posted
Hey, folks. I was just thinking the other day, while writing a story with some good ol' fisticuffs that a discussion thread might be useful. Many of my writer friends have trouble writing CQC (close quarters combat)...specifically, weaponless fighting. I've even had one or two call me up, just to get my take on a particular scene. Not that I'm an expert (by no means)...though I have taken a few styles of martial arts and studied strategical weaknesses of human anatomy. Anyway, I wanted to get your take(s) on how hand-to-hand is portrayed in modern SF/F.
Most stories I read nowadays have very little CQC featured in detail. I'm not talking about over-the-top detail...boring detail. No, I'm referring to visually stimulating and well paced descriptions of weaponless confrontation. Most of the time it reads like:
"Bobby threw a vicious left hook that struck Mark hard on the chin."
...instead of this:
"Bobby 'knocked' Mark 'staggering with a hard left to the head [not chin], slammed a right to the body, and then dropped his hands and laughed at him.'"
-Text paraphrased from "Fighter's Fiasco" (p. 59) by Louis L'Amour
Now this is about boxing...which I do not consider a strictly tactical martial art, though it does have its advantages (and disadvantages) in that area. It still emphasizes my point.
How do you handle CQC? Detailed? Short, simple and brutal? Intricately choreographed?
Inkwell ----------------- "The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp." -Anonymous
posted
I take the tack a very personal, yet surprising, experience (heightened clarity, unique distractions, confusion of senses: - did I taste, feel or smell that impact - unexpected consequences: - an arm that loops rather than jabs, tilting or failing on ones legs - leaps and starts of slow motion, surprise at how little damage is being dealt or absorbed, at how much. If it is viewed from apart, I opt for savage, clumsy, goofy opportunistic mayhem, either cautious or reckless, as fits. I don't think that fights are viewed or experienced in clinical detail, except in phrases of action, and it's amazing how the mind wanders when the adrenaline is so focused. Social fights, even criminal fights can differ from fantasy fights because world may be in constant strife, factorsd and stakes may be supernatural. Those may take more inventory and damage description and choreography to take mere humans through why and how an action mattered.
Posts: 9 | Registered: May 2005
|
posted
I have only ever written one scene that had any close quarters fighting and it came out as follows:
quote:Marta’s hand, strangely configured, exploded against the side of his face, and fiery pain took Helmut's vision away.
Shaking his head from the force of the blow, Helmut lurched back and quickly away from Marta. With the rough stonewall behind him he cowered, one hand partly covering his face, the other held in front and open to fend her off. Following him Marta moved slowly, warily, as if in search of danger. Her expression had changed upon seeing Helmut retreat. Now with a grin of anticipation she seemed to almost feed on his fear, and reached forward once more.
Then an enormous voice erupted behind her, "STOP THIS AT ONCE!"
A large black-haired hand covered her face. Another, equally large, wrapped entirely around Marta's thigh and the two hoisted her up, quickly sideways and around and let go.
...which in retrospect, sucks. So, any advice in the area would be appreciated.
I get what you are saying and of course my response is 100% subjective but I myself simply need to know what is going on.
Even though (myself far from a "master" which I'd never want to be) it can be really hard to figure out what the heck is going on when the writer refers to things in to much a technical manner.
I imagine its worse when someone whose never studied the MA's to read something like:
"He finished the Po Dap Puai kick with a Kimura, which came just after an oompapolata"
In fact I think if I had never seen empire s b, it would probably be easier to read and perhaps more ignition for the readers imagination to just have scene settings of an LS duel rather than a mind numbing, action slowing blow by blow description.
My Example:
"...and the black cloak of the dark lord vader swirled in a hurricane of violent and powerful strokes, his red light sabre blade like electrified blood striking down the inexperienced sabre of the son of skywalker..."
I'd much rather come across that then...
"Vader swung downward then to the left, the right foot of Luke stepping back and to the left as Vader spun 180 while luke 360'd and each sword met at 10o celsius on the friggin' ricter scale...???"
posted
No CQC I've done has been published yet (though I plan to change that this fall!), but here's what I do: short sentences, describe the events and the reactions of the POV character (because he wouldn't have time to think of anything else). Something like
Jim slammed Snake's head into the wall.
It wasn't enough. Snake howled, and came at him, still holding the knife, and slashed at Jim's belly. Jim jumped back, and the knife slashed only air; by that much he'd survived.
Snake grinned.
Then he lunged -- the grin was a feint -- and
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited June 01, 2005).]
posted
Damn, I used to have a good link for this one...I'll try and find it later. Anyway, I read a good article on this question, the gist of which is this: yeah, tight POV -- just enough description of physical action to fire the readers imagination -- padded well with reactions from characters and scenery (the articles's writer recommended generally one or two sentences of padding for each action sentence, to give the reader a chance to internalize the action, as opposed to: this happened, that happened, then the other happened, then some more...) -- and controlled pacing, generally with short paragraphs.
