflect that.
Anyway, wasn't there another thread about this some time ago. I swear I saw it.
posted
A Jew reviewed my story in which I had life as a game the gods play, and I showed that based on the Holocaust, if it was, it was a pretty sick game and the gods are wrong. She said, "You should tell _your_ story the best way you can, but be aware, no Jewish publication would ever run something that suggested the Holocaust was a game. They'll think it's offensive."
So I guess I won't go for Jewish publications. Damn. I could have used the Rwandan genocide, but the cultural divide was too great.
posted
I've got a story idea which involves a nasty person who enjoys tormenting and killing cats. Horrible stuff he does. I have no intention of getting graphic with the gory details of cat killing, but in the back of my mind I worry that someone is going to think that I actually condone this behavior just because I can conceive of it happening. I don't condone it it all... I like cats. I like all animals, really. But I need this character to be a real piece of crap so that the story works.
I won't let this trifling worry stop me from writing the story. I would prefer people to be able to separate reality from fiction, but I realize that I can't help what people think of me for writing it -- but since I haven't written it yet, I'm getting way ahead of myself.
posted
I don't post often here but this one has come up in my own writers group.
To be honest I find it silly. OK, if I am writing a story from author voice then I am going to be careful what I say--PC and all that.
But when you write characters--character dialog and character thoughts--
You need to be true to the character.
Who's going to believe a member of the Klu Klux Klan facing the sheriff that says: "Those African Americans don't belong here."
I'd toss the book. We all know what that Klan member would say. So say it--it's not you, it's the character and good characterization makes for a good book--characterization that is true to life.
I know writers who are turning themselves inside out to be PC, and all their characters end up being PC as well. And some of it makes no sense --as the Klan example above.
If I am reading I want to know the character's race. It gives me background and insight into who they are. No matter what the PC people say--your race has a lot to do with your background and who you are now.
And it does with your characters. be true to your characterizations and you can't go wrong. The writing will be stronger for it, tour characters more real, and your story more true.
posted
This is why I have chosen Fantasy as my speciality. Race relations is a major theme in fantasy. You can step back and discuss sensitive racial things but it's not Black guys and white guys it's Elves and Dwarfs. Sure there are real Dwarfs in the world but they don't usually Identify with Gimli and such. Even there are times when White Humans and Black Humans have conflicts but I rarely hear about the authors being racist. Also there is something that bugs me, Sometimes I talk about a mexican friend of mine and everybody calls me a racist. I take it offensivly that Mexican has become offensive. The guy was from Mexico and last I heard returned there, he was never . Of course I understand how it has become taken like that. Argentinians for instance hate being called Mexican. Just as if I were in England and sombody called me Canadian. I've got Nothing against Canada but I'm American.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Well, just because "North American" includes "Canadian", that doesn't mean that the reverse is true. It's a set thing.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:...in the back of my mind I worry that someone is going to think that I actually condone this behavior just because I can conceive of it happening.
HSO -
I don't know how you would even avoid that. I had it happen to me with a story about a guy who was going to kill himself. Two folks that I let read it became concerned that I meant to kill myself. I had a hard time convincing them it was just a plot device, not my plans for the future.
I recently read a crime thriller by a very well known writer. I was a little disturbed by the techniques she used in the book. The present tense I could handle after a bit of adjustment, but the Omni POV just confused me. I wondered why she did it. The villain would have been much more frightening if she had actually gotten inside his head and let him speak for himself in 3rd person limited. As it is, the reader watches all sorts of brutal things happen, while being far removed from the mind of the killer. There are only little snatches of their thoughts peppered here and there. I wondered about it for some time before I realized that she might have been worried that readers would think she fantasized about these horrible things. So she ruined and trampled all good story-telling techniques just to avoid being labeled a monster.
Don't let that happen to you. Let the characters do what they need to do. Tell the story to the best of your ability and don't hold back or worry about what people will think of you personally. Most of all, don't try "tricks" to keep people from thinking about you. All the author I described above did was put herself in the book even more by acting as the Omni Narrator.
quote:I've often puzzled over that phrase. To me Canada is in North America and thus American. I'm not offended or anything... just puzzled...
But perhaps an actual Canadian can field that one...
When I was younger (probably about 8 or 9), I used to think along the lines, "Why are people from the US known as Americans? I'm from North America, too."
As I grew up I just got used to the fact it is easier to say I'm a North American or Canadian rather than quibble over that particular area of semantics (and I usually enjoy quibbling over semantics ).
Besides, what else would you call people from the United States of America? Uniteds, Statesmen, U.S.ers...
Americans is probably easiest.
Of course it isn't just North Americans who might shorten their continental affiliation to "American". Because there is both North and South America, it is important to use the full continent (if that is what you are referring to). There is no confusion which continent you are referring to if you say someone is European or African or Asian or Australian, but American is not specific enough. (Did I mention I like quibbling over semantics ?)
To get back closer to the topic...
If you go out of your way to ignore racial and ethnic issues by not including anyone of a differnt culture or visible minority, is that a possible form of racism -- prejudice by exclusion?
quote:If you go out of your way to ignore racial and ethnic issues by not including anyone of a differnt culture or visible minority, is that a possible form of racism -- prejudice by exclusion?
I guess it all depends on the writer's motives, the type of stories they tell, their level of skill... There are quite a few questions that would have to be answered for me before I would jump to the conclusion that they are being prejudiced. But that's just me. I like to look at all the possibilities before thinking something that negative.
