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Author Topic: Evil magical powers
mythopoetic
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ok, so i'm in the middle of planning this story, and I have a character who stumbles upon these supernatural powers he doesn't understand and can't complain. Now, it just so happens that these powers are evil and will destroy him in the end, but he doesn't know this yet. There are also others with similar powers out to obtain his. In the story, he ends up fighting them (employing his own powers) in the hope of destroying this "evil". In the end he gets rid of the powers through this whole soul-wrenching experience (I don't know if I want to give out too much info yet). Now I'm facing a conundrum. I don't want the message of the story to be "evil is ok as long as the result is good" but that's what it's seeming to me. How can I work this out?

It might be helpful to understand the nature of the powers. They are supernatural in origin, and demonic. The way one gains these powers is by forcing someone else who has them to submit to you either by killing them or by placing your foot on their neck (Ancient symbol of defeat in the ancient middle east) The powers then travel from them to you. Most of this character's enemies don't bother about the neck thing, they're more than happy to kill you outright.


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Tom
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The answer is Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series.

The male side of magic is tainted, and all men with the gift eventually go insane.


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EricJamesStone
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quote:
Now I'm facing a conundrum. I don't want the message of the story to be "evil is ok as long as the result is good" but that's what it's seeming to me. How can I work this out?

It's just another version of "The end justifies the means." And most people believe that on some level. The real question is whether a particular end justifies a particular means.

I think you're OK, as long as the price the hero pays for getting rid of the powers is high enough.

quote:
The way one gains these powers is by forcing someone else who has them to submit to you either by killing them or by placing your foot on their neck (Ancient symbol of defeat in the ancient middle east) The powers then travel from them to you.

There must be another way to gain the powers, otherwise the math doesn't work out. If the only way to gain the powers is to take them from someone who has them, no one could have gained the powers in the first place. And unless you start out with a whole bunch of people with the powers initially, the fact that one with the powers can gain more by taking them from someone else would rapidly concentrate the powers in just a few individuals.

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wbriggs
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My main thought is, don't avoid the issue. Plunge into it. It's been done before, because it's so gripping, and nobody's ever really solved this quesiton! It may take you somewhere interesting.

Frodo had to get up close and personal with evil, and it wounded his soul. (To me, this is less interesting than some other takes : )

DS9 episode: Sisko can participate in a forgery to trick a neighboring power into joining us in a defensive war. This will also involve arming a terrorist with WMD materials; covering up murder; paying bribes . . . or he can keep his moral standards, and watch the Federation be destroyed.

When France surrendered in WWII, Churchill urged France to give the UK its navy (rather than giving it to the Nazis). France responded by ordering its ships into port, where the Nazis could take them. While France stood down in its war against Germany, Churchill blew up the French navy. What else could he do? Although destroying ships full of sailors that were friends a few minutes ago certainly isn't nice.

You might play with what it means for magical powers to be evil. In the real world, usually, power is neutral. But in your story: how about the power to brainwash? Necromancy? Human sacrifice, to gods that will grant powerful favors? I wouldn't be content to have magic that was just evil because the author says so. Let it be something that's evil for a reason.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited June 06, 2005).]


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Survivor
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Well, I can't say much one way or the other about the fictional examples...I mean, we have no other sources.

But exactly what is wrong with blowing up the French Navy? Even if you accomplish nothing else, you've blown up the French Navy. That's like, a time honored tradition for the British

My own belief is that "means" don't exist independently of their "ends". Whether an action is good or bad depends entirely on what it actually accomplishes. Note, I believe that you have to include all the consequences in your tally. Many types of actions have serious long-term consequences even if the immediate effects seem good.

Shooting at the navy of a nation that has (for whatever extraneous reasons) just joined an enemy effort to destroy your nation and your way of life is not usually counted as a bad thing. Sure, the immediate effects of shooting enemies are bad, but the consequences of not shooting them are quite a bit worse (unless you happen to already be on the wrong side).


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NewsBys
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Mythopoetic - To me your story sounds like it has a message of - Evil power, although sometimes effective, can exact a heavy price. Still, even if it is used, redemption is possible.