The examples the author used made the point really well. I'll do my best to find that link.
posted
Don't use proper names for moves, i.e., full nelson, flying duck kick of death, etc.
If a character has some limb/appendage that is out of the ordinary (a hook for a hand, a claw protruding from her chest, etc) unarmed combat is not the time to introduce it.
If you start down the path of describing every little move/blow, there might be someone who will read right along and find something wrong with your description/action sequence. So, work out the action with GI Joe or Ken and Barbie.
It's amazing how little detail most people remember from a fight - adreneline can do that to you.
quote:It's amazing how little detail most people remember from a fight - adreneline can do that to you.
I like that. It fits well with the POV recommendation.
Even when reading, I don't remember much from fight scenes. What makes a fight scene good or memorable is the POV character's thoughts and reactions. One or two well placed actions is all I really need. Build the adrenaline and tension and I'll fill in the rest.
If you can imagine it, then write it down, read it outloud, then change it if it doesn't sound right to you. Or even ask someone else to read it for you, ask their opinion about it.
Here's what I wrote in "Monolith's Arrival"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James stopped in his tracks and raised his left arm and pointed it towards his opponent. A thought and an instant later, an emerald colored beam leaped from his hand and struck Tank in the chest. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me that says a lot(of course the genre is superhero/sci-fi)but it was the way I came up with it.
My two pence here.
-Bryan-
[This message has been edited by Monolith (edited June 01, 2005).]
posted
Inkwell: "Many of my writer friends have trouble writing CQC (close quarters combat)"
I'm completely opposite, I can't write large battles much at all... I avoid it like the plague... I once started a story that needed a large scale battle... didn't finish that story yet. But CQC... for me that's easy, simply because my first love of read shall always be comic books. My earlier writings actually were completely comic book based, taking many, many cues from Batman, the Crow, etc. Being that I too have studied many different styles of martial arts also makes it easier... basically when I write it I can visualize it... for some of the fights, I even go as far as try and act it out (I hate when the character insists on doing something difficult, I tend to get hurt). I've even had to completely develop a style on my own just so a character can be possible. Like the one character who at the time was name the Blade (the name was kinda lame, but he was awesome)... basically, if I could think of a place to put blades on his body, they were there: boot tips, knee covers, elbows, fingers, wrist has blade shooters (air pressure devices that shot out blades when he triggered them with the position of his wrists), then there were the basic free hand blades (katanas, etc)... I went as far as developing a complete Tae Chi based style for him... back when I was still young enough to act it out, now, it would probably kill me... In the story that I'm working on now, one of the characters was basically put into the story solely so that I can write some hand-to-hand combat scenes (because I haven't found a place for them in a while, and I miss them... and they're fun).
posted
We've had this discussion here a few times in the fairly recent past, dealing with both hand-to-hand and sword fighting.
I think the best consensus was to use enough detail to convey the relative skill levels of your opponents, while staying as much within POV as possible. Keep in mind that different people experience CQC differently; for some, time slows down -- they see and think about every little detail. For others, the entire fight is a blur -- they may have done incredible things, but they have no clear memory of what they did or how.
The only times it seems necessary to give detailed explanation of moves is when suspension of disbelief requires it, or it is central to the POV character (which is related to the first reason). If you have a 5' 3" 19 year old defeat a 6'3" 29 year old ex Navy SEAL, I have to be able to see in my head the key points in the fight that led to that defeat. Otherwise, I won't be able to suspend my disbelief. On the other hand, if you have the SEAL win, I only need a sentence or two describing the fight -- the outcome is what I would expect.
A prime example is Heinlein's Glory Road. His MC is a veteran, and an all around tough guy. But there are a few instances in which he faces seemingly overwhelming odds and triumphs. Heinlein uses a few details of weaponry and moves early on to establish the combat expertise of the character. And then, in those instances where he fights unusual enemies, he supplies crucial details about how the MC won the fights. Otherwise, he glosses over the fighting, giving just enough info to give an idea of what happened. Hope this helps.
posted
I was going to post a clip from something I wrote to give a better example, but I can't for the life of me find it... I think it's on my broken laptop (figures)...
