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Author Topic: POD vs. Vanity
Pontifax
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Is there a difference between Print-on-demand services and vanity publishing? Should you stay far away from these? Or are they okay to publish your novel with? Can anyone with any more knowledge than me fill me in here?
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RavenStarr
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Print-on-demand can work on reference books, newsletters, and other commercial things of that nature... if you want to try using that method with your novel, then you might have some problems...
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Pontifax
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How come?

Specifically, take a look at www.coldtreepress.com....


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JBSkaggs
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Because you do not get the sales you would in a traditional book store.
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Pontifax
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Yes, but if it's a sure thing with print-on-demand vs. MAYBE POSSIBLY having someone publish your novel, wouldn't the advantage lie in doing it yourself?

Just trying to get a feel here.


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wbriggs
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My mother did print-on-demand for a book of local history. Since it was local, it was reasonable for her to market it herself, and she made a profit. I wouldn't do this, because I want people in London and Singapore to read my book.
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JBSkaggs
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The other thing is cost to the reader. I used a POD on my first issue of my magazine. Here is what I learned:

Nobody wants to shell out $20 for the exact same size book they can buy for $5 at Wal Mart or Amazon. I have negotiated with Double Day publishers for the next issue. Which I can get printed for about $3.

I have been selling e-book or PDF versions of my magazine just fine. But not a single person (including friends and family) has bought the POD.

Which do you think will sell better? $20 or $3?

JB Skaggs


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Beth
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I would exhaust the MAYBE POSSIBLY having someone else publish my novel before I considered POD/vanity.
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Pontifax
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You guys make great points. I was just curious. It would seem agonizing to have to wait as long as 6 months after just sending your manuscript to a publisher to even get an answer.
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ScottMiller
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Pontifax: There are a lot of unscrupulous POD/vanity publishers out there as well.

A good example is PublishAmerica, notorious for falling (briefly) for the "Atlanta Nights" sting set up by several SF and fantasy writers and editors. They claim to have as high a standard as regular publishing houses and brag about getting their books into amazon and various brick and mortar venues (Borders, Barnes & Noble).

What this really means is that they obtain an ISBN for the book, and list it with Ingram (the big book distributor). If someone happens to ask for your book, Ingram will order a copy from PA. That's all they're willing to do. They brag of offering a token advance of $1 but then ask for hundreds or thousands of dollars in production costs from their authors. They are also notorious for not only NOT proofreading manuscripts, but for introducing errors into the text during typesetting. And despite their "high standards," they apparently didn't even bother to read "Atlanta Nights" until the sting went public, because one chapter was "written" by a random text generator (the more traditionally written chapters were deliberately made as awful as possible). They've also been caught lying about their sales figures.

POD doesn't look as risky but you're also not going to get the readers, because it'll be up to you to promote your book.

I would not take either of these options. If something sounds too good to be true it almost always is. Don't be tempted to take a shortcut you'll regret later.

Edit: That reminds me. Many of the more unscrupulous vanity publishers (like PublishAmerica) are easily recognized by their willingness to abuse writers' insecurities by pointing out that "the big NY publishers" are too busy promoting Stephen King or John Grisham to handle Poor First-Time Writer.

This is not only sickening, it's also stupid. Publishers can't rely on the same backlist of authors (no matter how hard some of them try) because there's always someone retiring, or dying, or losing popularity, or trying to move to a less frequent publication schedule. Publishers need books to fill those slots and they can't do it solely by stealing writers from each other. They need new blood.

Look at it this way: With a traditional publisher, you're facing long odds of being published, long odds of finding an audience, and long odds of keeping an audience. With POD/vanity publishers, even the aboveboard ones, you'll have the book in print, and no setup in place for promotion and no widescale distribution, which makes it much *more* likely that you won't find an audience in the first place.

[This message has been edited by ScottMiller (edited March 09, 2005).]


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autumnmuse
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My aunt is about to sink several thousand dollars into self-publishing her own work, and expects to be making a profit within the next year. I have tried multiple times to dissuade her from this, because she has absolutely no marketing experience or connections. I think besides the cost of each book to the consumer, the huge drawback is the amount of work the author has to put into distribution, marketing, etc.
I am very saddened by my aunt's decision, and hope that she doesn't lose too much money but frankly, I think she'd do as well to flush her money down the toilet.

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JBSkaggs
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What's really sad is the great books that no one will ever know exists because they are not marketed to the readers. And because they were printed POD no publisher will touch them with a ten foot pole.

If you are publishing a newsletter or a specific book to a closed market then POD is a good choice. (Ie School Year Books, Family geneologies, local history, Engineering Results for Project X, etc) But if you are trying to make a living from the book then POD is not a viable option.


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EricJamesStone
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Basically, self-publishing only works for those who are willing to spend much of their time and money promoting the book, and even then there is no guarantee of success. And from what I've seen, it's more likely to work in niche non-fiction than with fiction.

If you want to make a living as a fiction writer -- a difficult enough proposition -- I think you're better off spending your time writing a whole bunch of novels (improving your writing with experience as you go) and hoping to eventually sell one to a real publisher, rather than self-publishing one novel and spending your time promoting it.


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RavenStarr
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OSC critizes self-publishing somewhere on this site too... give me a bit and I'll find the link...

**Edit**
Ok, I can't find it right now, and by the time I do find it, I'll probably forget why I was looking for it... so... someone else try...

[This message has been edited by RavenStarr (edited March 09, 2005).]


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Alynia
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I have used iUniverse for my screenplay and a collection of short stories - both of which would be very hard to find a publisher for. Also, at that time, it was only $100 - and I did make my money back.

However, my novels are for traditional houses.

I have a friend who published on iUniverse - Dell saw the book and negoitations began. Occassionally it does happen happily, but for most, POD (which is not Vanity) is best reserved for books that aren't easily suitable for the established market.

Vanity will buy anything (PublishAmerica would be an example of that - and also of a scam-type-notorious-bad-bad-company)

iUniverse, which will sell your books internationally, does have access to a warehouse, can get you into the Barnes & Nobles shelves and WILL reject you is a very good POD.

But then, CafePress, Lulu, and BookSurge (whom I don't recommend because even though they're $50 it looks like yuk) will print a quickie book for you.

In the end, if you've put a ton of work into your novel, what's 6-8 months? Send out multiple submissions (except to Tor and don't get me started on them! - bah!) and start your next book. Do not wait. Send the mail (include a postcard) and begin the next book.

Best of luck!

-a


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Pontifax
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What's wrong with Tor?
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RavenStarr
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I'm just guessing from reading some things, and looking at their collection of authors, but is it that they seem to be anally picky?
Not exactly a bad thing... but I can see where it can be a bit frustrating...

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dpatridge
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in that case i WOULD send to tor. if they are willing to take it, it must be very good, and it'd give me a major ego stroking

if they reject it, i can always rationalize that they are just too darn picky and therefore not take a hit to my ego at all


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