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mythopoetic
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Well, eventually in the story, the hero comes across something called Nimrod's Curse. As I said before, these powers are demonic in origin (demonic from a judeo-christian background) After Babel fell, satan gifts the Engineers who built the tower of babel with these 'gifts' because they were the ones really behind it all. Nimrod was just a figure head. The idea was that through competition and a sort of supernatural 'natural selection' throughout the ages, one man would eventually control all of the power and would become satan's 'antichrist'. So the point is for less and less people to have these powers, and the strongest to survive and dominate.

The hero doesn't know this however.


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Elan
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I tend to operate from the standpoint that power is power, and the evil/good nature of it depends on the intention of the wielder. Nuclear bombs are just nuclear bombs. Inherent into themselves, they are neither good nor evil. But some powers are too destructive, too all consuming; and shouldn't be used.

Evil, when all is said and done, is an exaggerated form of selfishness: "I want power, I want land, I want to be in control." It is the user's motive that makes it evil or not.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited June 06, 2005).]


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Jeraliey
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Survivor, you absolutely crack me up.
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mythopoetic
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Well, this power is supposed to be inherently evil. It slowly consumes. It makes its users want to force others to submit to their will.
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Shendülféa
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Have you ever read the "Firebird" trilogy by Kathy Tyres? She has what is called "epsilon powers" that people gifted with them can use. Those who can use these powers are either Sentinels or Shuhr depending on how they use these powers.

These powers were created by genetic engineering and is considered by the Sentinels to be "evil." The Shuhr, however, find nothing wrong with this power and use it for their own selfish purposes, even going so far as to try and perfect that power through more genetic engineering. The Sentinels oppose this and are seeking for a way to rid themselves of these powers and to stop the Shuhr from perfecting those tainted powers.

In other words, the Sentinels have epsilon powers as well as the Shuhr, but the difference is that they are looking for a way to destroy these powers rather than a way to further the strength of these powers.

If you haven't read this trilogy yet, you might want to take a look at it. It could help you to figure out what to do with your own story.


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ParanoidRook
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Sentiments like Survivors make me glad I'm not American.
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EricJamesStone
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ParanoidRook,

I believe that Canadian law requires you to insult Americans in French, too. Please update your message with a translation.


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Elan
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I'm sorry, but if you are going to begin bandying insults around in foreign languages, you must comply with the politically correct Federal Statute of Insulting Policies and insult us in Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese, and Japanese as well. We cannot show preference for one insulting language without providing equal opportunity for all others.

Does it help that I have a friend who can insult people in Klingon?


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Beth
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It's ok, I think ParanoidRook only posts here when drunk. I wouldn't expect him to be multilingual in that condition.
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Christine
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Hmmm...I have two problems with what I've read. First, I have trouble believing that power is inherently evil. You can do evil or good things wiht it, but that is the choice of the person. You can (and probably will) feel free to disagree with me, but a demon is evil, his power is power.

As to thinking it's ok to use evil to defeat evil, that depends upon how you define evil. I'm getting a sense that we define it far differently from one another, for the reason I mentioned above, if nothing else.

For example, I disbelieve this blanket statemetn: "War is evil." War is not evil. In fact sometimes war is very very good. War is another sort of power, and it is made evil or good by the hands that manipulate it. (Of course, there is often gray area. Usually troops on both sides do bad things, but they have their individual souls to look out for.) Let's take WW II for an easy example. The evil there would have been to sit by and do nothing. In fact, let's forget the holocaust for a moment. A dictator was trying to sieze power all over Europe and take control.

Obviously, the question of whether or not a war is evil is incredibly complex and requirs a case by case look.

To be honest, I don't believe in evil all that much. I believe in selfishness. People are all, to a greater or lesser degree, selfish. Evil people are entirely selfish. Children are born selfish. They learn right or wrong based on the good or bad things that happen to them as a result of their actions.

I'm done now.


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Survivor
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What is so "American" about the simple (and pretty obvious) observation that blowing up the French Navy is a time honored tradition for the British? I'd think that it would be a thing more understood by the French and British.

At least, Letterman claimed he wasn't to sure of the significance of the gag when he blew up a miniature French frigate in his miniature of the Thames. Of course, Letterman always is pretending to be particularly obtuse about things, it's so he can use that unique facial expression of his.

Back to the subject (again). Do these powers get passed on somehow from generation to generation, or are those with the power immortal until they lose them? Also, are there any safeguards to prevent them from falling into the hands of "good"? If so, how does your hero bypass these safeguards? If not, in what sense are they necessarily "evil"?