But, as Minister basically said, the detail of it depends on many factors involving the POV. It depends on things like, the dramaticness of the fight... if you put in a bunch of details in a fight with no degree of drama intended, then it can be confusing. Second, it depends on how much the POV knows about fighting... this makes a difference for both if the POV is the fighter of perhaps a spectator... if the spectator knows enough about fighting, the details will show it, otherwise the details should be weaker (don't say more than what the POV knows). A good reference (not that anyone here is obsessed with OSC or anything, but...), you could look at the fights in Ender's Game, the details with Ender vs. Stilson, or with Ender vs. Bonzo...
posted
Damn! I was going to bring in my copy of E.G. and post 13 lines from the Bonzo scene. Card handles it quite well as I remember, I just can't remember it well (at this moment ).
Posts: 1473 | Registered: Jul 2004
|
posted
Well, a lot of that scene emphasizes what Ender is planning to do, more than when he actually does it. The only thing that happens which isn't according to plan is that Bonzo is knocked out and doesn't even experience the final blow.
posted
If I remember correctly, Ender kills Bonzo with a rising blow to the face (I assumed upon reading the scene that it was the crest of Ender's forehead...the hardest point on the human body...striking Bonzo under the nose, thrusting the cartilage into his brain). However, it is my understanding that for that particular deadly technique to work as it was portrayed in the book, the bridge of the nose must be broken first. Otherwise, the softer cartilage will just smash up against that pre-brain barrier. I could be wrong, but this was what my old martial arts instructor told me about such a technique. Regardless, it was a very well-written scene. Not so much detail that it would be ponderous reading, yet not so obscure that one would be left wanting more.
Inkwell ------------------ "The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp." -Anonymous
posted
Well, I can't say I can really add anything that hasn't been said, but I've noticed in many of the stories that I've read the CQC scenes are generally quite short--only a page or two most of the time. Yet somehow it seems to last longer than that while you're reading it.
I have also noticed that the descriptions of these scenes tend to follow a specific pattern: they all have very short sentences such as "Joe punched Rick in the face. Rick countered with a low kick." And so on and so forth.
posted
Ender struck Bonzo's nose with the back of his head, which is actually a bit harder than the forehead and is rather pointy besides. The motion was rising, but Ender was throwing his head back into Bonzo's face as he rose, and Bonzo's face was inclined down to look at his shorter opponent.
Basically, a normal human head can kill with this motion. The bridge of the nose doesn't have to be broken at all, as long as the blow has enough force to dislodge the septum (an already broken nose tends to make this much easier, but it is by no means necessary). It would be iffy to do it with a palm strike (the type of blow usually associated with this method of killing) unless you were much stronger than your opponent. But a direct head to head contact blow in full earnest is far more powerful than a palm strike, the difference between a bowling ball and a bean bag.
posted
So much has been said already to this post that if I added anything on 'style', I know that I would be repeating what was said. I can however, post how I write a scene. Obviously, I first write (or think) about the encounter (even in large scale combat). In large scale combat, I will not focus on the entire combat and the thousands of characters involved with the exception of maybe a paragraph or so bringing the combat into the scene and why the combat exists. Short and brief if possible. During this large scale combat, I will bring my main character into the scene giving detail on his experience (or sometimes inexperience), and write some short bursts of action showing his experience. Again, I focus only on the one character and maybe an ally or two that comes into the scene(seen through his eyes of course). I too have some Martial Arts training and can visualize an attack by a protagonist or antagonist or defense by both. These I set up in my head again(the encounter, the set-up...). Once I feel the encounter is good in my head, I hand write it with pencil on legal pad. I write the whole scene including any small movements with eyes, head, feet, hands, fingers, weight shifting, stepping, anything that brings the combat to its start. Once its written in its entirety, I re-read it making sure it is the same as I visualized. If I have to make changes in clarification, I don't erase, I line through it and make a note above the line just so that the change does not escape me but I do not go any further. With a clean sheet of paper, I re-write everything to that point of the change. Sometimes this can be a little time consuming but I do it because I make a changes in places that I missed. After the changes have been made, I read through the entire scene again, making sure that every movement is plausible by acting it out. I don't want my character to bend his arm in such a way that it could break on its own or cut his ear off with his sword and heaven forbid, he poke his eye out. After I find the combat plausible, I again re-write it to a clean sheet, shaving unnecessary elements that make the combat drag---small movements, weight shifting, etc., or I refine them making them faster than they appear, especially if I feel that they are necessary elements in the combat. If I may make a suggestion on referance material, it would have to be some martial arts magazines or self-teaching books. Most have some great pictures and not to forget some great explanations of 'style'. Years ago, I ran across a magazine that used to publish fictional (martial arts)stories. The combat scene to this day still sits with me (certain parts of it). I still have the magazine, so if I need to refer back to it, I can. I can't say for sure that the Magazine still publishes stories. By the way, that magazine was Inside Kung Fu. --Raymond John Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2005
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
Muogin
).
