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Author Topic: To whom is your narrator speaking?
Calligrapher
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Obviously, the narrator is telling the story to all the unknown readers at the other end. But, when you are writing, do you imagine your narrator is telling the story to a specific individual in order to get good focus? For example, do you imagine that your narrator is telling the story to a friend standing next to him/her?

Thanks


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sojoyful
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My WIP is told in third person, by no one in particular other than me. So within the story, there is no 'narrator' per se. I have never thought that I am speaking to anyone in particular.

Does your question refer only to cases where there is an actual in-story narrator?


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Calligrapher
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sojoyful,

When writing in third person limited POV, sometimes my narration seems more like an impersonal summary or an essay rather than a story-telling narrative. I thought that by trying to imagine the narrator is speaking to someone in particular - anyone - that this would keep the narration focused and give it more of a story-telling feel.


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pantros
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Honestly, Third person limited Omni is the most immersive and most preferred.

The trap of having someone particular you are telling the story to, is that at somepoint you might break into a second person leak, (a "you" generalization), which is usually not beneficial to the immersion.

For all of my stories, I imagine a bard on stage, telling the story to a crowd.


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HSO
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I always try to use a particular narrator for what I feel is best for a story. If I have an omniscient narrator, I try to make it clear why that narrator needs to tell the story. Third-person works well for most everything. First-person is handy when a character is incredibly observant and intelligent, has lots of charisma, and is someone that readers will enjoy following throughout the tale. As to whom these narrators address, well it depends. An omni or first-person narrator can be speaking to the reader or someone other person. Third-person works very well for telling a story straight, as if the reader is watching events filtered through a character's perspective, but not quite as deeply as first-person. Third can be very deep, but it's still a voyeuristic viewpoint.


Pantros: There is a large difference between a narrator addressing the reader and second-person narrative.

Second-person is when the reader is the central character. For instance: "You walk down the path, aware of everything around you. You see an old coin and pick it up. You think it's pretty, possibly rare and valuable. And after admiring it for several seconds, you put it in your pocket for safekeeping."

Whereas an omniscient [or even a first-person] narrator that addresses a reader might look like: "She didn't like mice; they frightened her. You've met people like her before, haven't you?"

Simply putting a "you" doesn't qualify as second-person narrative. I apologize if I misread your post, by the way.


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keldon02
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Interesting question. I had no idea this problem existed.


[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited November 20, 2005).]


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sojoyful
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I must have more to learn than I thought, because I just can't see anyone speaking to anyone. I'm just telling the story. It's third person, being told from the character pov, but that skips around to different characters once in a while. I'm not sure what pov that's called.

Is it important for me to identify who is speaking and to whom before I write?


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Jeraliey
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(Off topic)

HSO, it's nice seeing you hanging around again.

(/Off topic)


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Calligrapher
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This is all very helpful to me working out the problem. I see it as the difference between a narrator standing on a busy street corner telling a story to passerbys who may only stay for a minute or two. Or a narrator who is telling a story on a stage to a captive audience. Or a narrator telling the story to one individual. Maybe its a matter of a difference in the intimacy that comes across. I know I'm getting close to working it out now that I've verbalized it and I'm getting everyone's feedback! .... Thanks
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pantros
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HSO,
not really a misread so much as my not really finding a way to address something I see as a problem in writing.

When people, try to say things like:

"No one goes into that part of town after dark if they don't have to."

by saying:

"You don't go into that part of town after dark if you don't have to."

In a thir person narrative. (hence my adding the word "leak")

I'm not 100% sure of the inapproprateness of using "you" nowadays but when I was learning, it was considered "bad".

EDIT: I certainly see little problem with a direct intentional address to the reader, if the narrative has been set up in such a familiar way as to make it appropriate.

[This message has been edited by pantros (edited November 20, 2005).]


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HSO
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It's not bad. It's simply another way of doing something. Using "you" in that fashion is colloquial, I suppose. The person speaking doesn't really mean you-the-reader. It's a figure of speech. If the narrator uses that figure of speech, or style of speaking to be more precise, so be it. There's nothing wrong with doing it. But an author must remain consistent.