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Blue_Rabbit
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Christine, war is always evil. People die, after all. Defending your home or your freedom is good, standing against a dictator is good, but war_is_evil, regardless the reasons. It's not like we can't fight if we ought to.
I don't know how to explain the difference to you, maybe you'd have to read some novels about WWII, not those about heroic soldiers and spies, but the real ones.
Certainly I can't arrange for you a meeting with my Grandma

[This message has been edited by Blue_Rabbit (edited June 07, 2005).]


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Christine
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You mean the ones about rape and pilaging and the time-honored attrocities that soldiers have committed since the beginning of time and are doubtless still committing today?

Yeah, I've read about them. And I stand by what I said. War is not inherently evil. Just because people die, in fact, it doesn't make a thing evil. Death is not evil. It is a part of life, merely a part we fear. I find it entirely over-simplistic to call war evil, although perhaps easier. I also find it leads to sentiments that create intolerable situations and dictators because we couldn't possibly fight back.

In fact, killing is not evil. It is a little known truth that the commandment actually translates as, "Thou shalt not murder." The difference is subtle but poignant. The easier way to explain it is that if I've killed in self defense I have not murdered and therefore done nothing wrong. More complicated is things like war, when killing is part of a greater purpose, a force or power that is often out of the hands of the individual soldiers carrying out the orders though it is also shaped by them.

No, war is not evil. Men do evil things but things and forces are nothing until they are guided by the will of men.


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Blue_Rabbit
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Well, actually not. What I do mean is cities being ruined by bombs to the ground and people dying from disinteria because there is no clean water. Bottles with gasoline against tanks, all that stuff. I admit, when it comes to war, I get more than a little bit emotional. Sure, I am the second generation that haven't seen it, but still in the place where I live there are memorial plates every second corner in the city centre.
So I don't want to make a flamewar right after I got here, but it's personal. Family issues. You know.
And I think you still can't see the difference between fighting for someone or something and war as a whole.

And one more thing, the most dangerous people are those who think that "something greater" might be more important than human lives. I know where this kind of thinking goes to. Right after war, we had a clean example.
I won't answer now, because there will be definitely a flamewar :/

[This message has been edited by Blue_Rabbit (edited June 07, 2005).]


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Christine
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I don't see a flamewar coming close to starting at all. So far, I thought we were just philosophizing a bit.

Listen, war isn't pretty for sure. It causes death and destruction. It helps the spread of diseases that would not otherwise flourish as well because men are bunked in twight quarters and do not have adequate nutrition.

But right now, we're really talking about the nature of good or evil. I was using a frankly controversial example because it's something I've thought about, especially in recent years.

You see, bad things happen. Whether or not we're at war, bad things happen. People get shot and die. People get into accidents and die. People get sick and die. Epidemics ravage entire populations and they die. We don't see a lot of that in the US, but it's still prevalent in the world. People are hungry and die. Cities crumble due to neglect or abuse.

Bad things happen and people question God. Why, God, did you let this happen? And the ministers' answers usually come something like, "The Lord workds in mysterious ways."

Not really, I say. I think he's brilliant. And that's true even when it comes to death and destruction. And for so many reasons. What if you could not feel as you did about war? What if there were no war, and so you did not have to go through that emotional reaction? How, then, can you appreciate peace? How love without hate? How joy without sadness? But more than the poet's contrasts is this: God created an ecosystem. He put men at the top of the food chain. We abuse it sometimes, but whether we do or not the planet and its beautifully planned environment puts us in check.

The three horsemen of the apocalypse come, not when man is so evil that he must be dealt with, but when men need thinning out. There are too many people settled in one place to feed them all? Enter famine. There are not enough resources for everyone and only some can have them? Enter war. But pestilence, he is the great equalizer, for not even rich and powerful men can escape him.

Death as a part of life. Cold, cruel, but a part of life. That does not mean I will not cry when I lose someone I love. That's what makes me human. Nor does it mean I won't shed a tear for those who lose their lives at war, through pestilence, or through famine. But I do not accept that the things that killed them were evil. It is not evil because it makes me sad.

Evil, in my opinion, is in the hearts of men. It exists in the actions that precipitate baseless war and needless suffering. It is in the actions of troops during war...actions they take because they can, because they won't ge tin trouble for it, and because they have power and want to prove it.