I think never including or never attempting to include people of other races/cultures limits a person as a writer.
As far as worrying about what readers think of writers who write about questionable things, I agree with whoever said that it was unavoidable. Despite what you see on tv, most people who read are intelligent enough to seperate fact from fiction and are able to seperate the work from the writer. Some pretty horrible things happen to children in some of Stephen King's books but I don't think he hates children (at least I hope he doesn't seeing as he's got a couple), I think his writing is just a reflection of things that happen in real life.
Write your stories to the best of your ability, using the best techniques available for them.
posted
<Two folks that I let read it became concerned that I meant to kill myself. I had a hard time convincing them it was just a plot device, not my plans for the future.>
My wife will read a story and will say, When you did or said this or that. Then I have to correct her. I didn't do this or that. The point of view character did or said that.
Perhaps we need to put disclaimers on our stories: The following characters you are about to read do not necessarily reflect the views, deeds, or future plans of the writer.
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited February 14, 2005).]
posted
Stephen King did make me wonder about his motives when he wrote the group sex scene with the preteens and early teens in IT. Going into pretty deep detail. It bothered me as a kid and confuses me even more now as to why the scene is even there.
Posts: 451 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Canadians usually gag at being referred to as Americans. While the point about being 'North American' is one we've all quibbled over before, the world equates American with the US.
It is a defining aspect of the Canadian psyche that we are NOT American in exactly the same way that Poles are NOT Russian or the Japanese are NOT Chinese. It is the curse of any smaller nation living next to a larger nation with superficial physical similarities.
As stereotypes go, Americans are not viewed favorably in many parts of the world, whereas (again within the confines of the sterotypes) Canadians generally are. Unfortunately, people tend to judge strangers by the parameters of any visible stereotypes they can apply - at least, at first. So there should be no surprise that a person would hasten to correct a mis-identification that might be less favorably viewed than the more correct one.
Besides, such a correction allows us to engage in our second favorite past-time: America bashing. (Which is as much sour-grapes as anything else.)
quote:Stephen King did make me wonder about his motives when he wrote the group sex scene with the preteens and early teens in IT. Going into pretty deep detail. It bothered me as a kid and confuses me even more now as to why the scene is even there.
His motives--it still bothers you doesn't it? It still disturbs you, doesn't it?
And I think he said in On Writing--sometimes there is no motive, it just is--or some such. Been awhile since I read On Writing.
Even Card was accused of hating women because of one of his stories in Cruel Miracles. Can't remember the story, but in it one character cuts off a woman's breast, thus Card must hate women.
Sometimes we write just because that's the way the story came to us. And those who search for the motives of the author are going to find what they want no matter what we say.
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I think that you cannot judge a writer's morals by the characters in their stories. Books/stories would be pretty dull if they were peopled only by saints and people running around doing random acts of kindness.
A writer can have many motives - many goals - when writing but a villainous character is not the same as a corrupt writer.
Stephen King, by all accounts, is a pretty together guy that has managed to be married for decades and gives buckets of cash to charity. I have no reason to believe that he espouses child sex because the charactersin *It* used it to strengthen their bond.
The reader has to decide what characters they like or dislike, what actions they are agree with or disagree with, and what they think of the results. A character that is perfectly moral is better suited to walk on water than be an interesting bit of fiction. 'ChelleAnn
[This message has been edited by MichelleAnn (edited February 15, 2005).]
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I think that he probably put it in there because kids will do that kind of thing. Whether he portrayed it (and the aftermath) realistically is another matter.
Card has two main works that feature the "misogynist" breast cutting theme. One is Kingsmeat, where it is handled in a matter of fact manner, the point is...er, spoiler alert here...Bc@$$ D $#pRd >>s #ows /w nb, U fer $#pRd wL ^ nb. $#pRd ^ B Nsted. In Treason (and the original A Planet Called Treason), Lanik Mueller tries to cut off his breasts, because the transexual growth is the final, irrefutable marker that he is a rad. He also has a lot of difficulty dealing with living as a woman. I feel that later, when it becomes clear that he hates all the extra arms and legs (and head, and entire other him) just as much (if not more), that his hatred of what he's becoming is put in better context, he doesn't hate becoming a woman (though he probably wouldn't like it much), he hates becoming an insane monstrosity (up to the point when he actually becomes insane, and finds it rather fun ).
Still, there is a superficial morality to a character which is largely the result of circumstances and then there is a deeper morality to a character. Bujold's Ethan of Athos is a wonderfully funny book that deals with a likable protagonist who has been raised on a planet where women are regarded as so evil that the founders of the planet went to great effort to ensure that no Athosian would ever be exposed to one (yes, that includes reproduction, which is carried out using eggs from cultured ovaries purchased off-world, with the resulting embryos being incubated in an artifical uterine environment). He honestly thinks that women are the source of all evil. But the book doesn't come across as being even faintly misogynist (it helps that Bujold is a woman), even though it turns out that one of the major characters is a woman just as frightening as anything Ethan imagines (it helps that a more important character is a woman who is clearly a fantasy male's fantasy).
But ultimately, Ethan, who holds a basic moral view utterly opposed to that of both the author and the audience, is sympathetic because it is clearly not his own view, but one that has been imposed upon him by his upbringing. The actual man that we get to know is very likeable and has a sensible moral outlook. He might not make perfect moral choices, but his failings aren't willful evil. He's doing the best he knows how.
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