For example, perhaps your first-person narrator "don't speak English good." Maybe he uses "was" where "were" is technically correct. An author needs to be careful not to slip into proper grammar, should she go for such a narrative style. In Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," the first-person narrator has certain habits of speech (for reasons it would take ages to list out). Those habits, or his style of speaking, is consistent throughout the entire book. It never drops. Not once.

So, back to the discussion, the answer is: If you have a good reason for using "you" then use it. It's not wrong to do so. In other words, know your narrator as well as any other character. (Or at least work it out when it's time to edit.)


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rcorporon
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I agree with most of what has been said above, but since I like having a large post count, I'll just offer my overall general agreement .

In my novel I am trying to keep a limited third person narrative (or whatever the style that Martin uses in Song of Ice and Fire is called).

I think that this has become more or less the standard form in spec fiction.

Ronnie


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Totty472
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Your question has made me slightly worried. I have always used talking to a general audience as narrator, unless story is specifically being told to a person. Have just finished story where no definition of the narrator's gender is apparent and they are talking generally, is that a problem?
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Calligrapher
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Totty472,

I am also learning, so please don't think you are doing something wrong if my question seems foreign to you. I'm searching for techniques that others may use to make their narration more focused. I have just come upon my own solution that I'm trying now in my WIP. This is how I've decided to approach it: My narrator is talking to my Muse. (Of course, my Muse is not identified in the story; he's just a listener.) Directing the narration to my Muse keeps my narrator true to the original creation, because the Muse created the story and knows if the narration is accurate or not. I picture my Muse sitting there listening to the narrator. If the narration is not true to the story the Muse created, he just shakes his head "no" and I need to write the passage again.

But, oh no, what if my Muse is really my Internal Editor?


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yanos
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The fact that your narrator is causing so many difficulties should be raising alarm bells. Many writers keep the narrator well hidden and just tell the story. This means you remain true to POV. Having the narrator know more means you are verging on omniscient even if you don't step over that boundary and it means you need to be careful. I'm sceptical about having the narrator intrude on the story except:
1) when it adds to the plot.
2) when it adds to the story.

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HSO
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I've been thinking about narrator choices a lot the past few days, mainly due to this topic. After all that thinking, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that you can do whatever you want, so long as it is done well.

This means you can write a story with an intrusive narrator. If it helps to visualize it better, think of the narrator for the TV Show "The Dukes of Hazzard." That's an intrusive narrator, usually reserved around scene breaks or before/after commerical breaks. You can do the same in written fiction, if you do it well.

There are times (probably many, and for some, always) when the narrator is you, the author. You've written the story in your unique voice. You're writing the story is if you were speaking it aloud... er... almost. What I mean is that you, the author, are telling the story to the reader -- only you.

So can you, the author and narrator, intrude and speak directly to your reader? Surprisingly, yes. But you better have a good reason for doing so. For a lot of readers, 99% of the time, such an intrusion won't fly with them. But you can do it, if you do it well. You wouldn't want to do it in every story you write. Rather, you could probably get away with it in only one story. After that, it might be a good idea to never do it again. I've seen this done by a famous horror writer to good effect (it should be noted that the story was written before he was famous). It can work. In the case of the famous writer, there was an apology for the intrusion but with an assurance that it was absolutely necessary. Somehow it worked in a classic Hitchcockian sense. Perhaps only good storytellers can get away with bending and breaking the usual rules and guidelines.

So, if you have reason to do something, then do it. Be confident about it and make sure you do it well. Really, your primary goal should be to tell an excellent story. There are lots of vaild ways to tell stories. Choose the one that's best for your story. Of course, to be able to choose also means knowing how stories are and have been told. So read a lot: old stories, new stories, even stories in a genre you don't necessarily like. You're bound to learn something, even if it's how not to do something.


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Calligrapher
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Thanks, HSO.

Maybe I'll finish this WIP and ask you to critique it, or even submit it to Shimmer!


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