But it is not in things. Things have their purpose. Their cold, cruel purposes. They serve men and by that serving develop their nature.


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EricJamesStone
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> Evil, in my opinion, is in the hearts of
> men.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?


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johnbrown
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The Shadow knows
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johnbrown
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BTW, this sounds kind of like the Highlander with all the powers coming together.


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ParanoidRook
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Nah I only post here when I feel like raising my self-esteem by being around people with no talent or friends

I love hitting the nerve of you jewed up americans, so ignorant and gullible.

Anyway, so long you talentless losers


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Isaiah13
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We're not all americans. And it takes a whole lot more than a few bitter words from someone I don't even know to hit my nerve. Sorry to disappoint you
Bye, now.

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Beth
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I believe "jewed-up" requires a hyphen.
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Pyre Dynasty
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quote:
Nah I only post here when I feel like raising my self-esteem by being around people with no talent or friends

Like beth said, when your drunk.

(BTW the only reason I'm not going off on that jewed-up thing is because I know that you are trolling.)


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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SIGH!
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Survivor
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Now I'm really curious about what happened to Paranoid Rook. I mean, did he get a really negative critique or something? Because...I'm sorry, but "jewed up americans [sic]"? That's so grotesque it's almost funny.

Did he just get the idea that because nobody was taking his other little hints that he hates America seriously, he should mention that he hates it because it's all a big Zionist conspiracy to take over the world? Doesn't he realize that I, who have had to recuse myself from all votes on whether to exterminate the human race, have him beat hands down as the forum's resident eccentric? Of course, the French have earned a special place in my heart by persecuting my ancestors for a thousand years (quite the accomplishment, since there wasn't yet a France at back when they started)

I mean, did he come here thinking that he was going to "blow our minds" with these off topic rants? Or is he just telling himself "sour grapes" because someone shot his writing down?

I think the main clue is "talentless hacks". Somebody must have given him a really harsh critique. But I'm willing to hear evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, back on topic. I think that the discussion of whether war is inherently evil doesn't advance anything. Most of us can probably agree that war wouldn't exist if there were no such thing as evil. I happen to think the same thing is just as true of "good", and in many of the same ways, but that is besides the point. The main point is that this "Nimrod's Curse" we were talking about doesn't seem to have anything to do with war. The point is that it is the Devil's method of selecting the eventual AntiChrist. One has to remember that the AntiChrist is described as a master of ruling by persuasion and politics rather than by direct conquest. He appears to use his powers for good, but is really seeking to undermine and destroy the Church of the Lamb.

So, is that biblical description of the AntiChrist/Abomination of Desolation something that you're keeping or tossing? This goes along with my other questions (the on-topic ones in previous posts, not the off-topic ones in the opening of this one).


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mythopoetic
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Well, I am an evangelical christian, so I try to keep myself from writing stuff that goes too much against my faith. That's why I sort of have this problem too begin with. I don't want to say "It's ok to mess with demons and such if it's for a good cause." So I'm trying not to stray too far from that. Luckily, no one really knows how Satan is going to pick the eventual antichrist, so i have sort of imagined a competition like the one I'm writing about. The point isn't to give the winner ultimate power and such (although the antichrist will have much more than just physical influence) but to find a man who has the will to dominate. This will is just the right method to give him over to satan in the end. Suppose this man, after consolidating all of the powers, is contacted by satan. Suppose he foolishly thinks he can dominate satan as well, but he has to be careful about it. Therefore he agrees to serve him. (Basically, the lie anyone who deals with demons believes. They aren't controlling me, I'm controlling them.) So that's sort of where I'm going. Now, the hero gets mixed up in all this and doesn't want these powers, especially after he finds out what they really are. In the end (spoiler: stop reading if you don't want to know) he finally gets rid of them by submitting willingly to God himself who is the only one powerful enough to get rid of them.
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Blue_Rabbit
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If the powers are demonic and evil, and supposed to choose Antichrist, they should
a) slowly transform the user's conscience, corrupting him and tempting to perform evil deeds;
or
b) whatever good you try to do with them, it always twists and does more harm than good.

Either way you get a hero with "tragic dillema" and you can't say that messing with demons is ok for him.
Anyway, if Satan made these powers, he should have had some wicked purpose.
It's up to the writer if the character will somehow overcome the curse, or succumb to darkness.


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Christine
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mythopoetic, your added background and details help me to understand the situation far better. Now, nature of good and evil aside, and whether or not I agree with your moral aside, I have some advice for you.

Give in. It sounds to me like you want to write a Christian Fantasy that centers on the temptation of one who could become the antichrist. The moral of the story? Give yourself over to God for only He can save you. I think you've got it spelled out right there. If you do that, there's no way anyone can confuse your meaning and think that what he's done is a good thing. It was a terrible thing and now he must beg for forgiveness or ris losing his very soul -- indeed, risk becomming the sort of monster we all fear.

Moreover, I think there's quite an audience for such a story. Christianity truly does dominate our culture and end of the world stories involving the antichrist never seem to grow old. (Well, they do to me, but not to the rest of the world and that's what's important. )


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mythopoetic
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Thanks. That helps. I'm always running into problems when i write because I love to write sci-fi and fantasy but I have to figure out where I draw the line with my own beliefs. There's always a certain amount of "temporary suspension of belief" but I think there's a limit on how far I can go and still be true to my own beliefs.
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Christine
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You know, that could be a fascinating topic for another thread. I bet there are a lot of people who feel as you do. Science fiction and fantasy both force us to explore strange new possibilities. When we read it, we are often exposed to interesting ideas about the way things work that may be uncomfortable if they diverge too much from our deeply held beliefs.

One option is to suspend disbelief. This is a fantasy world, it does not exist, and it has nothing to do with the real world. That works to a point, but even in my fantasy worlds I will not support a moral or philosophy I abhore.

Another option is to go with it. Write your beliefs firmly into your works. This can come off preachy, but if you do it well it won't.

The third option that I can think of is more difficult for some. Without giving up your beliefs (I would never suggest such a thing), you can expand them and learn to accept other, shall we say, manifestations of God? Setting aside deeply held moral and philosophical ideals is no part of this. Rather, it is a matter of consider that maybe the God these aliens worship is actually the same God you worship. He just manifests himself differently for them. This even works in fantasy novels that have sources of good and evil that are obviously God and the devil.


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bladeofwords
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Darn.

I had all sorts of interesting things I was planning on saying, but by the time I finished reading the entire thread they had all either been said or premptively refuted.

The one thing I can say is this: Mythopoetic, I know how you feel. I spent about four hours thinking about a novel and planning out the whole story line and I had this grand point that I wanted to make, but in the end it didn't work at all and it seemed like the only conclusion was one that I didn't wish to endorse. It was painful.

I have come to the conclusion that sometimes, the point you are trying to make isn't possible, and other times it is not as you want it to be, but other times the point is hidden deeper inside your work.

I'm sure that didn't help you one bit. I was just surprised that I had had a very similar problem only the day before I read this.

Jon


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Survivor
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I'm still not sure what is inherently wrong with these powers. Saying that they're demonic in origin (even if "true", by the standards of your milieu) doesn't answer anything

I was riding the bus the other day and this guy was going on about how money was evil and a tool of Satan and all that. And I thought...okay, so I got a bit defensive.

The systemization of currancy, and of credentialization, and even of the military...I know perfectly well that these are Satan's prime tools in this world. But that's because they are powerful tools. Satan didn't invent them, we did, and we gave them to you in unstinting generousity. Even if I'm saying it myself. That's just because, if the decision were left entirely to me, I wouldn't have given them to you, or, had I done so, it wouldn't have been a generous act.

But the gifts were good. They are good. The fact that they increase the freedom and power of men to act for evil as well as for good is proof that they are true gifts.

Of course, now I'm the one getting off track

I'm just saying that I don't think that you can say "it''s demonic, therefore evil" and have the question be that neatly settled in the reader's mind. One of the core ideas that allowed Christianity to dominate the world and is still strong in most of the Christian world today is that all power is an attribute of God, and that it is misuse of power rather than power itself that is evil. This works in conjunction with the more explicit belief that man has a fallen and corrupt nature, so if men have more power than other men, they will use it to bad ends.

Also, the more purely Christian idea is that Satan and his associates cannot create anything, including powers. They only have the ability to twist and distort that which is given by God. Of course, this is consistent with the above. More to the point, it is also theologically consistent with monotheism rather than dualism. And it places moral responsibility upon man for his choices, which is the point of any religion.

So I don't think that the appeal to Christianity will work. Christianity has too long a history of serious moral philosophy. Even if most laity are largely unaware of it and many preachers are somewhat incompetent, a "Christian" work has to deal with theology on a rational basis. You can't take the pagan approach and say "my gods good, your gods stinky."


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Meenie
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Evil, imho, is within the person, not the tool.
The idea that God says money is evil is incorrect. The correct quote from the Bible is that the LOVE OF MONEY is evil.
Money holds no magical property. You do what you do with it. And you can choose to do great good with it, even if you have lots and lots of it. Or you can choose to do evil.
And there are those who do great evil because they don't have it and they want it.
(That's covered also with the "Thou shalt not covet...")
But the money doesn't cause the evil. Evil is created with intent. You can't go to court and tell the judge "I never would have killed him if someone didn't pay me all that money. What else could I do then?"
Meenie

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Christine
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The problem with that, Survivor, is that Christian teachings are truly inconsistent, especially when it comes to Satan. You'll get most Christians to agree that there's one God, that he sent a son to die for us, and that's about it. Most Christians frankly don't think deeply about their religion, nor do they understand it deeply.

Those that do, definitely don't agree that Satan is powerless. Some say he is, some say he isn't. Some say that God is the only one who controls fate but in which case, doesn't that make him evil because he lets Satan have his way? (And they have an answer to that, I just can't think what it is right now.)

As to magical powers being evil, that's a Christian teaching that goes back to the witch trials. They used the devil's powers to create their witchery. They signed a contract with the devil. They danced naked with the devil. And there are some today who still believe in witches and witchcraft. After all, the bible does say, "Though shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Christian Fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron by it's very nature, but the point of the stories are not an accurate relfection on the teachings of the Bible but rather the communication of a related moral such as, "Surrender yourself to God and ask his forgiveness." (Which, by the way, is one of the points you won't get Christians to agree upon.)


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Meenie
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quote:
Some say that God is the only one who controls fate but in which case, doesn't that make him evil because he lets Satan have his way? (And they have an answer to that, I just can't think what it is right now.

I think that the answer you're referring to is Free Will. IE: God doesn't want to be a bully and just make us all into good little puppets so He lets us choose good or evil.
He could MAKE us choose good...then we'd be puppets...
or he could destroy Satan - but that would equal the same thing by taking away our choice.
Meenie


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Ahavah
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Everyone is discussing the generality of Christianity, but Mytho is coming from the perspective of Evangelical Christianity. Christine made some good points about Christianity in general. One of the main things---even different sects of Christianity believe different things. For instance, I'm Christian and I don't even believe in Satan. (Yes it is possible, no I'm not here for a theological debate)

It seems to me that the closer this man gets to Satan (and the longer he has used these corruptive powers), the more difficult it will be to BE ABLE to turn to God in the end. At least, if the powers work the way you have them set up. (I would suggest rethinking the close allusion to Highlander. What if they stole the power by forcing the others to turn to God in their abject misery? Prayer, or even a simple "Oh, God!") Anyway, for him to be able to turn to God in the end--despite having all of the world's demonic, corruptive superpowers--somewhere in there you need to leave a window open for good. How would this be accomplished?

At any rate, so long as your hero is motivated by godly forces in the end, then one could not say that "evil is ok as long as the result is good". The end result is motivated by God. Although, I do think that makes a better point. What if evil IS ok, if it opens one's eyes and makes him realize the glory of God? Is that why evil is "allowed" to exist?

Ok, didn't mean for that to turn to a theological debate, but that's dangerously close to what ended up coming out.


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Christine
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Ahavah, you're not the first Christian I heard didn't believe in Satan. I think I remember my grandmother saying something like that, too. Of course, that was her personal belief, not the teachings of her faith (Episcopal, in this case.) Just out of curiosity, is this something you believe personally or is there a sec of Christians out there who don't believe in Satan?
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Shendülféa
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Might I ask, not to be rude or anything, why we are discussing these things when this was not what the original topic was about?
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Ahavah
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I held this belief on my own since childhood, but I have since found a church that resonates very well with my personal spirituality. I belong to a Unity church. www.unity.org

Shen--because it came up in the course of discussing the topic.

[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited June 09, 2005).]


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Christine
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quote:
Might I ask, not to be rude or anything, why we are discussing these things when this was not what the original topic was about?

You are more than welcome to ask, but I think the question is off-topic.

I'm kidding. But seriously, sometimes threads wander a bit. As long as it isn't cuasing any problems and as long as the original question has pretty much been answered, then we just kind of go with it.

Of course, if you don't think the original questoin has been answered and want to go back to it, then by all means yank us back.

Thanks for the info, Ahavah. Always good to learn new things.


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Pyre Dynasty
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Myo I used to have the same problem, I love writing and reading fantasy. And I love Mythology. The problem is that these involve pagan gods. What really helped me was a essay by Tracy Hickman.

http://www.trhickman.com/essay.html

mostly the third part.

A thing to remember in all this is that these storys are not true, that is what the word Fiction means. Jesus spoke in parables, they weren't true but they had truth in them. (of course some people will tell you they actually happened, and they could have but they didn't really need to did they?)

As to your story, I think it could work out to say what you want to say, just be sure to mention that things would have turned out better had he not taken on those powers. And perhaps you could actually have another antichrist chosen. (possibly the one he just killed, the bible does talk about him coming back from the dead) and then he battles him using the higher power from God. And personally I suggest moving this away a step from Christ and Satan, even using thinly veiled analogies. This way your story will be better recived by people who would otherwise think that you are trying to write a prophetic vision. (For example the DaVinchi Code, it startles me how much energy is being used to disprove a work of fiction.)


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mythopoetic
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I think I'd like to stick with the whole submission thing, because then I have a lot of potential for pride issues in my characters. It allows for them to become disillusioned if I want them to be, over cocky if I want them to be, etc. I think it would set things up better for the end also, because the hero is supposed to win. And if the hero was forced to turn to God then he would be defeated (which would also be a rather bad thing from my opinion to put out with my story - that turning to God is defeat? - another message I'd rather not send out to any readers this story might have).

And since the whole theology thing has come up, I guess I'll put my two cents in. As you might have guessed, I'm coming from an evangelical christian background. However, I don't think there is as much difference between different groups of christians as you claim. Now, I'm not talking about cultural difference but doctrinal differences. Typically, any differences tend to fall into doctrines that aren't that important. (for example: Is dancing godly or not? Doesn't really matter too much when it comes to salvation, but it is a difference of opinion which makes some christian denominations different from others.) There are cultural differences. For instance a hispanic church will not be the same as an anglo-saxon church or a black church, or a church with mixed attendance, but they are all equally christian and their doctrine tends to be in about the same place. Now I need to make a point here about christianity: I don't mean to offend people, but there is a big difference between christianity and popular "christianity". There are lots of people and lots of churches which claim to be "christian" but aren't. Lot's of people go to church, but that doesn't make them christians. This tends to confuse a lot of people when it comes to figuring out what christians believe, and is one of the reasons why you'll sometimes here people refer to "born again" christians to help be more specific about what they are talking about.

Just wondering, if you don't believe in satan, then how do you account for man's fall and why Jesus had to save us in the first place? The two are kind of connected.


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mythopoetic
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Also, even Jesus believe in Satan. I mean, he actually spoke to him for goodness sake. So I'm wondering how you justify that.

ok, i'm done with the theological meanderings. Back to story writing. Sorry


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bladeofwords
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I know this thread has gone on for quite some time, but I figure I might as well talk about this too. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It's about the highlander allusions. I have a concept sort of like the one being talked about here, what with the collection of auras which provide magic powers. Is this ripped straight from highlander? I've only watched about 15 minutes of one movie and didn't find it particularly interesting so I've never really learned the highlander mythos. I just don't want to do something that has so obviously been done before.

Does somebody want to explain the highlander magic system real quick?

Jon


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Ahavah
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Mythopoet, I don't at all mind sharing my religious beliefs, but I'm not sure that's what OSC intends with this board. If you're interested, we can email. I will say that, while Christian (yes, real Christian), I don't believe the Bible should be taken literally (I realize Evangelical Christians do not share this belief). It was divinely inspired, yes, but has passed through the hands of way too many men throughout the thousands of years.

[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited June 10, 2005).]


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